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SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Old 06-30-2011, 06:13 PM
  #1451  
tele1974
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Guess not. . Have you guys read about the Monolog designed by the Korean F3a champ. They are releasing it in three sizes one of which will accept the DLE 20, a 400 size and a full out 2 meter size.
Old 06-30-2011, 07:25 PM
  #1452  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

ORIGINAL: tele1974

Guess not. . Have you guys read about the Monolog designed by the Korean F3a champ. They are releasing it in three sizes one of which will accept the DLE 20, a 400 size and a full out 2 meter size.
I've heard very little about the plane. Don't know how it will perform but just looking at the photos, the 140 size looks good. Put an SAP in it. BTWafter about 3 gallons of Avgas now, my number1 engine performs significantly better than last year on the same prop and pipe setting, and is quieter....very similar sound to a Neu geared electric in the air!!

I've not seen a DLE20 yet in a plane. I recently saw a DLE30 in an IMAC/Sport model and I was not impressed. Probably was not tuned correctly, sounding really fat and sort of wallowing in the sky. The guy said he had 10 gallons through it so it should have been well broken in... but one never knows another guy's level of expertise or comfort. DLE is fast developing a good reputation as the best Chinese engine maker and with good service support from a couple US reputable outfits, their products should be around for a while.

Would love to see a 55cc or 60cc single from Todd though. Really good market for that size especially as light and strong as Todd's engine would be
Old 07-01-2011, 03:02 AM
  #1453  
tele1974
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Doesn't he have a 60 twin coming out? I have read that in a number of places. I found a place to score some Avgas... that was easier then I thought is was going to be. The manager of the Jet center must fly RC.
Old 07-01-2011, 03:38 AM
  #1454  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Tele, I got to see Matt's model at a couple of contests recently and the performance with Avgas is significantly better. Sounds much quieter as well with the much softer detonation of high-octane fuel. Does not even sound like a gasser even when idling, which is usually the giveaway. Anybody who didn't already know it was a gasser would swear it was a 2-stroke glow on the pipe.
Old 07-01-2011, 11:30 AM
  #1455  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

ORIGINAL: tele1974

Doesn't he have a 60 twin coming out? I have read that in a number of places. I found a place to score some Avgas... that was easier then I thought is was going to be. The manager of the Jet center must fly RC.
I guess I should have mentioned that Avgas 100LL is one of the main gasolines (along with Jet fuel) sold at every airport. Many Muni airports and Regional airports will often have self service. Bring your gas can and your credit card and you should be ready to pump. I just so happen to fly RC at a small Muni airport that happens to have the cheapest Avgas around. At 5.60$ a gallon it's bargain

The 60 twin from Todd should be hitting the market around Fall from the last conversation I had with him. It may be heavy for pattern but should be terrific for the 16 lb IMAC 30% planes available now.

With the help of a machinist friend I just put a DLE55 on a diet and managed to get the weight down to 42.8 ozs, shaving about 3 1/2 ozs. I believe that Todd could make a 55 single at 38 ozs which will put it in similar weight range as the YS170, but at considerable HP advantage. Problem would then become tail heaviness....Geeeeezzz you just can't win
Old 07-10-2011, 10:03 AM
  #1456  
tele1974
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Alright I am totally hooked now. I just finished my first pattern contest at Weak Signals and waiting for Masters and Advanced to finish. Definatly going to get serious about finding a pattern ship for the Syssa now.

First contest - 1st place in Sportsman!
Old 07-12-2011, 05:34 AM
  #1457  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Congratulations!
Old 07-13-2011, 04:09 PM
  #1458  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Congrats, Patrick!

I finally got a chance to read the thread and found out that you have a first name!!

Plug that Syssa into a decent pattern plane and you will notice a world of difference between it and the Venus II. Although the V2 is a good model and I learned a lot from flying it, it cannot deliver the crispness and precision of a more modern design. I know there is a movement to "save the V2", but GP made the right decision to move on to other things.

Old 07-26-2011, 07:19 PM
  #1459  
tele1974
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I have been reading about pipe set ups because I was curious about the physics. I am wondering how you guys came up with your header length. Did you start out with the formula for a flat disk pipe and then adjust from their?
I'm just trying to understand the numbers. I measured the exhaust port timing and came up with 170 degrees. Correct me if I am wrong.

Exhaust port timing (1200) / RPMs. = Length from disk to face of piston

Calculating it backward with estimated RPMs of 7500 that would equal the reccomened disk to face measurement of 27 inches.
But here's where I'm confused, ghoffman was turning 10g on a 18x6 prop with the same setup. Wouldnt the timing be off at that RPM? Interesting to learn about. I must be missing something thou.
Old 07-26-2011, 07:57 PM
  #1460  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: tele1974

I have been reading about pipe set ups because I was curious about the physics. I am wondering how you guys came up with your header length. Did you start out with the formula for a flat disk pipe and then adjust from their?
I'm just trying to understand the numbers. I measured the exhaust port timing and came up with 170 degrees. Correct me if I am wrong.

Exhaust port timing (1200) / RPMs. = Length from disk to face of piston

Calculating it backward with estimated RPMs of 7500 that would equal the reccomened disk to face measurement of 27 inches.
But here's where I'm confused, ghoffman was turning 10g on a 18x6 prop with the same setup. Wouldnt the timing be off at that RPM? Interesting to learn about. I must be missing something thou.
Patrick, (now that I know your name I'll use it)

There was no calculation involved actually. Ed Skorepa had done the experimental work on other similarly sized gas engines and set up his pipe accordingly, with the reflection baffle set at the proper location for available headers. Turned out that the OS and Webra headers from Macs were a drop in working solution. It turned out that as I stretched the pipe from 27" to the baffle (from center of cylinder) to as long as 31", not much difference in performance was noted. Prop selection plays a role but it appears to be a lesser role than in glow engines because it's an ignition set-up. At least, as long as the engine can haul the prop of choice

When the engine is underloaded as with the smaller props the sport guys use, the pipe will continue to provide the boost such that the engine will just spool up. Ignition just keeps on firing away. The engine might get even higher boost if the pipe length was shortened some more at 9500-10000. Some equilibrium will result at some rpm.

I saw better, more consistent output with a bit less load than I ran much of last year....I was using a 17x12 apc, but switched to a 16x12 around September last year (Bob was kind enough to send me one) and realized the engine was happier with that load. Then at the start of this year I went to Avgas and realized the engine was also quieter than last year.

But Avgas slows down the burn a lot which will tend to carry the flame front further down into the exhaust port. My number 1 pipe has had a small leak develop just downstream of the ally stem. I've figured that the epoxy has possibly been lost at a few carbon cloth interstices from the higher heat. No big deal, the pipe just gets a small streak of oil on its surface after a run. I've since sealed the pipe with a layer of glass and Ultra Copper and haven't seen any more leaks.
Old 10-09-2011, 02:50 PM
  #1461  
tele1974
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I installed the Syssa in my Venus II and got a couple of flights in this afternoon and it appears it going to be a good combination for pattern practice for what's left of this season and next years contest. I setup it up because I had no choice but to setup an inexpensive running combo. I ran the 15x12 APC prop and it has more than enough power for me flying sportsman. This is the first I have ran the stock pitts muffler and wow it's loud. I'm not able to run my pipe and I would like to quiet the Syssa as much as it can.
What can i do to lower the decibels other an the atenuators that Todd offers. Can a I use Briggs or Echo muffler on it? I understand that the back pressure would reduce it's power.
Old 10-09-2011, 10:26 PM
  #1462  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)



I am running a DLE20 ina TWM Spot On 120R.
No rpoblem withnoise, itsactually quieter thana few of the electric set ups.
I'm runningthe engine on a Weston UK Mini aerobatc pipe for 1.08 to 1.20 cui glow engines. I alsonoticed that pipe lenghthas little to do with the performance but it sure does drop the decibels by quite a margin. The engine sounds like a O.S. 140RX on a tuned pipe now.

Old 10-10-2011, 12:46 AM
  #1463  
tele1974
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Theirs no room for a pipe on the Venus II. I t has a under mount wing and a belly pan.
Old 10-10-2011, 02:37 AM
  #1464  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

it can run along the outside of  the fuselag and under the wing root surely..

BTW, the Mini pipe is not very long
Old 10-10-2011, 11:37 AM
  #1465  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: tele1974

I installed the Syssa in my Venus II and got a couple of flights in this afternoon and it appears it going to be a good combination for pattern practice for what's left of this season and next years contest. I setup it up because I had no choice but to setup an inexpensive running combo. I ran the 15x12 APC prop and it has more than enough power for me flying sportsman. This is the first I have ran the stock pitts muffler and wow it's loud. I'm not able to run my pipe and I would like to quiet the Syssa as much as it can.
What can i do to lower the decibels other an the atenuators that Todd offers. Can a I use Briggs or Echo muffler on it? I understand that the back pressure would reduce it's power.
Patrick,

If the mufflers you suggested will fit, try them. I've never used the stock Syssa muffler so I'm not sure what to expect. One thing that has helped glow engines before is stuffing the muffler with steel wool. But you've got to find out a good balance between noise attenuation and power reduction. The attenuators Todd sells for the muffler work fairly well as I understAND IT, but again, I've not done it myself.

Old 10-10-2011, 11:46 PM
  #1466  
Stuart D
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Has anyone tried a 16 x 11 x 3 blade yet . I keep hearing 15 x 12... 16 x 12... all along the old RX 140 as a base line .

I have flown the PO and FO seq with a 30cc gas (on 16 x 11 x 3 )and the the plane hauls through the pattern .

Stu

BTW:- NO a tuned pipe , it's just a simple rear exit cannister


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Old 10-11-2011, 02:29 AM
  #1467  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I would be surprised if a 16x11x3 worked very well. It is probably too much load, especially without a pipe. I used to runa 15 3/4x11x3 on a piped OS 140RX and that was a good combo. The SAP 180 wants to unwind to produce best power, and Isuspect that you would need something smaller, down in the 15 and change diameter, and maybe only 10 pitch. If you ran a pipe, the 15 3/4x11x3 would be just fine. You may have to modify an existing prop.
Old 10-11-2011, 05:03 AM
  #1468  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Patrick, try Todd's "tone inserts" first because they do help significantly, and even though they reduce the power a bit you'll still have plenty on tap. I have seen them in use and they take out a lot of the harshness and reduce the sound volume.
Old 10-11-2011, 07:47 AM
  #1469  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Hatori 821.


Why the small props? The DLE20 is turning a 16x8 or 16x10 and even 17x6 or 17x8 Xoar in the TWM Spot ON 120R.
The Syssa 30 is supposed to be more powerful engine so hauling a 2x2 around should be no problem for it.
I've seen the RCGF32 pull 5.3Kg Pilot RC YAK 54's straight up with no problem
Old 10-11-2011, 08:19 AM
  #1470  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

ORIGINAL: TimBle

Hatori 821.


Why the small props? The DLE20 is turning a 16x8 or 16x10 and even 17x6 or 17x8 Xoar in the TWM Spot ON 120R.
The Syssa 30 is supposed to be more powerful engine so hauling a 2x2 around should be no problem for it.
I've seen the RCGF32 pull 5.3Kg Pilot RC YAK 54's straight up with no problem
The SAP180 is much more powerful than the DLE20cc. The only drawback of this sport engine which we've adapted for pattern use is the fact that it is happiest revving at 8500 to 9500 rpm. It will turn a 17x12 apc standard blade at around 82-8400 but needs to run a bit richer to do so and doesn't necessarily like it. It isn't as happy turning the bigger load. But it works and I ran nearly a full season with that combo.

I've run mine with as much as 19x10 on pipe and it ran fine for several flights. Just wasn't happy running there at lower rpms (8K). It doesn't sound like much, only a few 100 rpm....but believe me, it's a big difference in engine performance

On Bob's recommendation (and prop loaning), I started running a 16x12 apc standard blade late last year and have been running that prop since. RPM is around 8800-9000 and it certainly needs different throttle command than other powerplants but it flies my Temptress exceedingly well. It's not the powerplant that determines the best scores, as long as there is enough power. This engine delivers more than enough for a 11 pound airplane at full revs.

It's the partial revs and mid throttle settings that are not as good as glow counterparts which are designed and intended for Pattern flying. Hope this helps explain things. Most of this stuff has been hashed and rehashed in this thread several times over.
Old 10-11-2011, 01:20 PM
  #1471  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

yeah, sounds to me like its a fairly peaky engine and therefore not suited to pattern.

I guess you could re-jet the carb to provide more consistent fuel feed across a broader rpm range but then you better know what you're doing.

Have you tried a DLE30 or RCGF 32 or Mintor 33 or Evolution/MVVS 26/30cc in that plane?
Old 10-11-2011, 03:55 PM
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tele1974
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I flew my Syssa on a pipe and it pulled my 14.5 Extra 300 out of a hover nicely. But pulling a vertical up line then into a humpty into a strong wind it sat their on the back side trying to make. I think I heard one of the judge saying, "I think I can I think I can". For that setup I was flying too big anyway. In my Venus the Syssa should have no problem. And that's on the stock muffler.

I am running the 15x12 wide prop on it and I am not getting much down line braking. I can hear it spooling up on the down-line at low throttle then my pullouts are faster than I would like them to be. I might be just me I am still pretty green. Do I need to keep some throttle in. I think I read that somewhere, or is that the electric guys that need to do that.

I will try the attenuators. I have heard about the steel wool trick thou.
Old 10-11-2011, 08:12 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: TimBle

yeah, sounds to me like its a fairly peaky engine and therefore not suited to pattern. Have you tried a DLE30 or RCGF 32 or Mintor 33 or Evolution/MVVS 26/30cc in that plane?
That's the thing though, several of us have used the engine for pattern with good results. I fly AMA Masters schedule respectably with my set-up. The issue is my flying, not the fault of my set-up. I could have the latest wiz bang electric system or YS 2000 and still have the same issues, make the same errors, etc etc.

On the Mintor 33, it's really interesting little gassie but I can't get the local guy here in the states to return phone calls. I also want to see the new OS 33.

If I recall, you were playing with a Mintor 33....how did it go? Is it piped? Soft mounted? pattern application? Which plane?
Old 10-11-2011, 10:53 PM
  #1474  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

AH the Mintor, I've not got it mounted in anything yet.

The internal debate is do I mount it in a JetLegends Neptuno or in a EG Aircraft YAK 55SP M? I have not settled on that debate yet as I enough planes to fly and I have been concentrating on my pattern schedules with the SPot ON.
I hvae run the Mintor and it does appear, on the bench, to be an ideal engine for pattern in that it seems to be quite smooth in transition through the rpm range.

I won't be able to tell for sure till I drop the cash on the Neptuno but thats only looking like early next year the moment.

You could remove some of the peakiness through adjusting your throttle curve.
How I went about that was I set the curve up linearly at first with the servo set up as recommended for a gasser i.e. with mechanical expo for the first 45degrees of servo arm travel.
I noted the rpm increase against the graduated points on the throttle stick. I then noted what rpm should be achieved at each point and then set the curve up till I got near as dammit.
So the DLE gives me excellent transition now and also there more than enough power to achieve a fairly decent upline of around 8seconds before the SPot On runs out of steam (the airframe is 500gr heavier than advertised).

The Syssa should be having no trouble pulling a 2x2 around. Its worth investing some time to get it running properly.
Old 01-27-2012, 08:50 AM
  #1475  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Matt,

Noticed you were on line and thought I would ask about the status of potential gassers for pattern. Appears most folks are in hibernation relative to news on the SAP 180. I fly a few contests each year (D5) using an OS 160 in an Impact. Am considering switching to gas in a new airplane. Will this thread continue to be active? Is there another thread on the subject of pattern and gassers? Is there another engine showing promise being discussed elsewhere? Thanks.

John

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