jrpav1

My Feedback: (17)

Yup, I'm still here. I'm not flying much - very busy with my house and consulting work. I'll see you guys some time this year though - probably at the finale in Jackson (Oasis). I really want to watch Matt fly the Temptress with the SAP-180. It sounds like he's got the setup pretty well tuned at this point.

John Pavlick
Team Black Magic

MTK

I had a small scrape on my prop tips recently so I wound up sanding a set of matching tips on the 17x12, which now is 16.4x12

I thought the engine ran fine with the stock 17x12 but now it runs even better it seems. As Bob has found out running his 15.5x12 wide blades, the engine loves to spool up. With this apparently small mod to the prop (accidents sometimes help), I picked up a couple hundred rpm. Flying didn't change at all.

The only downside I see is that now the tank gets used up faster.

highfly3D

In comparison with YS 170DZ will the SAP 180 be good enough for a FAI masters flying in terms of torque, low vibration & low noise?

NJRCFLYER2

My Feedback: (42)

The SAP180 is a good alternative to 2C glow choices. However, there is no comparison to a YS 170DZ in terms of torque. As with any 2C vs. 4C, it bangs the airframe less. Set up as Matt has it, it sounds just like a 140RX on a pipe, i.e., it is louder and higher pitched than a YS. I would not consider it competitive against the YS or an electric set up above Advanced class.

MTK

My set-up is quite competitive in Masters now. The YS170 has more torque at midrange and is capable of hauling larger props at lower rpm than the SAP180. Doesn't mean you can't use the SAP for anything you want though. The plane should be no more than 10 1/2 pounds.....

I personally use the set-up.... BUT I am not getting scored. Even when I fly a good round I get much lower than I should. It's probably inconsistency on my part, one good one not so good that's doing me in. That's what you get for taking 5 years off

Noise is slightly higher than glow 2 strokes or 4 strokes. Shake is better than 2 strokes and much much better than 4 strokes. All should use soft mounts. There are NO commercially available soft mounts for the SAP. I built my own and have a tutorial on doing them on RCU

F3A is a different ball game however....it needs the best, widest speed envelope available and having flown Dave Lockhart's e-Bravo, no wet powered set-up available today compares to that set-up. The brakes afforded are just like cheating

cmoulder

Matt,

This matches what I've seen - excellent performance with the APC 16x12 pattern prop. I still think the 15.5x12W is a skosh better.

I have a clutch of test props - some of them run less than 5 minutes - that I will sell as a lot pretty soon. Just about everything in the 18x10 to 17x13 range.

MTK

I've got a couple photos so I wanted to bring the thread to the first page for easy find

MTK

Not exactly SAP 180 HP related but the engine will go into this plane. Nearly all the base colors are finally applied

MTK

The gear is installed in similar fashion to that used on WistModel planes. I added a more secure socket set-up that each gear plugs into. Each gear is bolted down on the opposite side with a single 4-40 bolt just to keep the gear from coming out laterally. The sockets and gear flexing do the rest. Sockets may be lined with rubber during the construction to greatly reduce noise

The cannards are there for show (BG)

tele1974

Hey... did you hear their is a new Syssa on the way...

ghoffman

My Feedback: (3)

Yes, I heard! All I heard is that the new one will weigh in at 3Kg or so, but I doubt it is a twin. I wonder, my OS GT-55 is 1.59kg so what would it be????

cmoulder

WOW! I can't wait to see it fly![sm=thumbup.gif]

Any projections on the AUW?

MTK

Bob,

I have final trim, lettering and pin striping yet to apply and then the clear. I expect to pick up about another 5-6 ozs or so which will bring weight to 5# 6 give or take. Equipment is pretty close to 5 lbs so probably around 10 # 6, maybe a little more.

The plane is considerably bigger than Temptress, much wider and deeper fuse. Wing is a little larger too. I should be able to see this scheme better than I can see Temptress. Temptress almost disappears in overcast sky...too much white.

The large cheks on the bottom should be better visual ques as should the top ckecked areas on the tips. At my age I need all the help I can get in terms of visibility.

Temptress told me why I couldn't draw a straight line the past month. The left aileron servo finally went...almost wrecked the plane in the process. I was very lucky only suffering canopy and rudder scratches and slight cracks. Oh, the plane flipped on it's right wing tip landing on its back when the left aileron went full down uncommanded. This on the TO roll. Very lucky to have the plane

flyncajun

Hey Matt,,
Nice work , like always

I like the forward canards are those cheekcowelizers?

did you use slikspan and dope, or glass and auto paints?
Bryan

tele1974

Should be at least a 170cc from looking at common weights. But that is a twin...

tele1974

I know their are a hundred and one planes out their.  But, what pattern planes would be a good fit for the Syssa and why?

MTK

Bryan, thanks,

Silkspan and nitrate dope to do initial sealing/bedding then KlassKote epoxy paints to fill and primer stage. I keep trying to come up with a simpler way to bed and prep but no matter how you slice it, it's a lot of elbow grease

Paints are Stits vinyl base one part uncatalyzed. Similar to dope in consistency, pigment content and application. The yellow doesn't cover worth a damn unfortunately. But all the other colors were much much better. Clear coat will be Omni 2 part Poly U.
\
BTW- Stits are full scale paints designed to be gasoline proof. FM Enterprizes (Grand Prairie, TX) has formulas for both Full Scale and Models. They charge the same for the full scale (more concentrated) and model (premixed with correct amount of solvent). I bought the full sclae type and a gallon of thinner. I premixed about 8 colors and stored them in water bottles. Works fine.

Overall weight build up is reasonable for a plane this large. Wanted less than 5 lbs but didn't quite make it

Oh, one thing of interest to all who paint, Stits offers something called FC900 which is their filler/primer paint. I really liked this material. Easy to spray, quick drying and sands to feather edges extremely easily and fast. May be sprayed with Stits top coat or Poly U and allows very smooth flow out

MTK

You want a pattern model that worked well with the OS140RX, OS160 and webra 145 or YS 160.

The current trend seems to be humongous fuselages but smaller wings...these may have some problem flying the way they should and probably should be avoided, because these are often built heavier than 10 1/2 lbs and are draggy by design. The SAP is a fine product that produces around 4 HP but develops its max torque at 9K or so.....it likes to spool up to minimum 83-8400 to be in its happy zone. The 17x12 apc is the upper limit in hot weather and I was stretching it a bit by only getting 81-8200. Bob uses the 15.5x12 wide and mine has been cut down to 16.4x12 from 17x12. My engine likes the smaller diameter much better

But almost all older style fuses (narrower and not quite as deep as the current trend) weighing in at 10 1/2 lbs or less RTF, will work great with the SAP. I must explain that I demand Masters level performance from my set-up, hence the performance envelope I discussed. In lower classes where the vertical stuff is not as demanding, you may use the system on a heavier or larger plane. This is a sport engine that I adapted for pattern use, after all.

For example, the engine flies an 11 1/2 lb EF Extra which has a much larger fuse than the largest pattern fuse flying today, giving it reasonable performance for sport and 3D. It would be competitive in Sportsman and maybe Intermediate but probably no higher. I've flown Masters with the set-up but weather was cooler and wind was less than 10 mph. Engine was really singing its tune, in other words

BTW, I built a nose ring for mine finally. It is identical to what Bob Moulder posted a bunch of pages ago. Mine is a simple slab of 1/32" aircraft ply, notched out at the Hall sensor, and glassed on both sides with light cloth. Then a piece of 1/8" ID soft nitrile tube is slit and installed in the ID, and glued in place with ca. No tube in the Hall sensor notch necessary.

Hope that answers the questions

MTK

OH YEAH BABE!!!! OR CHEEKAs FOR SHORT??
If they don't work, they are removable. One of these days I just might build that egg crate for the prop slip stream

flyncajun

Matt,
I `m debating on using a product called pollyspan for my wings nitrate dope then regular auto finish
Do you have any experiance with this product? it looks great!and a little more durable than Silkspan.

BTW
Do you have a before and after weight chart for the system your using verses Monocaote?



Bryan

MTK

Bryan,

I have a general weight gain, not after each step. Let's talk wing panels.....area is 525 sq inches; each panel complete with socket and servo mount in place before any covering but including aileron was 245-250 grams (just <9ozs). I fitted the panels to the fuse and built a fillet at the joint, adding another 1/4 oz. So each panel before covering was 9 1/4 ozs.

At this stage of finish, with no clear coat or lettering, my panels are 12 1/2 ozs. Add maybe another ounce for clear and lettering, and final weight should be around 13 1/2 ozs.

A monokoted panel would have been around 12-12 1/2 ozs finished and ready for equipment.

I picked up unnecessary weight in the yellow paint...it took 6 coats to hide almost everything and it is still not as solid as I would like. A different color would need 2 coats and much less weight. BTW- initially I used yellow KlassKote original formula and that didn't hide either and weighed even more than Stits. I sanded it all off and started over.

KlassKote new yellow formula hides similar to KB according to Ed Alt who used the stuff. I wish I had known in time. Lots and lots of unnecessary work.

To answer the question, I believe the method can produce as light if not slightly lighter weight gain than monokote. But have got to have good, solid pigment, opaque paints.

I wish there was a way to paint a whole scheme using a water based color cartridges used in printers. Just use a PC and plotter. Just imagine the design precision and complexity possible at very low weight gain. This should be straight forward for a CAD guy to develop the application. The plotter would need to be capable of 3D, like a robot

Dave Harmon

Matt.....I have unbuilt Smragd and Partner kits, do you think the SAP 180 would be ok for these two airplanes?

MTK

Bryan,

On polyspan, I'm not sure.

I have some quantity of something that may be similar that has heat activated adhesive backing built in, like some fabrics. It is lighter-thinner than monokote but heavier than the paper so I've not used it on anything. I expect the finished weight after paint to be higher than monolkote. The big positive is that filling would be minimal and should be less work over all. Shrinks just like any of the polyester plastics or fabrics...with heat.

If polyspan is applied with nitrate and doesn't need much filling to seal and doesn't need heat to shrink, it may work the best of all of these materials. Would you send me a piece for a rudder or stab?

MTK

Dave,

I am not sure of the weight these planes come in at. Size-wise they shouldn't be too much of a problem but weight could be a problem (if greater than around 10 1/2 lbs) for the kind of performance we demand now from our planes.

Short answer, if a 140RX worked fine, the SAP will work fine too. If the 140RX was not enough, the SAP may not be enough either but it would depend. The SAP puts out more power than the RX but needs to turn higher rpm to develop its torque. Just stretching the pipe does not get the same result as it does with glow.

Bottom line, I "think" these planes are a bit smaller than the current crop being built so they should be able to be built at reasonable weight. Drag shouldn't be much more than my Temptress so the SAP should work pretty well.

Dave Harmon

Thanks Matt.
Back when these planes were the schnizzle I remember guys using the OS 140EFI and I thought the engine performance was adequate.
So....mebby there is a future for these kits yet. Recently, I checked the available pipe space for the ES pipe you have been using and there is plenty of room.
Sounds like a nifty winter project.....

Thanks again.