I know nothing about pattern competitions but I know about money. Now don't laugh too hard here, maybe they should classify events not by airframe size, but my money. Like several classes based on budget. For example. The 500-700 dollar class followed by the 701 to 900 dollar class and so on. Maybe that would level the playing field a bit more for everyone in their given class. Just a thought

Heres something to think about based on what I've seen over the last 30 years i've been flying.

If you add up the amount the average "sports/hobby Sunday flyer" (or what ever you call them) spends over a year on hobby shop eye candy... A SE here... a extra there... a Kyosho this... a awful scale that plus at bit of this, a bit of that...a crash here, a crash there, here a crash, here a new model, every where a crash crash..... I'd bet they spend a great deal more than one decent F3A pilot. They, well the ones I hang with, Buy a new aeroplane every year, last years maodel being the backup and sell the redundent one...kinda airframe recycling. Thats all they buy! One aeroplane and loads of fuel. Onec you've invested in a desent set of digitals and a couple comp' engines...they'll see you being competitive for quite a few seasons, no worries!

My entire hanger now consists of two fully equiped 2x2s and a G-trick. I've sold everything else. And boy was it a sale aeroplane, after aeroplane collected over the years... event went through a period that I couldn't walk into a hobby store without walking out with an aeroplane and engine... just couldn't do it, until I started flying pattern and then discovered that´compared to these aeroplanes everything else is simply rubbish.

Now, years later I havn't been to a hobby store since gods knows when! They just don't stock anything worth having... I have the internet, a credit card and a contact with ZN line and Central Hobbies. This year like last, they will have one sale each. I spend less now than I've ever spent...go figure.

Good point bla.

I wish pattern would just stay like it is, but I'm sure some of the older fellows on this forum were saying the same thing when they were my age (16). I think pattern flying has reached a pinnicle right now.

It will never reach the pinnacle. Think how now, side area is the thing, a little before, wide fuselages was the thing....Wings are shorter too now. Schedules change, so the airplane changes.

The airplanes will continue to refine and change. They will probably become more expensive as materials change and manufacturing methods are improved. Have servos and linkages reached perfection? No, refinement will continue and cost will slowly increase here too. Titanium alloy gears, whatever can increase accuracy, no matter how small the returns because together, tiny refinements add up to something meaningful.

Gasoline? Maybe. The savings on fuel would be quite significant. Getting the motors perfected at acceptable weight will probably make them very expensive. Most current high end flyers are not going to accept current gasoline motor weights. Maybe it's just trendy, but lighter is and will be the goal for a while to come. Increasing the weight allowance? Why not put the extra weight into something other than motor. More wing and fuselage area? Some folks will run the gasser, others will design a more stable airframe around light weight glow motors. Until the power to weight ratio of gas is close to glow I see people using an additional pound allowance for somethng other than fuel cost savings.

Will cost be the demise of pattern? Why should it be? It never deterred F3A pilots before. It surely won't in the future. F3A has never attracted thousands of competitors. It has been viewed, perhaps appropriately so, as the elitist portion of R/C flying and the natural non-competitive nature of most R/C flying hobbiests keeps them out of competition. It is a small part of the hobby albeit disproportionately responsible for much of the advancement in technology.

(Think about it. R/C is not traditionally a strongly competative sport. Most long time hobbiests have enjoyed the solitude of the workshop, long hours between themselves and the airplane in the night, and often a noticable condecension to anyone's suggesting a"friendly" competition to add stress to the enjoyable past-time.)

As far as the argument for cheap, affordable pattern...I do not see a problem. There are the sportsman and intermediate classes, and no reason why a local club cannot create a local competition limiting competitors to certain equipment limits. The only argument I really understand is what I interpret from reading between the lines which is that many people seem to want is Formula 1 performance and technology at Ford family car prices.

Mark

Isn't that how NASCAR got started???

...and that's really cheap to compete in

As far as not R/C not being competitive just ask boaters. The problem arises when someone says "hey I'd like to try pattern" then he looks at the price tags.

Now I've been told that I could fly Sportsman and Intermediate with only a Ultra Sport 60 but after that I'd have to get a "real" pattern ship. Well I can't see myself explaining to my wife the $1000 USD I just spent on an airplane only includes the foam wings and a fuselage.

When you say there are Sportsman and Intermediate classes for those that can't afford the big ships. What happens when you win those classes. In Canada anyway, once you win a few times you are forced to step up to the next class.

This is where my concern lies. I feel that with time and practice I can get to that spot but I can't afford to move up a class. Since I'm not allowed to stay where I am and can't afford a better plane what do I do? Quit pattern flying?

If Formula 1 has to cut costs for teams to survive why can't modelers do the same thing?

why not just fly the pattern plane you won with in the lower classes in the higher classes?

You don't have to have a PL prod or ZN plane to compete in higher levels of pattern. Although they do fly real nice and are the best planes out there, I bet you could still do really well with available designs that you can build yourself, (Typhoon 2000, patriot,Aresti 3, etc)
Then put something like an os 160 with a cline regulator in it, oodles of reliable grunt, without a comparitively huge price tag.
Digi servos are getting cheaper, alright they are still very expensive, but probably worth it.
I reckon that you could put together a competitive plane for a little over 1000 US.

LAGCISCO

I agree, with you use the same model. I used to be under the impression that if you didn't have the top equipment then you would not get the scores.
I found out last year that this was not the case. Last year was my first competitive year in F3A, so I invested in a secod hand DR. Jekyll that had been flow in the World Champs in 99 in the USA by one of the Irish team members. This was of course well out dated by now,but its all I could afford at 19 but it flew increadible but unfortunately it crashed due to radio problems. This happend a couple of weeks before the first competition of the season. I decide to take out my brothers old Dr. Jekyll which had a lot of flights on it and it was built in the winter of 1994 and flow at the World Champs in 1995 in Japan it also flew a full 2 seasons at local Irish events before it was bought by my brother. I took this model out all basic gear in it with a ys 140 fz, to my disapointment it didn't fly aswell as it used too what do you expect it was 8 years old at this stage. I then bought a second hand Caprice and flew it at the first leg of the team trails and came last mainly due to little practice despite the flying capablilites of the model. Unfortunately this model crashed shortly afterwards with in total about 25 flights on it (STRUCTURAL FAILURE).

I was left mid season with no model and 2 black bags full of crashed models.

So I decided I had 2 options quit for the season or take out my brothers old Dr. Jekyll, so being the young ambitious F3A pilot, finishing out the season was the only option.

So I took out my old Dr. J and practiced and practiced until I knew the model inside and out I must have had over 130 schedule flights in the space of 8 weeks.

To cut a long story short, I entered the Irish Nationals, with an 8 year old model looking worse for ware with standard gear in it and a old ys 140. But the main think was I knew the model so well and practiced so much that I managed to come 4th and in the process beating

An Angel Shadows, Alliance, Focus's, caprice, Smaragd.

I have changed my view and now beleive that as long as you have a half decent pattern plane and plenty of practice & the right attitude thats all you need.

Maybe at international level you do but thats another days work..........

I am now looking forward to next season, hopefully with a bit more luck in models..........

wow thanks for that inspirational story multiplex, now i want to go out and try a hand at pattern.. ive yet to even fly a pattern airplane, or go out to a competition be it pattern imac or whatever else. im going to do some research and see what events are going on in my area and plan to participate.

Multiplex,
I agree with you, in some cases the man makes the machine not the other way round. Are you going to fly the same model this year

I think S.R. should also tell his story, featuring Alliances, receivers, and Nialls Fashion line.....(And a new rudder!)

I wouldn't mind seeing gas engines, but I have my doubts. In order for them to really compete with glow engines they're going to have to use the same types of materials technology used in dedicated pattern engines to reduce weight and such, which raises the price. So, you end up with a relatively expensive gas engine per displacement that significantly limits the potential market. Could happen, but I'm not holding my breath.

Pattern isn't cheap, but neither is any other SIG and pattern is less expensive than a lot of them. With all the inexpensive and good flying 60/90 sized pattern ARFs available it's hard for me to accept that cost or technology is keeping anyone from trying pattern. I interact with lots of sport flyers and for the most part they're simply not interested in practicing or competing. Rather than say that, some will say cost is the reason.

As always, pattern will continue advance incrementally, not radically. Look for maneuvers to become more entertaining as airframe design and engines continue to improve.

Kudos to Jim Woodward for identifying his professional association with Futaba along with his opinion. I wish some others on this list would do the same.

wow. Well put, and I agree wholeheartedly - there's a lot of common sense there.
Gasoline powered aircraft are the next logical step for the sport, driven by fuel costs. Also, I think the competition from lower priced cheaper to operate gasoline powered engines could only help to reduce the cost of thier overpriced nitro hungry glow counterparts. I cant imagine the gasoline engine manufaturers raising the costs of presently available engines just because pattern folks are buying them. If you look at the trend, the major gasoline brands are all offering lighter more powerful engines at the same prices as the previous version - unlike YS and OS that charge a hefty premium for the newer designs.
For the gentleman that reccomended it, I do have to put in here that a UCD would make a pretty cruddy pattern aircraft even with reduced throws, it seriously lacks precision..... maybe if you built up a different wing tho, the fuse might work..... lol...

What an interesting thread from nearly 10 years ago!

Not a single mention of electric, but worries of 6kg, gas powered biplanes

I wonder what the next 10 years will bring?

If you hadn't already posted this, I would have. Here in the USA, we see rules proposals every cycle to lift the weight limit, among others. Most people just do not realize that the people who beat you with a 5Kg rule will also beat you with a 6Kg rule. Wait for the technology to come to us, then we will use it. The current engine sizes are optimim for glow, however. Don't see gas taking over any time soon. My problem with electric is the eight minute limit. I am not in favor of increasing the size of the planes.

Brian Clemmons

and 10 yrs later no one can agree on how to keep the cost of competing reasonable

You haven't seen a well set-up gas plane

I was reading Brian's post and thought, you better hope Matt doesn't read this.
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Again beating the dead horse on the weight.

I would really like to see a video of a gas patttern ship performing the FAI schedulle, it will be a great refference to many for sure.

Well, the weight argument now is because of electrics, but honestly that's not really even a factor anymore. When you can buy an ARF pattern airplane for $650, a motor for $200, and bargain batteries and still make weight, it becomes a non-issue IMO.

The only real point of contention for glow/gas vs electric now is the point at which the airplane is weighed. The weight limit SHOULD be RTF, not empty weight.

The horse is alive and well. No video...but which schedule P or F???

forgive me.. I admit I have not read all of the posts....

but seems the above quote could be a root of many problems..... if it is in fact true

Gas advantage....requires 5 ozs of gas (about 3.5 ounces) to fly one Masters or F3A shedule, either P or F. Ask Dave Lockhart who flew mine if a well set-up gas Pattern model can do it all and be competitive. And we are really at its infancy in my opinion.