Tony
I still don`t get your point!
Not trying to aurgue with you but your statement " rule change to help a lower class flier participate within the rules at a reasonable expense"
is what I directed the reply at.
I am quite aware at the popularity of ARF`s as I have 3 on the market currently all at differing price points.The Shinden was an airplane I deliberatly designed for AMA classes with a low price point $1000.00 all composite painted in the molds.

What I`m getting at is what I believe Dave is trying to say as well.
It is not an unreasonable expense to get an airplane under weight. Considering what others pay for non competiton airplanes,
And if you are going to compete, it`s only a fraction of the totality of the other expenses required.
My point is,This is a non issue and a rule change would be for nothing.
competition is not for every one just those who want to follow the rules
Even when we waived any weight rule at local contest in 20 years we only had one guy take advantage of it.

No competion is driven from the bottom up ,it`s inspired from the top down,
I take exception to the 5K weight limit as being arbitrary It`s a "rule" well known ,,if you want to compete then you follow the rules.
in fact I think it was quite Prophetic!
I think this one rule is the most important rule keeping the prices to a reasonable level.
It has been proven time and time again that it can easily be done by any one who trys.
The rules are what makes any event, and levels the playing field ,,if every one follows them.
If it was up to me I would raise the weight limit and the size limits Because I think a bigger pattern airplane would fly so much better.


There is no proof or even perception, Pattern is too costly. compaired to what I pointed out in my prior post. There are so many options out there you could argue it is the most diverse of all of them with multiple avenues to be competitive.


BTW I was quite puzzeled to see you with a Dremel tool grinding on your airplane for some time to take a few ounces out at the practice feild before the Nat`s this year.Being a multi time USA team Member ,,it just struck me as Odd! you waited till then to get your airplane legal.
I think this is a personal Beef with no merrit and you have shown no proof your rule change will make one bit of difference in the big picture of competition.
your asking us to show proof ,, But your making the proposal the proof is for you to provide! Sorry,

I Am not against a rule change that makes sense , and if you could show proof of what you say is in fact a problem I would be for it .I`m against a rule change that has no effect on the outcome of participation or the outcome of equity
I think the only thing arbitrary is a 5.5k take off rule in your proposal.

Sorry I just dissagree with you on this one.

Bryan

Bryan,

I have presented a lot of "proof" to my proposal. You have either chosen to ignore it or minimalize it in your mind. And I know a lot of Shinden owners who really would have liked a higher weight limit. Every one I have seen at the local meets the owner told me it was over the weight limit.

Do I think my proposal would make life easier for myself? Yes I do. But if I had a problem making weight in 2009 with a plane that was legal in the F3A Finals in 2008 then I figure it's a problem for others.

I know of two pilots who would have gone to the Nats in 2009 but their CARF model was over weight. And I know of one pilot here in CA who is trying very hard to get his brand new Valiant to get below the weight so he can go to the Nats next year. So far he has been unable. I'm sure they would be happy to know that it is "easy" to make weight.

So even though I don't think folks are willing to make a change, and I agree it is possible to make weight today I'd like to bolster Tony's case with a real world example:

I have recently (as in just today) acquired 2 used e-machines, a Beryll and JAS's Argentinian Worlds Integral. That brings my hanger to a total of 3 professionally built, "state of the art" 2M machines. All 3 machines are over 11 lbs if I use Rhino packs, and 2 of the machines are over even with the preferred TP Pro Lite V2 5300's. I will have to use TP 4350's to make weight with 2 of the machines or otherwise make expensive alterations of equal or greater cost.


There must be some way to take this into consideration. Maybe provide an ideal battery weight (say the weight of TP Pro Lite V2 4350's), subtract that from 11lbs, and then make the empty weight for e-machines that number. That way batteries that don't weigh the ideal amount (i.e. are cheaper) are not excluded.


Just another 2 cents


JP

I'm against raising the weight limit and I'm also against establishing new weight limits below 5 kg because I believe those weights will soon become irrelevant due to technological advances. I am in favor of eliminating the weight limit altogether. Who cares if someone wants to fly a 15-20 lbs bi-plane with a DA-50. I would never complete with a bi-plane because I don't want to be bothered by the extra assembly time and other complexities. I realize some serious competitors would give it a try. Once the weight limit is removed then things will stabilize in a few years. This would eliminate the need to weigh planes at the NATS. I disagree that it doesn't cost more money to build and outfit a lighter plane. Doesn't carbon fiber gear and pipes and control rods cost more than their metal equivalents, sure they do. A lot of expense is put into building composite planes that can't be built at home. Eliminating the weight limit would make gas an option, wood ARF kits more prevalent, and who knows what else.

IMO the choices are to eliminate the weight limit or keep the rule as is. Either way I'll still fly pattern.

I don't feel this way because it will increase participation as much as I feel it will increase everyone's options.

I don't think pattern is real expensive but it ain't cheep either.

TP Pro Lite V2 4350's will not last very long flying Masters. I know as I had to buy two to fly at the Nats. I pull 3,900 maH out of them when it's calm and 4,200 when it's windy. They won't be long for the world with that abuse.

I was trying to get at this earlier. When you buy 'professionally built', second-hand e-machines, you are buying the design of the builder. If they had their mind set on using the lightest batteries for competition, then that's what you are stuck with for your battery choice. I think it's extremely important to talk to the people we buy our used airframes from and determine if this is the case. I think the lesson to be learned is to see the plane on a scale before making the decision to buy.

I think it's safe to assume that the guy who bought the brand new, $3300 Beryll probably wasn't thinking of using the cheapest, heaviest batteries on the market to power the plane.

One solution is to have a set of 'competition batteries' to make weight for competing flights, and use the Zippy batteries for practice.

So now you have to buy 3 sets of competition batteries and 3 sets of practice batteries. How does that save someone money?

I'm buying 4 sets of batteries for my plane. If my plane needed an expensive, light set of batteries to make weight, then I could buy 3 sets of heavy, cheap batteries and one set of expensive light batteries. Given the situation, this seems like a cost effective approach.

You need at least 2 sets of batteries to compete with. Sometimes you have less than an hour between flights and what happens if you pack goes bad.

I just feel like this stuff should be considered before you buy an airplane. If you're serious enough to compete at Nats, you should have an understanding of your equipment. If you're not building it, at least understand it. It is hard to empathize when a person is flying a $3500 airframe but only wants to use the cheapest batteries in the world to fly their plane.

I don't mean to be rude, but this conversation has been going on for a couple of days, and the owner of these new planes has been involved in the conversation before he bought the planes, and now isn't happy with the fact that he has to buy batteries other than the cheapest ones in the world to fly his thousands of dollars worth of airplanes.

Are we really supposed to think about changing a country-wide rule because of this?

I can't believe that cost is keeping this person out of competing when he could have settled for 2 airframes and a set of lighter batteries.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm thrilled for 2Sunny to have these airplanes and can not wait to meet him, see his planes, and watch him progress in the hobby. I mean no personal attacks or flames, but am just trying to sort out what's relevant in adopting a new law for all of AMA pattern flying.

Tony,
We all know about the over weight Shindens and Pass-Ports,
But I did the work and provided a list with the components for the Shinden that would make it under weight , this cost was no more than buying the wrong equipment ,
but the information was priceless. Experiance is the only way you can make that happen unfortunaltly you can`t purchase that ,you have to earn it like we did.
but most guys did nothing to fix the problem they just bought the next newest kit. ,,money is not the issue as I said before.

However, the Shinden was not made for Electric ,like I said it was for a low end price point.Four years ago when it was designed. Electric set ups were not Cheap for most in the AMA classes, nor were they light, However, these are not sport planes and the equipment selection still takes effort to get it right ,even though you can buy the latest and greatest don`t mean you can set it up properly.

Should we also provide an allowance or,out law IC in Pattern because the new guys are at a dissadvantage because they don`t know how to get a YS to run properly
or, outlaw any self designed airplane because of a percieved advantage in building skills? no, you go to the Pro`s and get the correct Help or information on how to get the job done.
Competition takes effort, not a relaxing of the rules for beginners or the inexperianced.
If this is a real problem they can use a Great planes "Go JO" and compete with that till they have the experiance and skill to move to the big rigs.
I guess they will still want to Buy the Nice stuff, Agian money ,no issue.
When compaired to the other difficulties to compete in pattern, this rule is small , experiance is what teaches you to make the weight limit.
Maybe we can reduce the downgrades in the lower classes so they won`t feel bad when they can`t earn a ten on a horizonal roll as well.

This remindes me of the old No retractable gear rule in Novice (Oh Wait that word is not Nice) that was also a stupid rule it made no difference but made people feel good about themselves,But ,Now look ,the pro`s don`t even use them.
This is the nature of the progression in our sport the target is always moving,and improving, Rules do this.

Any airplane can be made to be over weight like your pro built Pass-Port by buying stuff not intended for high level competition or not properly weighing the equipment.
I usually unload all my overweight Shindens to the masters guys too..LOL Just kidding!!
I`m sure the FAI guy you purchased it from was quite aware it was overweight but forgot to tell you or he used the Nats Scale to Weigh it LOL,
Tony,electric airplanes don`t gain weight!
So If any body choses to fly electric like you did, it is their resposibility to make sure your choice of parts ,Power,Batteries ,ECT. will do the job and be legal.
or buy a Battery opperated Dremel just in case LOL

the way I see it
If you move the weight limit up , there still will be those who will be over the limit. just like the speed limit.
This weight rule has been in place for long enough for any one to be aware of the standard, manf,designers and competitors ,and it is quite easy to acheive. even with a Shinden and Pass-port
If a New Pilot would ask for a little direction from a sponsored pro like you, me or Dave ,He could get all the info he would need to buy the proper parts and equipment to make a legal Aircraft,this is why we are sponsored. And the dollar differenceto do it is neglagible
in fact I would aurgue with the availability of information through sites like this and other places on the web ,no one has an excuse anymore not knowing the rules or being able to access the proper stuff to do so.

Good Information is the cheapest to get but the most valuable when you recieve it.
Maybe we can pass a rule that Says "to fly Pattern you must ask the pro`s how to make Weight"[sm=surprised.gif]

Sorry I don`t see it like you do , I do what I can to promote Pattern and give tirelessly to the effort and I know you have done through the years as well
But,I figure both of us are experianced enough to agree to dissagree on this one.


Nice debate maybe something will come out of it but I doubt it
Bryan

Joe,

You posted this earlier,

Well first off, thanks to everyone who responded to the thread. I was asked for my opinion in an email and felt that I needed some more information before I really said anything. Personally I have never flown a 2M, weighed an airplane or even held 8 or 10S worth of batteries in my hand. I have no idea how easy or hard it is for electric or glow guys to fit everything in a 2M plane and make weight (or glow guys for that matter).

I suggest that maybe when you do get some more experience with the event that you will better understand the problem. I bought my PassPort that I flew in Masters at this years Nats from Chip Hyde. He flew it in the 2008 F3A Finals. Would I not expect that model to make weight at the 2009 Nats? I did but I was hit with the problem a few days before the Nats started. I suspect that many others have the same problem. If they indeed weigh all the models entered at the 2010 Nats I suspect that many more having the problem will be seen. Or maybe they won't go to the Nats?

Brian,

Electric model don't gain weight? Really? What about damage? These models are so fragile now to make weight that just a slight off-field landing will tear them up. How often do repairs not add weight?

You can continue to take jabs at me for what I had to do at the practice field before the Nats. Have all the fun you want. You have no idea what it took for me to even be there. So I hope you are enjoying yourself. And please do not insult the previous owner of my PassPort. Despite all of my past differences with him he has turned in to a very good friend. If it wasn't for him I would not have been there.

But if you can't see the problem, then there is nothing more I can tell you.

Maybe my proposal will not pass. If so, I think it will be a mistake. But at least I will know I tried to make a change to an event I love that seems intent on watching itself die a slow death.

I'm working on it. I just bought an airplane designed for electric power and am working on a 10S setup. I have been doing research on what equipment to get and understand what my plane with my selected components will weigh. It's really not very difficult to do. It's actually kind of fun taking everything into consideration and making decisions on what is more important (cheap batteries, light weight, redundant electronic power system).

I want to remind you that I'm in favor of of some lenience toward the lower classes, but prefer to sight examples other than negligence to support my case.

As I have previously stated, I agree with those that think the weight issue on electric planes needs to be addressed.  However I don't believe that this is the key to increasing participation in pattern flying.  Since weight rules are not enforced at local contests, and the NATS are really not on the radar for beginning Pattern Flyers, the weight rules are not stopping people.  I think the biggest deterrent to Pattern flying is that from the outside looking at the sport it seems like too big a commitment for most people.

I felt this way when I was learning to fly.  We have a reasonable sized IMAC group here in San Diego.  I noticed that the best pilots at the field seemed to be this group of IMAC pilots.  I wanted to improve my skills, so I talked to them about it, and when there was an IMAC contest close by I went to watch.  I was convinced that learning to fly with precision was the best way to improve my skills.  However, I had recently retired from driving race cars, and traveling on weekends to events was a bigger commitment than I was willing to make.  In racing the feeder series are local one day event series,  I thought that this format could be adapted into a precision flying series.  I discussed this idea with the IMAC group, and they all said things like I am reading here.  Most people don't have the discipline, they won't make the effort, they are not interested.  After some discussion we decided to give it a try anyway, and with the leadership of the IMAC pilots we started the EMAC series here in San Diego.  It has been a great success, and will be starting it's fourth year in 2010.  The contests are at our local field, one day events that start at 10:00 am and are usually done by 4:00pm.  They are easy to attend, and cost nothing. The series has a regular group of more than 30 pilots, resulting in about 20 pilots in each event.  The rules for planes are easy, fly what you have (they are all electric because the field is electric only).  Although we fly the IMAC sequences (due to the originators IMAC background), Pattern planes have become the choice of many (my guess is 50%) pilots, because at sizes that are convenient for electric, they fly the best.  Yes, many of the pilots have begun to fly IMAC, and have bought big planes for that.  It has proved successful as a feeder series.  However, as a great number of pilots have pattern planes, interest has developed in having a real pattern contest in San Diego.  We have discussed this with the EMAC group, and asked how many would want to enter if a pattern contest was to be held locally.  None has been held here in the 4 years I have been flying.  There is a commitment from 17 pilots who said they will enter.  Just from the potential, there are now at least 10 guys who are at the field practicing the AMA sequences.  Some of these are planning on attending district events this season.  We are talking to a nearby field (our regular field does not allow glow), and they are open to letting us have the field for a weekend.  San Diego's one serious pattern participant has agreed to CD the event.  I attended two contests in my district last year, and had a great time.  Hopefully we will end up with an official AMA contest in San Diego for the first time in many years this summer.  If we get support from the regular district pilots, I believe we will have well in excess of 30 pilots. 

My point is that it is not the expense, people will sell their children once they are hooked.  It is not lack of discipline, or lazyness that keep Pattern from growing.  It is exposure to other pilots having fun flying pattern that keeps the sport from growing.  The thing that overcomes this is effort and leadership in the local flying community.  The feeder series seems to work well.
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I was thinking about a 'pattern tour' where a bunch of us go and have contests at random sites to promote our sport. Maybe it could be tied to the AMA in helping new clubs get chartered or something. I know that's another thread, but I agree that the level of participation and this weight issue are separate ideas.

Hey Tony ,I`m not taking jabs at you Man,
I have looked up to you for many years and have concidered you a Hero among the pattern fliers!
Your talking to a Guy who Consumed anything you wrote about pattern years ago, you were important to me deciding to designing my own airplanes
after seeing your Challenge designs,
And your writtings have molded many of my decisions over the years ,along with your super smooth flying ability.
I still think your accomplishments in the sport have been great,
and if you Flew FAI you would probably still beat me!

Nor have I took a Jab at Chip, I do that in public! LOL, he usually jabs me first though he`s good at that ,,,calling me the "White Ethiopian" or "Slim Shady"
Chip is also a friend of Mine ,,and I didn`t even know he was the seller till you mentioned it.
I was just trying to be Cute! and keep this from being so Hard nosed.
Just friendly Debate! here nothing personal.

I just see your aurgument comming from your problems at the Nats from lack of preparation
I`m sure you had a last minute effort and this is why you were scrambling ,However does that call for a rule change?
Tony, I know no one knows the rules better than you do.
It takes Sacrifice for all of use to make it to the Nat`s, the pains in getting legal are just some of the effort.
I have a handicaped wife, who would love for me not to put the effort in the hobby that I do But, I still play,and try to play by the rules.
it`s what Makes Pattern ,Pattern the other side is IMAC where anything goes just about the rules are loose and illusive ,,I hate that.

I often decide to completely glass and paint my airplanes it`s a chance I take when I start the project
I`m usually very close to the weigh myself because most of them are proto`s for a new design However ,, I know what the rules are when I start and I`ve had to do Many mods ,buy different packs, Mounts ,ect to get the extra weight cushin for repairs or the Nat`s scale ,which usually is 1.5 onces over,But , I have not tried to change the rule just abide by them.
I have had to live with poor decisions myself sometimes so ,,no personal Jabs I just remember you discusing this with the dremel in your hand. LOL

Look everyone knows I`m a very Poor writer if I offended anyone in the post I`m sorry I`m just trying to keep reality in play.
Pattern competition is not for the dabblers.

Tony ,Please don`t think I don`t respect you of coarse I do , and so do many others Thats Why I`m aurguing the conterpoint along with Dave and others because you do have a large influince.
This time I just happen to believe your wrong ,Sorry
Bryan

I think were seeing why pattern isn't growing by watching this thread.

Hi Bill,
what are your thoughts on the matter?
do you really think rule debates have kept pattern from growing?
do you think increasing the weight limit will grow pattern?
do you think anyone else cares but us? lol
Just curious,
Bryan

Bryan,

I have been discussing the need for a weight rule change since electric first came out. Maybe not in public, but with the local pattern fliers and others. I discussed this with a local pattern flier who flew my electric Partner in Masters in 2004. At that time he was supposed to submit a proposal but never did. So it has nothing to do with my "lack of preparation".

It is simply not equitable that electric weigh with the batteries and glow weighs empty. Never has been and never will be. But since you are a glow guy I can see why you don't want a change. Right?

I do know the rules. And I do know their effect on the event. The current rules have not been good for pattern. They became even more of a problem when electric became a viable alternative. I have the "advantage" of having been away from the event from 1999 to 2004. I then was away from 2005 until this year. Sometimes you see things better from a distance. Each time I have been away from pattern and returned the event has dwindled. I can see if you have been knee deep in the event you can get blinded by what may be better for it. I have no expectations that if we adopt my proposal that people will come out of the woodworks and start flying pattern. But it may help start an upward trend. Or help to slow down the decline.

Even though planes are not weighed at a local event, the rule still has an effect on what is being flown. It comes from what is being recommended by the so-called "Pros", to what people talk about using here in this forum. Manufacturers have lived and died from what is being posted in forums.

I am not talking about changing the "top". Just the developmental and lower destination classes. Think about this long and hard and try to really see what the benefits of this could be. It won't make one bit of difference about what is being flown at the World's. But it may be the start of helping to stem the tide and make pattern just a bit more attractive.

Well, Barkley still loves me! Here he is with his Pattern Animal of the Year award.

Hey Brian,

I would just like to also let you know what was happening that day at the practice field. Not only was I working on my model to make weight, but I was also working on an Intermediate flier's airplane. He found that his Abbra with an AXI motor and a 5000 20C pack was over by 45 grams. No 50 gram leeway in AMA so I spent about an hour grinding on his model. He probably would not have been there if he would have had to buy an $800 motor to make weight. And another Masters flier was there working on his $4000 airframe as he found it was also overweight.

But then, we were all suffering from "lack of preparation"!

BTW, how can the AMA scale be reading high? Don't they have calibrated weights to check it? Just curious.

Tony, I too will support your efforts, anyway that I can, until the bitter end! I still owe you, after all these years, for the help and assistance you gave me as a Sportsman flyer at the Rough River, KY. Contest. Thanks gain ___Everette Carpenter

Tony,

The Scales have been reading High for years around 50 grams high
I`m not sure where the calibration weight come from, every year, Ron Van Putte has his own set, he usually brings
Todd Blose has a Set he brings every year just to make sure. I`m not sure if the AMA has a set or not.
But, a few years back I saw a couple guys in advanced, worry about being overweight after inspection , they were just over.
Knowing the scales were off for a Number of years I recomended they go to the farm House and check again after they found a calibration weight.
Not sure where they got them that year But ,had I not stepped in those guys may not have been able to recieve trophies that year they would not have known any better.

Just something to keep in mind, it`s also why FAI has the 1% rule you can travel around the world to be disqualified by a uncalibrated scale.
I know a lot of the AMA guys don`t like to Mirror FAI But this would be a compromise I could agree with.

I know you have been very helpfull to your crew as I stive to do as well and I can understand where you are trying to go with this But ,
it seems your friend did not need to buy a new motor if you could get him under with an hours worth of dremel work
that s what I call Experiance over dollars.

Good luck with your proposal Tony
I`ll think on it some more at your request
No hard feelings I hope
Bryan

Tony,

To play the devil's advocate, did you, or any of the people you were with having weight problems weigh your airplanes before going to the Nats? I'm certainly not being confrontational, but that's the only way for me to know that something is what it is.

Trust me, I know it sucks how much things cost. I'm a 23 year old newlywed college student. I don't have a very steady job, as the construction industry is in the pits at the moment. I cringe when I make a big purchase, as one of my Partners probably costs more than my Explorer that I drive every day does. Hell, my TV almost does, so pattern is a large portion of what my free money gets spent on. I know how hard it is to fork over money for this stuff, but it's all in what you get out of it.