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SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

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Old 06-03-2010 | 06:58 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: ghoffman

I am getting ready to maiden mine and am working on the throttle curve. My throttle setup is a little non-linear mechanically, so I am compensating for it in the radio (suggestions welcome). I ran it yesterday, and it is so smooth, really quiet, and is scary powerful on the pipe. People forget that the carb on the Syssa is unique (on 30cc R/C engines at least) in that it has an accelerator pump. Once the carb has gas in it, just work the throttle a couple of times and it will start without the choke, and the throttle response is immediate.
What TX are you using, Gary?

Sometimes expo will do it, but a throttle curve is better if the feature is available.
Old 06-03-2010 | 07:07 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I have a JR 9303, so I am trying to input specific points. BTW, I have not had the pipe slip off yet, I used some stainless steel zip ties for clamps, but I do have some SS button head 2-56's in case it does move.
Old 06-03-2010 | 07:19 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: ghoffman

I have a JR 9303, so I am trying to input specific points. BTW, I have not had the pipe slip off yet, I used some stainless steel zip ties for clamps, but I do have some SS button head 2-56's in case it does move.
Got a link for the stainless steel zip ties??

Just don't clamp the ES pipe too hard... the throat has an aluminum liner, and it can be bent. Early on, I was using a worm gear clamp and managed to deform it slightly.
Old 06-03-2010 | 07:30 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I got them at Lowe's, right next to the plastic ones in the electrical department! You can only tighten them so much, nowhere near like a worm gear hose clamp.
Old 06-03-2010 | 09:12 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: ghoffman

I got them at Lowe's, right next to the plastic ones in the electrical department! You can only tighten them so much, nowhere near like a worm gear hose clamp.
Stop being so difficult!

I think you will eventually need the buttonhead screws. Mine seemed to hold well at first, but eventually there was some slippage. Another annoying little job, but once done the problem is well and truly resolved.
Old 06-03-2010 | 09:25 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I ordered The Prop from Todd its on the way My APC 18 x 6W Spins at 9500 and it is really noisy he says that it will drop 2 to 300 rpm and quit thins down a little looking forward to it

Gordon in rainy Seattle
Old 06-03-2010 | 09:47 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: cmoulder


I think you will eventually need the buttonhead screws. Mine seemed to hold well at first, but eventually there was some slippage. Another annoying little job, but once done the problem is well and truly resolved.
You don't need many screws. I used 6 on the pipe originally which is way too many. On the second set-up I used 3 and it's holding fine. 2 screws is all you need, each, on the pipe and header, about 180 degrees apart.
Old 06-03-2010 | 09:52 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

BTW guys, is anyone else following some of the other threads on gasoline engines? I just browsed through the MT thread and wasn't surprised to see all the crap these guys are going through. Cheap crap all over the modeling unsuspecting public.

In the end, what one pays for the SAP is well worth it just to get the quality and service. Peace of mind.....

Has anyone tried the aircraft permatex high temp form-a-gasket on the exhaust flange?
Old 06-03-2010 | 10:19 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

No, but the Nordlocks on this and the 2 other gassers I have (one flying, the other on a test stand) are keeping the exhaust screws nice and tight with zero backing off. I did see the other posts, and I have to say the Syssa and the OS GT-55 are the nicest I have seen, especially when you look inside them.
Old 06-03-2010 | 01:27 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

You don't need many screws. I used 6 on the pipe originally which is way too many. On the second set-up I used 3 and it's holding fine. 2 screws is all you need, each, on the pipe and header, about 180 degrees apart.
Matt,

Yep, I ended up using only 3 on mine, only because I was too lazy to hassle with removing the header.

Holding up fine!
Old 06-03-2010 | 02:31 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: MTK

BTW guys, is anyone else following some of the other threads on gasoline engines? I just browsed through the MT thread and wasn't surprised to see all the crap these guys are going through. Cheap crap all over the modeling unsuspecting public.

In the end, what one pays for the SAP is well worth it just to get the quality and service. Peace of mind.....

Has anyone tried the aircraft permatex high temp form-a-gasket on the exhaust flange?
The great irony is the Syssa engine is NOT all that much more expensive than the MT engine. The DLE engine seems to run well, and now has a factory rear-carb mod available.

I had to chuckle at guys who bought the side carb engine, then paid $120 more for the home-made, aftermarket "conversion" system. Why not just pay an extra $15 or so and get it right the first time?

Many times I have been similarly pennywise and pound foolish. Never again will I compromise on quality when it comes to engines, servos, airframes, and receivers. The savings simply isn't worth the investment of my time required to make everything work right.

Also I have used the Permatex Ultra Copper for gaskets on other engines (I don't have a Syssa yet). It works very well. Much better than gaskets IMO as it won't expand and contract with heat cycling, which is the real reason we have loose mufflers.
Old 06-03-2010 | 02:43 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I got the noise induction silencer. It is much smaller that I expected. AUW with velocity stack to mount it = 27 grams.


Old 06-03-2010 | 08:17 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

The great irony is the Syssa engine is NOT all that much more expensive than the MT engine. The DLE engine seems to run well, and now has a factory rear-carb mod available.

I had to chuckle at guys who bought the side carb engine, then paid $120 more for the home-made, aftermarket "conversion" system. Why not just pay an extra $15 or so and get it right the first time?

Many times I have been similarly pennywise and pound foolish. Never again will I compromise on quality when it comes to engines, servos, airframes, and receivers. The savings simply isn't worth the investment of my time required to make everything work right.

Also I have used the Permatex Ultra Copper for gaskets on other engines (I don't have a Syssa yet). It works very well. Much better than gaskets IMO as it won't expand and contract with heat cycling, which is the real reason we have loose mufflers.
Well said!

And on top of that, the SAP-180HP comes with an excellent Pitts muffler, top-notch standoffs w/bolts, and a quality ignition switch. And Todd has proven his dedication to customer service.

I only hope that the Syssa brand expands to the point that it becomes a corporate entity (a nice, tight one that continues Todd's level of excellence!) with leadership succession so that its operation continues for a long time into the future.

Unfortunately I had a bad experience with a 'boutique' operation that depended solely upon one or two guys to do everything, and my engine and money disappeared into the ether.
Old 06-03-2010 | 09:46 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Silencer fit nicely into my motor box like I had thought it would. I had to flip my throttle linkage and extend the arm. I'll just mix the improper mechanical throw out. I removed my turbo hose to evaluate its performance and it looks just fine. Their is some cracking of the first layer of the silicon on the back side of the coupler but that was it. My separation between header and pipe was more than a inch. I attempted to put a angle in the coupler to compensate for the right thrust. I don't think it worked out that great once the pipe was fitted in its location. Their is a little up angle on the exhaust manifold plus the 3 degrees of right thrust. So, the compensation should have been down and to the left looking down the pipe. 2/16 on each side of the coupler to get the bend and I am at a 1/4 plug to baffle longer than I should be. I am going to use the 1/2 coupler for my application. Obviously Hoffman is getting good results with that and a low pitch prop. 10g - crazy. Iwill give a report on its report...tommorow.


Old 06-04-2010 | 08:52 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: BTerry


Also I have used the Permatex Ultra Copper for gaskets on other engines (I don't have a Syssa yet). It works very well. Much better than gaskets IMO as it won't expand and contract with heat cycling, which is the real reason we have loose mufflers.
BTerry,

Have you used the Permatex on the bolts? How tough are they to remove after some running? Do you toss the gasket and just have the Permatex form it's own?

Thanks
Old 06-04-2010 | 09:36 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Silencer certainly works great at silencing the induction noise, but it restricts air flow too much.  I am going to try a different sized one.   They advertise it not reducing horsepower... I have to disagree.  The motor sucks alot of air.  Could certainly feel the draw as I was installing the silencer on the velocity stack.  Back up to 9350 on RPM's.  It was the coupler.
Old 06-04-2010 | 09:48 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: tele1974
Back up to 9350 on RPM's. It was the coupler.
So what length do you have now?
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Old 06-04-2010 | 10:37 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I used 5/8ths on the coupler. No clue what the baffle to plug length is.
Old 06-04-2010 | 01:38 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

ORIGINAL: MTK

BTerry,

Have you used the Permatex on the bolts? How tough are they to remove after some running? Do you toss the gasket and just have the Permatex form it's own?

Thanks
Matt,

Normally I use a thin coat of Permatex Ultra Copper on one side of the joint - you don't want so much that it squeezes out all over. Then I fully clean the bolt threads and use the red Loctite 274 high temp (I think that is right) threadlocker. It can be hard to remove, but at least the muffler WILL NOT fall off.

To remove the bolt I touch a hot 70watt soldering iron to the head of the bolt to heat it up. After a 10 seconds or so the bolt can be removed.

Brett
Old 06-04-2010 | 04:42 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

So what do you think it does when the engine is hot? The Nordlocks work without the goo on the threads.
Old 06-04-2010 | 08:17 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Nordlocks are preferable, yes. I also dislike the goo, so I just put a small dab on the bolt thread.

However if my engine gets hot enough to burn off the Loctite (475 F) then I have other problems to worry about. Gas engines typically seize before that temp, and serious permanent damage will occur in the high 300's.
Old 06-06-2010 | 03:58 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: ghoffman

So what do you think it does when the engine is hot? The Nordlocks work without the goo on the threads.
I was doing some maintenance on the Focus today because it was leaking some exhaust around the header flange. Cleaned everything and reinstalled the header with the Nordlocks, using no gasket or liquid sealer. I have heard that if the exhaust port and header flange faces are perfectly flat that there is no need for a gasket or sealer. I cleaned them both very thoroughly and they seem to mate very well. It will be interesting to see what happens. The gasket material ("Perfect Gasket") had held up fairly well for quite a while, but lately there had been an increase in exhaust residue and it was getting a little grimy under the cowl.

While I was at it, I removed the coupler to inspect it. After 73 flights, it was holding up very well. When I split the casing and spread it open to look at it, there were some cracks that opened up as the silicone turbo hose was flexed open, but aside from some glazed charring on the inner layer adjacent to the aluminum spacer, the actual degradation of the hose itself was surprisingly shallow. I have zero doubts that it would have lasted 100 flights and quite possibly 150. The only problem noted was the JB Weld lip on the ES pipe which had cracked (the JB Weld, not the pipe!) and partially separated as I pulled off the silicone hose. I Dremel-ed off the JB Weld remnants and installed some buttonhead screws before installing a fresh piece of silicone turbo hose and zip tying it all back together. I don't expect it will need any more attention for at least 100 flights, and probably a lot more.

Overall, the combination of the Focus II and the SAP-180HP has been working out quite well for someone like me who needs to fly a lot and not have it cost an arm an a leg. I have a total of about 130 flights on the model (long flights, with the 16 oz tank!), and am very happy with the low maintenance and the low cost of fuel, and no hassles with the engine. Just fly the crap out of it (6 flights on one Rx batt charge, easy), recharge and go fly again.

Old 06-06-2010 | 07:57 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: cmoulder


ORIGINAL: ghoffman

So what do you think it does when the engine is hot? The Nordlocks work without the goo on the threads.
I was doing some maintenance on the Focus today because it was leaking some exhaust around the header flange. Cleaned everything and reinstalled the header with the Nordlocks, using no gasket or liquid sealer. I have heard that if the exhaust port and header flange faces are perfectly flat that there is no need for a gasket or sealer. I cleaned them both very thoroughly and they seem to mate very well. It will be interesting to see what happens. The gasket material (''Perfect Gasket'') had held up fairly well for quite a while, but lately there had been an increase in exhaust residue and it was getting a little grimy under the cowl.

While I was at it, I removed the coupler to inspect it. After 73 flights, it was holding up very well. When I split the casing and spread it open to look at it, there were some cracks that opened up as the silicone turbo hose was flexed open, but aside from some glazed charring on the inner layer adjacent to the aluminum spacer, the actual degradation of the hose itself was surprisingly shallow. I have zero doubts that it would have lasted 100 flights and quite possibly 150. The only problem noted was the JB Weld lip on the ES pipe which had cracked (the JB Weld, not the pipe!) and partially separated as I pulled off the silicone hose. I Dremel-ed off the JB Weld remnants and installed some buttonhead screws before installing a fresh piece of silicone turbo hose and zip tying it all back together. I don't expect it will need any more attention for at least 100 flights, and probably a lot more.

Overall, the combination of the Focus II and the SAP-180HP has been working out quite well for someone like me who needs to fly a lot and not have it cost an arm an a leg. I have a total of about 130 flights on the model (long flights, with the 16 oz tank!), and am very happy with the low maintenance and the low cost of fuel, and no hassles with the engine. Just fly the crap out of it (6 flights on one Rx batt charge, easy), recharge and go fly again.

I agree....exhaust leaks seem to be a way of life in my set-up too. I wired the bolts together but that didn't eliminate the problem of loose bolts after 3-6 flights.

Bob, I'm not sure how flat the mating surfaces are on the exhaust flange (actually both of them, the engine's and the header's). The header is easy to get perfectly flat....some 400-600-1000 wet or dry and some oil on a piece of plate glass will hone the flange perfectly flat. Not as easy to do on the engine.

These two mating surfaces need to be as flat as possible to mate properly. Even a 0.001" sliver of opening will leak oil.

BTerry has an apparently good solution with the Permatex Ultra Copper exhaust gasket liquid. That's the way I will go. There is also an Aircraft Exhaust form a gasket from Permatex available. Maybe McMaster Carr has it.

130 flights is a bunch of flying...wow!! I have probably half that many on mine. I use a 14 oz tank which is enough fuel for nearly 3 Masters flights; except my flying buds start to bi....complain when I start the third sequence, so I cut it "short". I've timed myself during the typical flight of two masters sequences...16 minutes and I have about 3-4 ozs remaining when I land.

I will change back to the original 11 ounce tank I started this journey with to be a good neighbor to my buds.
Old 06-07-2010 | 05:00 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

130 flights is a bunch of flying...wow!! I have probably half that many on mine. I use a 14 oz tank which is enough fuel for nearly 3 Masters flights; except my flying buds start to bi....complain when I start the third sequence, so I cut it "short". I've timed myself during the typical flight of two masters sequences...16 minutes and I have about 3-4 ozs remaining when I land.

I will change back to the original 11 ounce tank I started this journey with to be a good neighbor to my buds.
Let's just say that "One thousand one, one thousand two, Roll..." now figures large in my vocabulary. I used to get the turnaround maneuvers mixed up, but now I can do them in my sleep without a call sheet. Now that the flow of the sequence is becoming second nature I can work on the shapes and the lines.

I appreciate the common-courtesy motive behind the smaller fuel tank, but I like the larger one because often enough I am able to fly mid-week at a field where I've got it all to myself, or maybe just one or 2 other guys, so I can fly the sequence a couple of times and not be a "sky hog" about it. If there are a few guys queued up to fly, I'll just do one round and out.

Concerning the exhaust flange issue, I've used the Permatex Copper stuff and still got exhaust gas seepage, as well as the gasket alone, and Permatex and a gasket combined. I have not tried the multi-layered gasket with the metallic material, nor the "Coke can gasket", so maybe those are next. Seems to me the biggest part of the problem is the very tiny amount of space between the exhaust channel and the bolt holes on the Macs header. Not much flat surface there to work with, maybe a little over 1/16" wide.

Old 06-07-2010 | 01:23 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Based on all of you guys' input, I decided to give the Ultra Copper gasket sealant, Nord-Lock washers, red silicone on the threads and aluminum sheet gasket stock a try on the exhaust. Todd torques the bolts to 100 inch-pounds so throw that variable in the mix too.

We'll see how well that holds up. I (and every one here) need a leak free exhaust system that will stay on for 200 flighst not just 2.


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