MHester

My Feedback: (1)

One last word of advice: SAND SAND SAND!!!!!!!!!!!!

The more you are able to leave in the floor, the less the plane will weigh.

Good luck and post pics of the progress!

-Mike

srekar

Sanded and glassed. But I can see some very minor inperfections because I cut out some bubbles that came out in the glassing process.

The question is, do I need to deal with those very minor imprefections on the surface before priming it up?? or the primer can take care of these on the final sanding of primer??

Srikar.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

if it's large and bare wood, I'd cut small pieces and re-glass. if they are very small, just hit them with resin and resand. Primer over bare wood isn't good in the long term. It's fine until you get some age and hot sunlight.

I've definitely experienced the bubbling before and it boils down to one thing: too much resin. if it's properly rolled out and thin and tight, it can't bubble. It' all practice and technique. You will learn SOOOOOOOO much the first one you ever do. I'm sure you've found this to be true.

I am toying with the idea of shooting some video when I glass and paint my own. I wonder if there's any interest in something like that? it sure seems to be a hot subject.

-Mike

srekar

Atleast I was looking for the videos before I started the plane. I always used to think on how the sheeting procees and how tough it can be and all. After wathing the video on sheeting cores from Bob Noll, I gained enough confidence that started this kit. I also was searching for the glassing video like crazy and found Don Ramsy's video and learned few thing after wathging that.

So Videos do healp a lot in gaining enough confidence before one actually start doing it. I definetly vote for your Idea.

Srikar

Robbidos

My Feedback: (20)

MY "Yes" vote is in.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Well here's my thought: one of the reasons people shy away from planes like this is "balsaphobia". I think we can agree he building of this plane is about as easy as it gets (and I'm currently revamping the building manual to make it even more detailed and specific). Lack of confidence is the #1 problem. Once you start glueing, it's all downhill and you wonder what you were so worried about. After you do the first one, you learn SOOOOOOO much that the subsequent ones get better and better and better.

Finishing is no different, except for one thing" no matter what you do, there is a sunstantial amount of work and special equipment involved. but how is this really any different from say, venturing into electrics, or making the jump into a real 2 meter plane in the first place? It's just different, and is probably one skill most would like to have, but also many like having that excuse (reason) not to do it. After all, if your wallet is deep and you don't WANT to spend a lot of time on it, there are plenty of planes to choose from. Oxai comes to mind. This is one of those cases where you're either a modeler or an ARF pilot. I am still amazed at how many people nowadays have never flown anything but ARFs. Now there's not a THING wrong with that, as long as you are ok with whatever you can get whenever you can get it, and aren't crazy enough to be the first guy to discover that it has some serious problems.

But if you have the desire to learn to do this, it's really not that hard at all, but you have to be willing to learn and make a few mistakes along the way. It's a long journey and there will possibly be a few bumps in the road along the way. That has to be ok. I do everything I can to roll out the bumps for you, but I can't think of everything and I'm not there.

The glassing and painting part of this is a great example. There's only so many pictures you can look at but until you see it with your own eyes and do it yourself, it's still a big mystery. Don's video is fantastic, I have a copy myself. It's certainly a great reference and we do a lot of things the same. But, I do a few things different and although I can tell you what they are, it's easier if you see it in motion. of course the logistics of actually doing it are a PITA, but I think it would be worth the trouble.

-Mike

onewasp

I'm with Robbidos!

--------but then I just put away the silkspan and dope-----
I have a ton of experience with balsa (I well remember the old "Balsa Flies Better" slogan) Still do my own designs ------
BUT, I have to admit that your '110' has me salivating more than a little bit!

srekar

After reading some articales on urethane paint and fume risks, I started worrying a bit to paint the model in my Appt. I am just wondering to know If anybody painted/painting their models inside the home with proper exhaust setup and all. I have been looking at the exhaust fans and related equipment to setup a very small paint booth inside the home if possible. I came across this exhaust fan after understanding that I must use explosion proof fans.

http://www.sprayshield.com/cgi-bin/h...&item=fan.html

As I said, I am new to paint, please provide your valuble experience related to the risks and solutions to paint the model. I am looking for some sample setups that gives me an idea to setup my paint booth.


Srikar.

BrianB

My Feedback: (2)

Srekar, you might consider Nelson Hobby paints and HVLP spray kit, I personally have not used the Nelson stuff but have read some possitive threads about it, a common comment is its a little dull compare to the automotive clears. It's non toxic qualities may be good for your situation. Check out the links and see if it fits your needs.

http://www.nelsonhobby.com/spray.html

http://www.nelsonhobby.com/paint.html

Silver Bullet

I also have health concerns with urethane coatigs.

Anyone here tried KlassKote? Looks to be about the same as Hobbypoxy or Superpoxy. Had good results with those back in the 80's and 90's. Then they were phased out because of EPA regulations, I believe, so I'm wondering is KlassKote is really the same.
Will it hold up to 30% nitro?

Actually, what about using butyrate (sp) dope. It is supposed to be light. Never used it on a pattern plane but it used to hold up to C/L stunt planes years ago but nitro percentage was minimal (5%?) way back then (don't ask).

Or a combination of epoxy primer and dope top coat?

Bob

srekar

Seems like they are also urethane based??

http://klasskote.com/paint_store.html

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

No the formula is not exactly the same...but close.

I do know that it's difficult to make direct comparisons and general statements. I only have one concern: weight. This is a LARGE plane and has a lot of surface area. If careful attention is not payed while doing the finish, one can easily add a lot of dead weight. Sandpaper is your friend....

The trick if there is one, is that you do NOT want to build up the finish with multiple coats. You want the paint to where you can't see through it...and run in the other direction.

I am fairly certain that the Klass koat will withstand 30% nitro, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. Nelson's paint works and can be very light if done correctly, but can also be difficult to work with.

Now one thing about the urethanes. Fumes and such are mainly based on past experiences with larger painting guns using high pressure equipment and lots of overspray. With a LVLP or airbrush like i have listed, the overspray and fumes are MUCH less. No worries about explosions with exhasut fans, there's simply not enough vapor concentration to flash. You can spray straight atomized thinner right at the fan motor and it won't do anything (although I DON'T suggest trying that LOL).

The 3 steps where you are going to be creating a lot of overspray are primer, base color and clear if you clear the whole plane. The colors run through the airbrush are next to nothing. And if you use the BCS for the base color, then all you have to worry about is the primer and clear. And the primer can be done in stages, you don't have to do it all at once.

But the respirator thing is real. You do not want to breathe this stuff, and when it is flashing (AFTER all of the overspray has been vented) that is when the fumes are the worst...and you can;t see them. Best advice is to leave for a couple of hours after spraying and keep the ventillation going. After that, you're probably ok. But even then spraying in a small apartment....hmm...just be careful and use your head.

Water based colors will not hold up to nitro on ther own, they still have to be clear coated. Just FYI.

In my humble opinion klass kote may be the best alternative to urethanes, but I don't have any experience with the newer stuff. So hopefully someone will jump in and enlighten us.

But since I have no fear I think I'll just keep using urethanes for myself They are the best for this particular application, no question about it.

Of course there is always dope and silkspan.......

-Mike

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

They have both urethane and epoxy based, thier urethane paint is new for them. And FWIW, it looks like relabeled House of Kolor paints. Good stuff, but do some price checking.

-Mike

srekar

I spoke to Nate, at Klass kote and he told me the paint is 100% nitro proof and also it is same weight as any other paint when it is dry. He also told me that the finish is as good as the urethanes and need not use a clear after base but use "Gloss Catalyst #405" to get glassy finsih.
Dave Platt did an exclusive video for the klasskote paint it seems. U&U Understanding & Using Epoxy Paints 'The Klass-Kote Video'

http://www.daveplattmodels.com/Videos/index.htm

Srikar

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

It certainly does seem like a good alternative!

if you go that route, I would appreciate you doing something for us. Consider it umm...like homework or something LOL

After primer is sanded and you are reay to start spraying base and colors, weight the fuselage. Preferrably without tape and masking and tolling parts attached.

After painting, weight it again in the same exact condition, so we can see exactly how much weight was added from the paint. That is critical need-to-know info. Don't assume tape weighs nothing for instance, you'd be suprised.

if that's too much trouble, then don't bother, but I would love to know as this gives us all more information to pull from at times like this.

-Mike

srekar

Mike,
I will do it if I go that route and I also think this is the best alternative for me for now. But I want to see if any body here gets me any new alternatives.

For now, I have the fuse + wings + stabs + mount + wing tubes (Glassed and sanded) as 2378 Grams. That leaves 2611 Grams for the rest (Finish/Engine/Harware/Servos etc) Do you think this is acceptable weight??



..Srikar

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

She's a little fluffy, but yeah that's doable easy. just don't get lazy at this point, trim every screw, sand everything, don't take anything for granted....you should be fine. Wouldn't be easy as an electric, but as a YS plane, not a problem.

-Mike

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

Have done SuperPoxy based painting on a Sequel myself using a VHLP. Seems to me a lot of work and extra weight. If the fuse is built-up type, mono-Kote might be a better alternative: light in weight, extra strength and reasonably good looking.

I defintely do not recommend the urethane paint. Breathing in the fume can be fatal.

srekar

Some more info on Klass Kote.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2452318/tm.htm

..Srikar

srekar

Mike,
Just for the reference, what is the good weight for the finish, including the primer?? I am just trying to calculate the weight and want to make sure that I am not going to use more primer/base on this.

..Srikar

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

Sounds good.

Hope that the extra work will pay off. Fiber classing the fuse could mean a lot of work. The fiber classing the wings of my sequel took lot of time indeed: endless process of sanding and painting. SuperEpoxy is very hard stuff and sanding is kind of hard. Do not know Klass Kote though.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

You're going to pick up most of your weight during the glassing if you do it right. On this plane I'm still looking for average. But as long as you sand off EVERY coat of primer all the way back down to the weave, only doing minor leveling as you go, you won't pick up more than 2-4 ounces during paint. if you do the glassing exactly like the method shown on my site, then you shouldn't pick up more than a few ounces there either. 6-8 ounces total is acceptable, much more is getting a little heavy. You should still be just fine, but the plane could be higher in the 10s than in the low 10s or 9s. FWIW, I've flown this plane everywhere from 9.75lbs - 10.75 lbs, and in my opinion it flies better overall being about 10.5 lbs. I think even at 11 lbs with a DZ you will have no issues at all. It's a BIG plane and already flies like it weighs 8 lbs. I won't debate the benefits of being lighter just because, but in all honesty I like this plane a lot better at about 10.5 dry.

But, the weight thing is a game that's played from the first piece of wood you put on a scale, and every screw, every single piece of equipment you put in the plane. Generally speaking the cheaper you are, the heavier the plane will end up. Same goes for geting complacent at any stage. "good enough" probably isn't. You're building a competition weapon, so take the extra care to make it as good as it can possibly be.

Sanding this monster can wear you out. So my advice is to just take your time. Sand it, take a break, sand it some more later...and then when you think you're done, go back and sand it some more. One thing about epoxy based stuff, it doesn't sand like urethanes. So be prepaed to put some effort into it.

I generally recommend monokoting the wings and stabs. It's just too easy and you can save some weight. But if you do decide to glass and paint them, realize it's going to weigh more. How much more depends on your technique, skill and determination.

The scale and the sanding blocks are the 2 most used things in my shop. Once you build a few planes, you truly understand why

-Mike

lodomjr

My Feedback: (6)

Dean dude!!! this thread needs some updates

Lawrence

handglider

My Feedback: (23)

Hi Lawrence and all...

I do feel like I have fallen off the face of the Earth. Somebody famous once said - "Life is is what happens when your busy making other plans" - Well, I am back with a vengeance

I've covered most of the building steps, if I missed anything you all know Mike has all the documentation on his site. If your need any further help or information just ask, look back on this thread or the v2 thread or just go to Mike's site. Or better yet figure it out yourself - hey - what a concept

I've got 2 VF3s ready for paint - So here I go into finishing these babies.

Mike is right about the sanding - be prepared to spend a considerable amount of time filling and sanding the wood airframe. I use a product called "Super Fill" from Aircraft Spruce- it's a two part epoxy filler that sands almost like balsa. Use this filler on the fin fillet, to flair in the cowling and to touch up any other dings or small cracks. Like Mikes says the more on the floor, the less in the air.

I learned from one of the top painters it's best to work with a point light source at an angle to the surface your working - it's hard to see surface details under fluorescent shop lights.

I use different sized flat sanding blocks, and large hard rubber flexible sanding blocks. To achieve a "plate flat" look - it's important to use only a block sander, I use a few different commercial block sanders - 3M makes a variety of different styles of sanders, all available from your local hardware/Home Depot store. I've attached a pic of what "plate flat" looks like, you can achieve this with not a lot of extra effort and a sanding block. The main point is don't touch your plane with out a block - if you think you can fold up a sheet of sandpaper and go at it with your fingers - your mistaken.

handglider

My Feedback: (23)

I try to avoid much sanding during the framing stage. I may use 80 or 100 grit paper to rough sand the tip of the fin, the lower fin block or to shape the fin fillet or front turtle deck strip planking. Once the airframe is complete and your ready to start the finishing process Start with 150 grit and the block sander roughly 3-4 inches wide and 6-7 in length. All your doing here is basic leveling, do not get carried away here with just go over the entire airframe with the flat block - I do the curved areas of the turtledeck with the flat block, just make multiple passes over the curved areas. You want to pa attention to all the butt seams in the wood construction, the tabs and notches, all the intersections. try your best to level and feather as best you can.

At this point I apply the filler, you can use whatever you like, Mike turned me onto a product call "Super Fill" 2-part epoxy based that sands like balsa. I use that to fill in the fin fillet and all other areas of the plane that need it - it's a 12 hour cure so hit the entire plane. Once the filler is cured hit the filled areas with the 150 on the block and then move onto a 220 grit again covering the entire airframe.