SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
04-30-2010 | 08:35 PM
#801
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RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: cmoulder
Interesting prop stuff
First the bad news: The Xoar 18x10 was mediocre. Not horrible but not nearly as good as the APC 18.1x10. Maybe better with some re-working, however I'm looking for right-out-the-box good.
Up until today, the top contender has been the APC 18.1x10.
That might've changed today after running the APC 15.5x12W. I had little confidence when ordering it - and even less when bolting it on - that it would be suitable for the SAP-180 and a pattern model. When the model took off, it appeared to lack speed and zip, seemingly confirming the low expectations. But after flying through several elements of the Intermediate sequence, I began to realize just how incredibly right it was!
Vertical was unlimited, with authority, and did not lose momentum even with multiple rolling maneuvers. The vertical speed was not as fast as with the 18.1x10, but it had a more ''torque-y'' feel to it, like a good 2C glow engine on a pipe, and the speed was a lot steadier through all maneuvers at 45 deg and SNL. It actually helped me fly the sequence much better than I've flown it before.
On top of all that, it was MUCH QUIETER than the 18.1x10.
I hope one of you longtime pattern guys could give this prop a try. I realize the diameter sounds as if it is not adequate, but for whatever reasons it was an excellent performer for me today.
Interesting prop stuff
First the bad news: The Xoar 18x10 was mediocre. Not horrible but not nearly as good as the APC 18.1x10. Maybe better with some re-working, however I'm looking for right-out-the-box good.
Up until today, the top contender has been the APC 18.1x10.
That might've changed today after running the APC 15.5x12W. I had little confidence when ordering it - and even less when bolting it on - that it would be suitable for the SAP-180 and a pattern model. When the model took off, it appeared to lack speed and zip, seemingly confirming the low expectations. But after flying through several elements of the Intermediate sequence, I began to realize just how incredibly right it was!
Vertical was unlimited, with authority, and did not lose momentum even with multiple rolling maneuvers. The vertical speed was not as fast as with the 18.1x10, but it had a more ''torque-y'' feel to it, like a good 2C glow engine on a pipe, and the speed was a lot steadier through all maneuvers at 45 deg and SNL. It actually helped me fly the sequence much better than I've flown it before.
On top of all that, it was MUCH QUIETER than the 18.1x10.
I hope one of you longtime pattern guys could give this prop a try. I realize the diameter sounds as if it is not adequate, but for whatever reasons it was an excellent performer for me today.
12 inch pitch is magic for IC and pattern planes I think. It will be quieter in the air with terrific punch through out, after takeoff. That's been my experience with the 17x12 on glow engines. I am not too terribly surprised. And you're right on the mark on the takeoff being a little sluggish. That's consistent with current knowledge on higher pitch
That's where i was driving to with my 18x12 hybrid prop experiments. I will cut the prop down a little when its time, and try again.
Temptress with the SAP will provide a very good comparison between gas and glow 2 strokes. She's ready for the maiden tomorrow. But I will be flying the 18.1x10 until after break in.
04-30-2010 | 10:32 PM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Matt,
No doubt you are correct about the 12" pitch. It just smoothed out everything, much steadier pace. I understand now why you have been somewhat obsessive about getting a 12"-pitch prop to work.
Well, you've been doing this for some decades! But it was a revelation for me, and glad to hear I wasn't dreaming about the apparent lack of zip on take-off.
What is the AUW of your Temptress? Surely a lot lighter than your Enigma test bed, so you are going to be quite happy.
Too bad I have to work tomorrow, or I might've made it down your way to witness.
Best of luck!
No doubt you are correct about the 12" pitch. It just smoothed out everything, much steadier pace. I understand now why you have been somewhat obsessive about getting a 12"-pitch prop to work.
Well, you've been doing this for some decades! But it was a revelation for me, and glad to hear I wasn't dreaming about the apparent lack of zip on take-off.
What is the AUW of your Temptress? Surely a lot lighter than your Enigma test bed, so you are going to be quite happy.
Too bad I have to work tomorrow, or I might've made it down your way to witness.
Best of luck!
05-01-2010 | 02:27 AM
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From: Edmonds,
WA
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Hi Guys
I have been following the this thread quit awhile know and am a novice flyer I have my SAP in a Giant U cando I weigh in at 12-6 running a 18 x 6 voss it runs real good and I am using the battery eliminator and running 100LL.
I just take a 5 gal gas can to the local airport FBO and they send me out to the pump. bring a credit card 4.99 a gal but not smelling the car gas is worth every penny of it if you spill it it will dry and know odor. store the extra gas in a cool place no problem.
Gordon
I have been following the this thread quit awhile know and am a novice flyer I have my SAP in a Giant U cando I weigh in at 12-6 running a 18 x 6 voss it runs real good and I am using the battery eliminator and running 100LL.
I just take a 5 gal gas can to the local airport FBO and they send me out to the pump. bring a credit card 4.99 a gal but not smelling the car gas is worth every penny of it if you spill it it will dry and know odor. store the extra gas in a cool place no problem.
Gordon
05-01-2010 | 07:09 AM
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RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: cmoulder
Matt,
No doubt you are correct about the 12'' pitch. It just smoothed out everything, much steadier pace. I understand now why you have been somewhat obsessive about getting a 12''-pitch prop to work.
Well, you've been doing this for some decades! But it was a revelation for me, and glad to hear I wasn't dreaming about the apparent lack of zip on take-off.
What is the AUW of your Temptress? Surely a lot lighter than your Enigma test bed, so you are going to be quite happy.
Too bad I have to work tomorrow, or I might've made it down your way to witness.
Best of luck!
Matt,
No doubt you are correct about the 12'' pitch. It just smoothed out everything, much steadier pace. I understand now why you have been somewhat obsessive about getting a 12''-pitch prop to work.
Well, you've been doing this for some decades! But it was a revelation for me, and glad to hear I wasn't dreaming about the apparent lack of zip on take-off.
What is the AUW of your Temptress? Surely a lot lighter than your Enigma test bed, so you are going to be quite happy.
Too bad I have to work tomorrow, or I might've made it down your way to witness.
Best of luck!
Temptress has picked up a net of about 4 ozs so she's up to around 10 1/4 lbs now.
I removed the 5 cell 1650 NiMH and replaced it with Ed's regulator and a 2 cell lipo. The net loss there was about 2 ozs. I went to a smaller tank too. The soft mount reduced the weight another 1 1/2 ozs or so. Removed about 15% of the firewall (opened a hole). Tried to make the net difference in weight distribution as small as practical
Moved the battery as far back as practical but it's a much lighter pack so the net effect will be small regarding CG. I was running my CG at just about 30% MAC before, but there will be a net weight increase in the nose. This CG shift should bring it forward to around 27% MAC. I haven't really measured it.
Anyway, I'm finally taking the opportunity to fly Temptress with a much more forward CG than before which should require a couple clicks of up trim. We'll see
05-01-2010 | 07:33 AM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Have a great time. The weather is going to be absolutely perfect.
One thing I did note yesterday is that the coupler slid back on the header. I will put some of the button-head screws on the header this morning.
One thing I did note yesterday is that the coupler slid back on the header. I will put some of the button-head screws on the header this morning.
05-01-2010 | 07:56 AM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2
Best part is, we're finally going to see how the setup performs in warmer weather. Should be in the upper 80's today.
Best part is, we're finally going to see how the setup performs in warmer weather. Should be in the upper 80's today.
My engine is just ever-so-slightly rich, but I didn't touch the needles yesterday because the air was a bit warmer.
05-01-2010 | 08:25 AM
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RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: cmoulder
Matt,
No doubt you are correct about the 12'' pitch. It just smoothed out everything, much steadier pace. I understand now why you have been somewhat obsessive about getting a 12''-pitch prop to work.
Well, you've been doing this for some decades! But it was a revelation for me, and glad to hear I wasn't dreaming about the apparent lack of zip on take-off.
What is the AUW of your Temptress? Surely a lot lighter than your Enigma test bed, so you are going to be quite happy.
Too bad I have to work tomorrow, or I might've made it down your way to witness.
Best of luck!
Matt,
No doubt you are correct about the 12'' pitch. It just smoothed out everything, much steadier pace. I understand now why you have been somewhat obsessive about getting a 12''-pitch prop to work.
Well, you've been doing this for some decades! But it was a revelation for me, and glad to hear I wasn't dreaming about the apparent lack of zip on take-off.
What is the AUW of your Temptress? Surely a lot lighter than your Enigma test bed, so you are going to be quite happy.
Too bad I have to work tomorrow, or I might've made it down your way to witness.
Best of luck!
05-01-2010 | 08:48 AM
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From: Randolph,
NJ
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Ed, it performed quite well yesterday in the mid- to upper 70's.
05-01-2010 | 09:50 AM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2
I guess I should have said hot weather. That's where the rubber meets the road. We'll be in the upper 80's to low 90's today, which ought to give us a pretty good idea of how it may perform when it really gets hot and muggy this summer. It's got to work at Muncie ya' know!
Ed, it performed quite well yesterday in the mid- to upper 70's.
05-01-2010 | 11:03 AM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: gordonhmc
Hi Guys
I have been following the this thread quit awhile know and am a novice flyer I have my SAP in a Giant U cando I weigh in at 12-6 running a 18 x 6 voss it runs real good and I am using the battery eliminator and running 100LL.
I just take a 5 gal gas can to the local airport FBO and they send me out to the pump. bring a credit card 4.99 a gal but not smelling the car gas is worth every penny of it if you spill it it will dry and know odor. store the extra gas in a cool place no problem.
Gordon
Hi Guys
I have been following the this thread quit awhile know and am a novice flyer I have my SAP in a Giant U cando I weigh in at 12-6 running a 18 x 6 voss it runs real good and I am using the battery eliminator and running 100LL.
I just take a 5 gal gas can to the local airport FBO and they send me out to the pump. bring a credit card 4.99 a gal but not smelling the car gas is worth every penny of it if you spill it it will dry and know odor. store the extra gas in a cool place no problem.
Gordon
What are the differences you noticed with 100LL?
Which oil are you using?
05-01-2010 | 12:55 PM
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From: Edmonds,
WA
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Bob
I couldn't tell you due to the fact I don't run the stinky stuff I transport in my van and It is to smelly even the engine smells bad. I did how ever have to richen it up from initial settings I am putting a tunnel and pipe on it, using a mac header and a mac quiet pipe the guys think it was a little noisy stock with the restrictors and I am looking for more authority when pulling out of a hover. But technically speaking a guy could run a couple or degrees of advance on the timing with out a detonation problem, which would give more mid and top end power. but before I did that I would check with Todd.
Gordon
I couldn't tell you due to the fact I don't run the stinky stuff I transport in my van and It is to smelly even the engine smells bad. I did how ever have to richen it up from initial settings I am putting a tunnel and pipe on it, using a mac header and a mac quiet pipe the guys think it was a little noisy stock with the restrictors and I am looking for more authority when pulling out of a hover. But technically speaking a guy could run a couple or degrees of advance on the timing with out a detonation problem, which would give more mid and top end power. but before I did that I would check with Todd.
Gordon
05-01-2010 | 02:09 PM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
If I recall correctly, ghoffman reported close to 10k rpm with a Vess 18x6 and a pipe.
No matter how quiet the exhaust is, that prop at 10k is gonna make one heckuva racket!!
No matter how quiet the exhaust is, that prop at 10k is gonna make one heckuva racket!!
05-01-2010 | 03:29 PM
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From: Meriden, CT
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
I think we measured 88 dB on the test stand with the 18x6 running at 9500 rpm a while back when it was really cold out.
That was right next to a vehicle and near pavement...you could definitely hear the prop singing over the exhaust.
That was right next to a vehicle and near pavement...you could definitely hear the prop singing over the exhaust.
05-01-2010 | 06:44 PM
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RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: cmoulder
If I recall correctly, ghoffman reported close to 10k rpm with a Vess 18x6 and a pipe.
No matter how quiet the exhaust is, that prop at 10k is gonna make one heckuva racket!!
If I recall correctly, ghoffman reported close to 10k rpm with a Vess 18x6 and a pipe.
No matter how quiet the exhaust is, that prop at 10k is gonna make one heckuva racket!!
Top speed in the air had to be at least 8400. It was ripping pretty good. The plane is a very light load compared to what I've been running the SAP in, both in terms of weight and in terms of drag. And BTW, today was pretty warm down here, around 90F and more muggy than we have ever run the engine in before. No problems I could tell...handled great
One good suggestion from today's gallery was to use a 3 bladed prop. I think I have a 15.75x13 3B stock. Worth a try. I need to quiet this thing down
05-01-2010 | 07:04 PM
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RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: MTK
Absolutely. I got 3 in this afternoon using the 18.1x10. I don't think I ever got above half throttle. To be fair, half throttle on my set-up opens the butterfly about 70%. In other words, half throttle is more than half power, more like 3/4. Regardless, the prop is just not enough load. Quite loud compared to glow (same prop). A good break in prop tho, for a piped set-up in a pattern plane.
Top speed in the air had to be at least 8400. It was ripping pretty good. The plane is a very light load compared to what I've been running the SAP in, both in terms of weight and in terms of drag. And BTW, today was pretty warm down here, around 90F and more muggy than we have ever run the engine in before. No problems I could tell...handled great
One good suggestion from today's gallery was to use a 3 bladed prop. I think I have a 15.75x13 3B stock. Worth a try. I need to quiet this thing down
ORIGINAL: cmoulder
If I recall correctly, ghoffman reported close to 10k rpm with a Vess 18x6 and a pipe.
No matter how quiet the exhaust is, that prop at 10k is gonna make one heckuva racket!!
If I recall correctly, ghoffman reported close to 10k rpm with a Vess 18x6 and a pipe.
No matter how quiet the exhaust is, that prop at 10k is gonna make one heckuva racket!!
Top speed in the air had to be at least 8400. It was ripping pretty good. The plane is a very light load compared to what I've been running the SAP in, both in terms of weight and in terms of drag. And BTW, today was pretty warm down here, around 90F and more muggy than we have ever run the engine in before. No problems I could tell...handled great
One good suggestion from today's gallery was to use a 3 bladed prop. I think I have a 15.75x13 3B stock. Worth a try. I need to quiet this thing down
I wish I had a way to govern rpm electronically (like the electron users). Throttle alone won't really do it. I need to discuss with Ed. Or maybe I just need to run it more to get used to the new characteristics....
05-01-2010 | 07:54 PM
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From: Edmonds,
WA
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
In the Giant do you don't want speed it has a very thick wing the thing will fly so slow I landed and a light gust of wind came up and it took back off and stalled it broke landing gear which lead to the tunnel and pipe. so by going to a 19 x 6 would that equate to your 18 x10?
05-01-2010 | 08:16 PM
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From: Olmsted Falls,
OH
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Got a maiden of the Extra and the first run of the Syssa. I polished the non anodized parts and the stand offs. Yeah Iknow no one is going to see them.
Now a chromed header...some neon...and can you say bling!!!
Now a chromed header...some neon...and can you say bling!!!
05-01-2010 | 08:16 PM
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RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: gordonhmc
In the Giant do you don't want speed it has a very thick wing the thing will fly so slow I landed and a light gust of wind came up and it took back off and stalled it broke landing gear which lead to the tunnel and pipe. so by going to a 19 x 6 would that equate to your 18 x10?
In the Giant do you don't want speed it has a very thick wing the thing will fly so slow I landed and a light gust of wind came up and it took back off and stalled it broke landing gear which lead to the tunnel and pipe. so by going to a 19 x 6 would that equate to your 18 x10?
05-01-2010 | 08:53 PM
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From: Edmonds,
WA
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Does any body know what you use on the tach wire to interpret the signal. frequency, voltage or what. On my Frameco tach I got 8700 out of the box with restricters, 100LL at 40:1 non synthetic oil, 18 x 6 I am not convinced the readings are 100% accurate and I want tune my pipe up by the book mac puts out using your guys numbers for a base line.
Gordon
Gordon
05-02-2010 | 06:48 AM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Absolutely. I got 3 in this afternoon using the 18.1x10. I don't think I ever got above half throttle. To be fair, half throttle on my set-up opens the butterfly about 70%. In other words, half throttle is more than half power, more like 3/4. Regardless, the prop is just not enough load. Quite loud compared to glow (same prop). A good break in prop tho, for a piped set-up in a pattern plane.
Top speed in the air had to be at least 8400. It was ripping pretty good. The plane is a very light load compared to what I've been running the SAP in, both in terms of weight and in terms of drag. And BTW, today was pretty warm down here, around 90F and more muggy than we have ever run the engine in before. No problems I could tell...handled great
One good suggestion from today's gallery was to use a 3 bladed prop. I think I have a 15.75x13 3B stock. Worth a try. I need to quiet this thing down
_____________________________
Regards,
MattK
Top speed in the air had to be at least 8400. It was ripping pretty good. The plane is a very light load compared to what I've been running the SAP in, both in terms of weight and in terms of drag. And BTW, today was pretty warm down here, around 90F and more muggy than we have ever run the engine in before. No problems I could tell...handled great
One good suggestion from today's gallery was to use a 3 bladed prop. I think I have a 15.75x13 3B stock. Worth a try. I need to quiet this thing down
_____________________________
Regards,
MattK
Regarding props, I ordered a couple more of the 15.5x12W's from GravesRC because they seem to be an unusual size and therefore perhaps hard to find in the future. Also ordered a 16x12 pattern from Tower to test, which is probably a much more common species that is going to be around a while. If the 16x12 is just not quite the ticket (think "Goldilocks Principle") I will stock up with several more of the 15.5x12W's while they are available.
For the throttle, I started off trying to outsmart the set-up with mechanical differential by setting the servo arm at 90 degrees to the linkage at idle, reasoning that most of the movement of the butterfly would occur at the low end with much less at the high end, where the linkage and the servo arm ended up in a straight line with each other. Then I fiddled around with expo to try to tweak it, mainly because I couldn't figure out how to program a 5-point throttle curve on my 9caps despite much head banging. Sounded fine in theory, but never could get rid of that jump at about 1/3 throttle.
Finally just set it up "normally" with pretty much even arc on either side of the servo range, tweaked the expo a little and for some reason the transition is damned-near perfect with the 15.5x12W. The prop load must be juuuuust right!
You can't beat serendipity.
05-02-2010 | 07:35 AM
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From: Meriden, CT
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Gordon, your numbers sound correct there. Are you looking for 3D performance?
Also, I'm not sure the book will have data for our engine. I'll have a video on the pipe pretty soon showing how to tune it and what numbers to expect.
Also, I'm not sure the book will have data for our engine. I'll have a video on the pipe pretty soon showing how to tune it and what numbers to expect.
05-02-2010 | 07:38 AM
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RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
ORIGINAL: cmoulder
It'll be interesting to see how the 3-blade works out. I suspect it is too much pitch and less efficient, but it will be much quieter. The drop in dB's between the 18.1x10 and the 15.5x12W is quite significant.
Regarding props, I ordered a couple more of the 15.5x12W's from GravesRC because they seem to be an unusual size and therefore perhaps hard to find in the future. Also ordered a 16x12 pattern from Tower to test, which is probably a much more common species that is going to be around a while. If the 16x12 is just not quite the ticket (think ''Goldilocks Principle'') I will stock up with several more of the 15.5x12W's while they are available.
For the throttle, I started off trying to outsmart the set-up with mechanical differential by setting the servo arm at 90 degrees to the linkage at idle, reasoning that most of the movement of the butterfly would occur at the low end with much less at the high end, where the linkage and the servo arm ended up in a straight line with each other. Then I fiddled around with expo to try to tweak it, mainly because I couldn't figure out how to program a 5-point throttle curve on my 9caps despite much head banging. Sounded fine in theory, but never could get rid of that jump at about 1/3 throttle.
Finally just set it up ''normally'' with pretty much even arc on either side of the servo range, tweaked the expo a little and for some reason the transition is damned-near perfect with the 15.5x12W. The prop load must be juuuuust right!
You can't beat serendipity.
It'll be interesting to see how the 3-blade works out. I suspect it is too much pitch and less efficient, but it will be much quieter. The drop in dB's between the 18.1x10 and the 15.5x12W is quite significant.
Regarding props, I ordered a couple more of the 15.5x12W's from GravesRC because they seem to be an unusual size and therefore perhaps hard to find in the future. Also ordered a 16x12 pattern from Tower to test, which is probably a much more common species that is going to be around a while. If the 16x12 is just not quite the ticket (think ''Goldilocks Principle'') I will stock up with several more of the 15.5x12W's while they are available.
For the throttle, I started off trying to outsmart the set-up with mechanical differential by setting the servo arm at 90 degrees to the linkage at idle, reasoning that most of the movement of the butterfly would occur at the low end with much less at the high end, where the linkage and the servo arm ended up in a straight line with each other. Then I fiddled around with expo to try to tweak it, mainly because I couldn't figure out how to program a 5-point throttle curve on my 9caps despite much head banging. Sounded fine in theory, but never could get rid of that jump at about 1/3 throttle.
Finally just set it up ''normally'' with pretty much even arc on either side of the servo range, tweaked the expo a little and for some reason the transition is damned-near perfect with the 15.5x12W. The prop load must be juuuuust right!
You can't beat serendipity.
I've loaded the engine down on purpose, basically to see what it will do. I am with you on this...I definitely have found the outside of the envelope. Just because the engine can turn this size prop at high rpm doesn't mean it is "happy" doing so. That's one key reason throttle response has been so non-linear
Unloading the engine to a degree will probably allow it to handle the way Todd originally designed it. Reason why Sport fliers are turning the small props. Engine is certainly happier and responds more linearly. Focus and Temptress are very similar lighter loads so they don't need a whole lot of prop to fly right. Backing off on prop size ma be the right thing to do
Only have 11 runs on the new engine so far and it is coming along nicely. I feel the compression developing the way it should as the surfaces wear in properly. Hoping to get some flight time today. I'll fly the 17x12 today which is practically the same load as the 18.1x10. I don't expect the throttle to behave any differently but do expect the noise to reduce. I have not found the 15 3/4x13 3B so I am back to well known performers like the 17x12 which is an all around great performing prop for Pattern planes
05-02-2010 | 11:23 AM
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From: Edmonds,
WA
RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
Todd
Yes I am a 3d guy put not serios about just fly for fun I don't time to fly to get ral serious about it.
But what about the tach signal how can I get readings I got accuses to high end meters scope as I am an automatic transmission specialist of more years than I want to count.
Gordon
Yes I am a 3d guy put not serios about just fly for fun I don't time to fly to get ral serious about it.
But what about the tach signal how can I get readings I got accuses to high end meters scope as I am an automatic transmission specialist of more years than I want to count.
Gordon
