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I just don't get it!

Old 09-19-2006, 05:39 AM
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Pattern_is_Fun
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Default I just don't get it!

Right up front, I'm on my soapbox - this is something I care about that others could care less about. It is not a popular view point at District contests, and many disagree with the thinking that if you fly a Zero, you tell the judges after the flight, just to be sure they caught it. You know the pattern better than they do (using contestant judging). We fly with honest, church-going, upstanding citizens, who would rather cut off an arm than to cheat a friend, yet I continue to hear, and see, pilots talk about "I got away with that one", meaning they flew something wrong and it was scored. I just don't get it. It is interesting that the trend seems to be, the better pilots, the ones that want to fly Pattern in a precision manner, are the ones that tend to agree with telling the judge - they don't want to take a score they don't deserve. Others don't care. I'm sure it will never change.

http://www.nsrca.org/d7/precision.htm

sc

Old 09-19-2006, 06:11 AM
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klhoard
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

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You need to change your RCU handle. . .
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:55 AM
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

That's all very well with a wrong manouevre, but one man's snap is another's fast axial roll, and one perfect spin entry is a forced entry to someone else,etc etc etc.
Just enjoy the flight,and leave the judging to the judges IMHO.
Old 09-19-2006, 08:26 AM
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jlkonn
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

I like your idea of the zero gestapo...I mean zero judge you propose in the link you posted.
Maybe, to help identify him at the contest, he could wear the same thing the little guy used to wear on Laugh In?
Veeeeeerrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy interesting....

JLK
Old 09-19-2006, 09:12 AM
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Razor-RCU
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

Church-going? You lost me when you seem to indicate that "church-going" lends to "honest".

Sorry
Old 09-19-2006, 09:18 AM
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klhoard
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

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Yes, exactly what we need. . . more judging assignments at a contest. I really like the idea that the ZERO judge come from your own class.
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Can you imagine the levity at an awards ceremony where the second place guy gets beat by one zeroed maneuver. . . that was given to him by the first place pilot!!!
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Old 09-19-2006, 11:20 AM
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4u2nv-RCU
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

I cd'ed an IMAC event and liked the way they handled it. Both judges after the flight have to agree on the 0. Their scoring program wont let you enter a 0 for one judge and not the other. Makes the judges at least discuss a zero and make sure it is valid....made for some interesting conversations but all in all not a bad idea.....


Old 09-19-2006, 11:55 AM
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radray
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

"Their scoring program wont let you enter a 0 for one judge and not the other."

What if the pilot exceeds 10 points in downgrades instead of a mandatory zero manuever? One judge may observe different downgrades than another judge, and therefore yield two different scores with one being a zero and not the other.

For large contests such as the Nats it might be a good idea to have a zero judge, but may be impractical at a local contest. Recently I witnessed a contest where a contestant did not perform a half roll in one maneuver, then performed an addtitional half roll in the next manuever and the error was not caught in either maneuver by very seasoned experienced judges. It is easy to get caught up in the smoothness and geometry of a pattern, that you might lose sight of the technical elements of the maneuver (inside vs outside roll in a rolling circle or was there a defined hesitation in that point roll). Perhaps it might be a good idea if an individual (probably not flying in the contest) could observe just the technical elements and free the judges to concentrate on the detailed subjective scoring of the maneuver.
Old 09-19-2006, 12:16 PM
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fishgod
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

What if the pilot exceeds 10 points in downgrades instead of a mandatory zero manuever? One judge may observe different downgrades than another judge, and therefore yield two different scores with one being a zero and not the other.
Very easy, the judge that made it to a 0 by deductions discusses it with the 2nd judge. Either the 2nd judge agrees, or points out the other judges fault. Either way, you will not get out of balance judging ( one gives a 0 and one gives a 7).

I have seen odd scores many times when inputing scores for a contest. I have seen spreads where one judge gives a 10 and the other gives a 0. The contestant actually flew the wrong manuver, judge 1 scored it a 10 and the second judge caught the wrong manuver.

Having said that, I myself believe that confiring on 0's is a good thing and wish it was done in pattern. I look at it as a way to help new or inexperienced judges learn and progress.

In the end, it really doesn't matter to me either way. This is my hobby. I see no need to get stressed out over an imperfect system. Most times the winners of a class are in the right order at the end.
Old 09-19-2006, 01:31 PM
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j woodward
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

In refernce to the way "IMAC" uses zeros, there is a rule proposal to reverse the current policy and allow judges to give zeros without the other judges concurrence.

Jim W.
Old 09-19-2006, 01:44 PM
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

Thats a shame. If you give a zero you should be able to defend to the other judge why you did it. If not you take the score of the other judge.
Old 09-19-2006, 07:15 PM
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Divesplat
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

I think the point of the thread is each of us "be honest and tell the judges when we know we flew the wrong manuever"

I don't see anything above as to having a 3rd judge to indicate "hard zero" Although I have been IMAC contests where that was done. This eliminates the objectivity of the 2 judges, and if the "zero" judge is mistaken, unfair.

My buddy on advanced came out of the double immelman with a 1.5 turn roll, then the out side immelman wasn't outside, and needed an extra 1/2 roll to get to inverted for the snap. Strangely, all 3 were scored and as it turns out scored well (first flight of the moring straight into the sun so the judges had vision problems also)

I believe the notion of this thread is simply after landing, the pilot (my buddy) should tell the judges I zeroed the double immelman, and outside immelman!! Just simply being fair, and honest. Of course for this to be effective (like golf scores) everyone would have to be on the up and up.

Ed
Old 09-19-2006, 07:37 PM
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radray
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

Ed,

You have to click the D7 link in the first thread to read about the zero judge. I agree the pilot should immediately tell the judges if they knew they flew a maneuver wrong, it is the right thing to do, and besides, the other flyers watching probably did catch it.
Old 09-19-2006, 08:04 PM
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klhoard
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

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Why even have judges? You could just tell your caller the scores as you fly and turn in the sheet after the flight!!!
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:31 PM
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flywilly
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

I'm with Keith on that one. Also, the situations described aren't necessarily 'zeros' just major downgrades. Back in the "old" days before turnaround, judges could confer (briefly) between maneuvers. Actually, there was more flying time spent between maneuvers than performing them... anybody remember Dave Brown's mile-long split 's' between maneuvers?? Aresti style flying is more taxing on the judges (we only fly one flight at a time - they have to judege and remain focused for an entire round). I'll admit to 'correcting' errors in between maneuvers; rarely noticed by the judges as they're trying to provide the score for the previous maneuver. If I screw up badly enough that I have to make some kind of major correction between maneuvers or as part of a subsequent maneuver my flight score always reflects this. Not necessarily on the original maneuver that was screwed up.
Hey, it took Maradona more than 20 years to admit that his 'hand of God' goal was actually his own hand and that was in the World Cup. Nobody is going to go back and change the result.
If everybody flew perfectly and judged perfectly we wouldn't have anything to complain about...
When all my equipment works perfectly at a contest and I don't win... I guess I need to practice more!!
-Will B.
Old 09-19-2006, 08:33 PM
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BJM
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

I vote - what the judges think they see is what you get. If you know you should have a 0, tell them - they will be more observant for that kind of error - but you still get the score they wrote down earlier.

Billy
Old 09-19-2006, 10:01 PM
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4u2nv-RCU
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

I agree with the idea that I am in this to have fun and find that the competition comes last to me. I comment on my flying as I fly and my callers keep telling me to shut up and not give away that bungled a maneuver. I always say "cripes" when I flop a stall turn much to my callers chagrin. ( and I have had flopped stall turns scored) Some folk dont see it this way. Sure they are there to have fun but the competition is more important to them and thats cool. They are there for fun and flying but the thrill of victory is more important to them than it is to me and I can dig that. From another perspective...has an offensive lineman ever gone to the official and told him he was holding on a play? Have you ever seen Shaq call a foul on himself? A baseball player argue that a pitch was a strike instead of a ball? Until there is a way to remove the human element from judging there will be errors.
Old 09-19-2006, 10:41 PM
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KeithB
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

At the risk of sounding like a poor sport I’d like to suggest that our job as pilots is to fly a flight that appears as flawless and graceful as possible. In that endeavor we constantly make corrections. When making those corrections we attempt to do so in a way that is seamless and not perceptible to the judges. For example, if you’re slightly off heading you don’t just slam the rudder to straighten out but you gently blend in rudder so the judges don’t notice. If your wings are slightly out of level correcting them in a radius helps hide the correction, so the judges don’t notice! Is this dishonest? Should we tell the judges each time we feel we’re off heading? Should the pilot that can correct his heading in an eight-point roll so smoothly that the judges can’t tell be rewarded for accomplishing this feat, or is he being dishonest? Guys, hiding our mistakes is what we do!

But wait Keith! That’s not what we’re talking about! We’re talking about blatantly flying the wrong maneuver!

OK, let’s talk about admitting zeros. I believe this will just cause trouble because:

A) You’ll never get everyone to admit their mistakes; there will always be someone that’s willing to keep quite. Knowing this the other pilots put themselves on an uneven playing field by admitting zeros to the judges.
B) Pilots won’t always remember or possibly realize when they’ve zeroed maneuvers, this means that the more astute pilots that remember/notice their zeros are disadvantaged. (And yes, there are times when pilots roll the wrong way and don’t realize).
C) When on looking competitors see what they "deem" to be a zero in another pilot’s flight, if the flying pilot does not admit (or agree) then there will be bad blood because some in the class will think the pilot is cheating (right or wrong). It’s better that competitors be upset that a judge missed a call than think that the pilot is cheating.
D) Everything we do up there is intended to hide our mistakes, why differ with zeros?

When you’re involved in sports you quickly learn that every competition has good and bad calls. Assuming unbiased judges sometimes bad calls work for you and sometimes against you. This is something you just have to accept and hopefully in the end it will all even out.

Keith B
Old 09-20-2006, 12:07 AM
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

I agree Keith.

Can't you just see a player in a baseball game, after being given a home run on a ball that actually went outside the foul pole walking up to the umpire and saying "excuse me ump, I have to be honest. That was a foul ball not a home run."

Or in a football game a player running up to the referee and saying " Hey ref you missed me holding" or " hey ref, you didn't see me grab his facemask?"

I dont think so.

Pattern is a sport. I am a church going guy too and all about honesty, not that is has anything to do with pattern flying.. But a large component of sports is letting the players play and the judges judge. As was mentioned above, not everyone is going to be honest, so just do the best you can, let the judges do the best they can and let the chips fall. Good calls and bad calls are just part of sports.
Old 09-20-2006, 04:06 AM
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

Thanx MPX, didn't realize there was more to the story.

ed

Ps see some of you this weekend in N Dallas. By the way, how bout those Jaguars
Old 09-20-2006, 06:26 AM
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Pattern_is_Fun
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

Hey Mike,

I'm just checking back in here, and not meaning to single out your response, but I will give my opinion on your comments:

You state... Can't you just see a player in a baseball game, after being given a home run on a ball that actually went outside the foul pole walking up to the umpire and saying "excuse me ump, I have to be honest. That was a foul ball not a home run."

--- you miss the point, the 'call', fair or foul, is like saying, was that a snap or not.. and we don't question these decisions. However, if you flew an outside loop and the maneuver called for an inside loop, would you want to be scored on it? There are examples above of similar things. If your answer is' "yes, I would take the score the judge gave me", then why try to fly precision pattern?

You state: Pattern is a sport.
--- let's be more precise - it's a sport of precision, we all try to fly 10's, keep the "Z" distance, flow, stay in the box, ... and when we make a gross error, and it's not caught by the judges, do you want to take the score? If your answer is yes, you should re-evaluate what you are trying to do. Fool the judges? Take a trophy from someone who did it correct - and you did not. A hollow victory at best I think,

You state: I am a church going guy too and all about honesty, not that is has anything to do with pattern flying
--- so the next time you fly a the wrong maneuver, tell the judges. It actually has a lot to do with pattern, and life. Want to get away with a score you don't deserve, fine with me, but I would not respect you much for doing it. (not that you would care what I think, but I wonder what your friends think!)


You state: not everyone is going to be honest, so just do the best you can, let the judges do the best they can and let the chips fall. Good calls and bad calls are just part of sports.
--- I don't think you get it, we can make the sport better, make the judges better, and as an end result, make our flying better. If these things are not of interest to you, fine. They are not of interest to many. Are you saying, "not everyone is going to be honest" .. so I don't have to either?

Scott
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:57 AM
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tommy s
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

The only thing else I'm going to say on this subject is if I'm to accept a judges view
that I zero'd a maneuver he better be ready to hear my retort that I didn't if I'm
absolutely sure I'm right. If I'm not sure about the maneuver I'll accept his judgement
with no comment but if I'm sure he's wrong he's going to hear about it. If he can't take
criticism, as we fliers do, then maybe he shouldn't be judging, or maybe he'll pay better
attention next time. I don't expect the score to be changed, I just want him to know
that maybe it was he that made the mistake and maybe he should pay better attention.

tommy s
Old 09-20-2006, 10:15 AM
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klhoard
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

ORIGINAL: tommy s

The only thing else I'm going to say on this subject is if I'm to accept a judges view
that I zero'd a maneuver he better be ready to hear my retort that I didn't if I'm
absolutely sure I'm right. If I'm not sure about the maneuver I'll accept his judgement
with no comment but if I'm sure he's wrong he's going to hear about it. If he can't take
criticism, as we fliers do, then maybe he shouldn't be judging, or maybe he'll pay better
attention next time. I don't expect the score to be changed, I just want him to know
that maybe it was he that made the mistake and maybe he should pay better attention.

tommy s
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What District are you in? I'd give you a couple ZEROS just to watch you make an ***** out of yourself . . . .
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Grow up. . .
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Old 09-20-2006, 11:02 AM
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4u2nv-RCU
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

Pattern is fun???



As I said before ..until judging can remove the human element we will have an imperfect system... We should not be asked to police ourselves...when we go to a contest one of the things I think we are paying for is a chance to fly in front of a set of judges...the quality of those judges can go from one end of the spectrum to the other but we are not our own judges....your vision of our policing ourselves should be called PRACTICE.......
Old 09-20-2006, 11:33 AM
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tommy s
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Default RE: I just don't get it!

Keith,
By all your posts I've read here and in the past I assume you're practicing to be a comedian ???
Well it ain't working brother.

tommy s

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