Friends!

What will happen if the weight limit is set to MINIMUM 4,5 kg or 10lbs and the rest of rules apply as is. Will the airframes be stuffed with cheep equipment ??????

Best wishes

Seems to me the answer is the same for flying and for weight

If your not making the finals at the nats? then you have to practice more and become a better pilot.[sm=48_48.gif]

If your plane is not making weight? Then become a better builder.[sm=cry_smile.gif]

If your ARF isn't making weight?? change to a different ARF[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]


No need to monkey with the weight rules..........



Gary[sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif][sm=drowning.gif]

DagThe Elder, With all due respect, please do all of us a favor that fly AMA a favor and keep YOUR worthless opinion to yourself! We have enough opinions here from prople that really don't know the whole story without you adding your TWO-CENTS. Regards___TNWalker

TN...that was just uncalled for, it's an open forum.

Do you know the whole story?

What all the anger about? It's just a model airplane forum - not going to matter in the big scheme of things in the world. Nothing wrong with non AMA flyers (or non flyers) adding to the discussion regardless of what you think is value of the post.

I've always liked the idea of hearing what people on the outside have to say, but keeping the vote limited to those directly involved. I think all opinions should be welcome, and those of us that are involved in the AMA can decide if we want to incorporate them.

Everette,

That was completely uncalled for. You have said a lot of callous things over the years, some of which has been directed towards me as well. I think you should apologize to Dag the Elder, and be a little more careful with your choice of words.

Ryan, yes I do know the whole story. What you don't know is I flew glow for the first 18years of my pattern career. After careful thought and consideration, I realized MY future was in electrics. I guess you can say I got tired of supporting the lifestyles of the rich & famous living in Las Vegas! Something is wrong when you have to own 3 engines to be competitive__One in the plane, one in the trunk and one enroute with UPS!
I owe NO one an apology! If you contribute nonsense to this forum, as important as this issue is and you get "POPPED" then so be it! Also note,
I don't owe my soul to anyone especially a sponsor! Regards___TNWalker/Everette

If that response was in reply to having YS in my signature, then you don't know the whole story.

Again.... I dont see why all the trouble, as far a I know nobody is forced to use the expensive stuff, anyone can fly with a cheap set up an still be competitive, in every level!!!

for example, an Integral is a great airplane and for a full composite arf is cheap!!! and it placed 5 at the WC side by side with all the expensive-oxai-japanese stuff, is that a disadvantage... NO

in the lower classes (anywhere in the world) a good sport airplane can be very competitive. for example CAMODEL Epsilon .90 (it cant get cheaper than that) and its an exelent flying plane

think about this. anybody doing a bad fligth lets say in any entry class, flying a modest small airplane, do you really think the same pilot using a state of the art model could do better.... NO

so my point is, I donk see why any weight, sound, span limit can cause it more expensive...

at the end no matter what plane it is... fingers have to fly it!!!

Ryan, You are absolutely correct! I really don't know the whole story about all the "self promotion" and lengths you have gone to to arrive in the situation you find yourself in today! How pathetic! These are the very things I have always strived to stay above. How does it feel? TNWalker

Wow, TNWalker, talk about uncalled for. I've never even met Ryan before, but with the interactions I have had with him, he's never done anything to deserve that kind of flaming... So permit me to redirect some at you... You couldn't keep a YS engine running? Do you consider yourself a modeler? Do you even understand mechanincs at all? I only own 3 YS engines, 2 are in an airplane and the 3rd is waiting for a home. The longest any one of them has been out of the airframes they are currently in was due to repairs that needed to be made to parts other than the engine... So you made the choice to go to electrics full well knowing the rules regarding them, and then want to complain because you have trouble making weight? Sounds like you should be angry with yourself for not being able to learn YS engines. And if this topic is then why has your only contribution to the thread been flames at other posters?

I apologize to all the other electric flyers who are actually making coherent arguments, this is only directed at TNWalker...

No self promotion here. I just put that in my signature because RCU wants you to. I've got nothing else to say here. You sure know a lot about me to have never met me before.

Everette,

Why is it necessary to be like that? Also, to be honest, I'm not 100% sure why you are responding. How many contests do you attend a year?

You seem to have an opinion about everything, and everything is negative.

Is there a particular reason you can't even put your name in your signature?

Go ahead, take your shots. Yes, I fly YS, yes, I like YS, yes I fly Futaba, and yes I like Futaba. HOWEVER, You will NEVER find a thread in which I bashed JR or electric. They both work very well. In fact I lost to someone flying both at the NATS this year.

Arch

Please, let's stop all this trash and stay on topic. This discussion is too important for it to degenerate into trash talking.

Let me ask what may be a stupid question. If we keep the 2M size restriction, what advantage would a heavier airplane have? It will have a higher wing loading...is that less important than the extra power that might be available from more/larger batteries?
Would it just make biplanes mandatory to be competitive?

Scott

Have they posted the equipment list anywhere for the 2009 Nats? I can only find the one from 2008. I'd like to see some of the planes, equipment, and weights.

One thing I have been thinking about over the past 24 hours is buying a used airframe. The current weight limit is obviously a factor in people's airframe decision, power system design, and building style. If I were to buy a second-hand airframe, I would have to take this into consideration as anything changed from the original design and setup could easily lead to an airplane being overweight. What I have learned (and please let me know if I'm wrong) is that people buy an airframe and weigh it, and make decisions about the build process based on how much weight is remaining to make cutoff and what components need to go in it. Someone may build a 'stronger' airframe knowing full well that they are going to use the most expensive, lightest batteries on the market with the smallest capacity possible for their class (which could be a shorter flight depending on when it was).

When buying a second hand airframe, it sounds pretty crucial to know what the plane was designed to fly with, and I would say it's mandatory to discuss this with the builder. I don't think a second hand plane that comes in over weight is a fault of the current regulations, and thus I don't think this scenario would mandate a change.


Being in the entry level class I understand that coming up with a new, high level plane can be expensive, and may not be the best choice for me or anyone else at this stage, so a second hand airframe makes a lot of sense. As such, it makes sense to me to be lenient on the lower classes as access to all the lightest equipment is challenging. Over time, I expect to gather some pretty good equipment and hopefully some to transfer into a high level plane when I get there. So, this was making me think about a progressive weight 'relaxation', if you will. Something like: sportsman can fly anything, any weight. Intermediate has a .5kg buffer, Advanced gets a .25kg buffer, and Masters have to remain at or below 5kg - these numbers are just for example and off the top of my head.

Arch, to honor Tony's request, I'll only add that it's not necessary for me to add my real name with every entry because everyone has known it for over a year. Also, when the average pattern flyer asks why the planes, motors/engines and electronics cost so much, they need to realize all the additonal costs involved in the direct subsidy of sponsored flyers are paid by each and every one of us! Regards Again,TNWalker/Everette

Joe,

What makes it fair to have a stepped weight regulation? You're overlooking the fact that people can and will use the same airplane as they progress through the classes. My first contest in September of 2005 I flew in Sportsman with my first Partner. I competed with that airplane into Masters, which I flew my first contest in that class two years later to the day. I would have flown it longer than I did, but I lost the airplane in March of 2008.

I would have been screwed moving up as I couldn't afford to buy another airplane. I really couldn't afford to buy the two matching Partners that I have now from Quique, but I somehow managed to scrape it all together. People have accused me of having better "sloppy seconds" than they have on the first time around, and be that as it may, you still need to exercise caution when buying a second-hand airplane. Often times in the world of fullscale, a pre-purchase inspection is the deal breaker for someone foaming at the mouth ready to write a check. Exercise a little common sense, and you'll yeild a good purchase.

Arch, Since my last entry, I took the liberty and contacted the Audit Section of the Nashville IRS and found out the "tax status" of the relationship
between the sponsor and the individual enjoying the sponsorship. I was told any direct subsidy is a "taxable event" that should be reported by the company and the individual as "taxable unearned income" on a W-2 form. I thought you might find this interesting. Regards___TNWalker/Everette

I still have never seen a logical explanation as to why the difference in weighing planes with or without fuel (batteries) exist at all.  From the outside it appears to be just a way to protect a legacy.  Take-off weight, is take-off weight, a very simple concept.

I think the AMA idea was to make an easier transition from masters to FAI, and that is why it's so important to have the same dimension/weight rules.

Alejandro Pereira
AMA 769178(since 2004 I think, just in case)

I will repeat what I have been saying for a while. Right now the AMA rules and the F3A rules are not "equal". An F3A airplane has a 50 gram fudge factor. AMA does not. An F3A flight is about 6 minutes or so. An AMA Masters flight is 7:30. So right now it is more difficult to do an AMA Masters legal electric model then it is for an F3A.

There is no need to keep the limits the same between F3A and AMA. Anyone desiring to fly F3A will do what they need to do to enter that event.

Can't we do this somehow democratically? Why not setup a poll. If there is a large majority in favor of change we could setup a petition, but if the majority is happy with the status quo then so be it. Next year at the Nats make everyone signing in fill out a 90 second poll on the top 3 "hot issues" that way the issue won't be dominated by the few of us active on RCU

Anyways, just a thought . . .


JP

Both the FAI sporting code and the AMA regulations use the following wording...

Propulsion source limitations:
Any suitable propulsion source may be used except those requiring solid expendable propellants, gaseous fuels (at room temperature and atmospheric pressure), or liquefied gaseous fuels. Electrically-powered model aircraft are limited to a maximum of 42.56 volts for the propulsion circuit, measured prior to flight while the competitor is in the ready box.

One way to enforce the 42.56 max volts is to have a weight rule that includes weighting an e-powered aircraft with motor batteries intended for flight. During the weight-in process an official has the opportunity to inspect and tag the batteries intended for flight. If necessary immediately following an official flight tag batteries can be easily verified.

Curious, is max volts monitored/checked at the US NATS AMA or FAI classes?