Entry level smaller pattern kit.
12-10-2009 | 10:23 AM
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From: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I am just learning pattern flying. I have used an Ultra Sport 60, but want to move up. The Venus II or Focus Sport are the size airplanes that I am looking for. The main problem is that I enjoy building almost as much as flying. I would like to use an OS120AX or the 4 cycle OS120. Both of these seem to work well in this size airplane. Truthfully, I can't afford a YS engine nor the 30% nitro to run it. I do want a kit though, not an ARF. Suggestions???
12-10-2009 | 11:49 AM
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I was looking at the CA Models Epsilon. It comes in a few sizes. I've never flown one, but seems like a good choice for a first kit (also comes as ARF and ARC):
http://www.camodel.com.ar/modelos/airplanes.htm
http://www.camodel.com.ar/modelos/airplanes.htm
12-10-2009 | 11:54 AM
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From: Richland,
WA
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
If you really like to build, you might consider Jim Hiller's Option 120. Really flies well on a 120AX. He cleaned my clock (and everyone else in Dist *) in Advanced pattern with it. There are at least 3 guys I know that have recently built or are building them now.
The last contact info I had on him is [email protected]
I'll try to get him tonight and get better contact info like a phone number.
The last contact info I had on him is [email protected]
I'll try to get him tonight and get better contact info like a phone number.
12-13-2009 | 12:22 PM
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From: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I E-mailed Jim Hillar..He doesn't make kits, just plans are available. The Epsilon 90 looks great, but try as hard as I can, I can't find a price for it. It almost seems like they just offer the 40 and 120 size. The more I read, the more it looks like the VenusII ARF is about the best choice. People say that is better built and tougher than the FocusII etc. It amases me that today an ARF is cheaper than a comparable kit and you can't find the good stuff in kit form. The Epsilon might be an exception if I can ever find the price. I do like a 2 piece wing with a tube though.
12-13-2009 | 01:40 PM
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From: Vilnius, LITHUANIA
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
In these days there is more modern planes than Epsilon that are made for beginner in F3A, cheap 4-8s electric plane are quite popular in these days. I love my small Vanquish from Extreme Flight. Also SebArt fill this gap with older AngleS and new MisWind50 and new Wind are great options. Why you want to build kit? In my opinion ARF'S are much better way to start, when you calculate glues, film, and some extra material you need ( not mentioning time you need to build plane) price is about same as good ARF. Other thing is if you like building more than flying.
12-13-2009 | 01:49 PM
#7
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I've been flying a kit built Epsilon 90 with an OS .91 FX for a year and a half and I really like it.
I purchased the kit from netboxhobby.com. At the time their site showed the kit as out of stock but I called and he added it to his next order. I had it in about a month or two. So you might give them a call and see if they can get one for you.
Dave
I purchased the kit from netboxhobby.com. At the time their site showed the kit as out of stock but I called and he added it to his next order. I had it in about a month or two. So you might give them a call and see if they can get one for you.
Dave
12-13-2009 | 04:26 PM
#8
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I had the Venus II and I liked it a lot. I didn't get the Focus Sport because I thought the Venus looked cooler, and I guess because the VII is a bit easier of an assembly.
However the Focus is an actual pattern design - it is a shrunken down 2M airplane. The Venus, as much as we all like it, is a sport plane from Great Planes. Most of GP planes are 'overbuilt' and on the heavy side. The Venus is built like a tank, probably to handle the abuse that us newer pilots give to airplanes.
I found the big 1-piece wing a pain to carry around and install/uninstall. If I could get over the 'looks' thing, I would have liked to try the Focus, it's just more of a professional model. There are some very detailed build threads on the Focus.
All this being said, I do not regret starting with the VII and I'd still be flying it if I weren't looking to get into electric flight - it is a lot of fun to fly.
However the Focus is an actual pattern design - it is a shrunken down 2M airplane. The Venus, as much as we all like it, is a sport plane from Great Planes. Most of GP planes are 'overbuilt' and on the heavy side. The Venus is built like a tank, probably to handle the abuse that us newer pilots give to airplanes.
I found the big 1-piece wing a pain to carry around and install/uninstall. If I could get over the 'looks' thing, I would have liked to try the Focus, it's just more of a professional model. There are some very detailed build threads on the Focus.
All this being said, I do not regret starting with the VII and I'd still be flying it if I weren't looking to get into electric flight - it is a lot of fun to fly.
12-17-2009 | 01:30 PM
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From: suburb of chicago,
IL
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I've been looking at the very same thing and have found there really aren't many options available for kit-builders. I've considered copying the Venus II and building one from scratch, making a few changes along the way (two piece wing placed a bit higher on the fuse, symmetrical & removeable stab). This could allow someone to build their own yet still use readily available cowls and canopies...
If I could get my hands on a VII that's damaged or worn-out I would certainly try and build one myself...
There are new planes being built by dreadnaut and alex vociu in this size range so I'm very interested in seeing how they perform when completed.
If I could get my hands on a VII that's damaged or worn-out I would certainly try and build one myself...
There are new planes being built by dreadnaut and alex vociu in this size range so I'm very interested in seeing how they perform when completed.
12-17-2009 | 04:39 PM
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From: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Will he kit that new airplane? With regard to the VenusII mods, I think the same way, but the Focus Sport is about the same size as the Venus II and it has the 2 piece wing and airfoil stab. I have heard that it is a fragile airplane. It does have foam wings which I guess are OK. The ARC is close in price to the Venus II, but they want $50.00 for shipping. That's a lot for shipping a 4 lb. box. You can't beat Tower for low prices, rebate coupons, and free shipping. I don't know what to do. I thought the new OS95AX might be a nice engine for a little smaller plane than these 2, but I found out that they sell for $10.00 more than the 120AX. What's with that? I do know that the 120AX is an awesome, powerfull, and vibration free powerplant. It doesn't need Hyde mounts or nose rings either. I guess it burns a lot of fuel, but the fuel is 10%.
12-17-2009 | 05:09 PM
#11
My Feedback: (8)
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I think the 120AX does pretty good on fuel and runs great on 10%.
I would say that if you're worried about a fragile airframe, go with the Venus. Let that tank take the abuse until you can smooth things out.
There is a pretty big difference in design between a Venus and professionally designed pattern plane. I just got a SebArt plane and while it's similar in size (and color) the quality and design is totally different. The Focus is more like a modern pattern plane, the Venus is a sport plane with little dihedral, tall fuse, and a long tail moment.
Shipping companies charge you for shipping large parcels. $50 is high in comparison to Tower, but low in comparison to what you or I would pay to ship it. Piedmont or Central sell much less volume than Tower so they don't get the shipping deals. Not their fault.
Tower's deals are hard to beat, but after flying the Venus for a year I've moved to a point where their products don't have much interest to me anymore.
I would say that if you're worried about a fragile airframe, go with the Venus. Let that tank take the abuse until you can smooth things out.
There is a pretty big difference in design between a Venus and professionally designed pattern plane. I just got a SebArt plane and while it's similar in size (and color) the quality and design is totally different. The Focus is more like a modern pattern plane, the Venus is a sport plane with little dihedral, tall fuse, and a long tail moment.
Shipping companies charge you for shipping large parcels. $50 is high in comparison to Tower, but low in comparison to what you or I would pay to ship it. Piedmont or Central sell much less volume than Tower so they don't get the shipping deals. Not their fault.
Tower's deals are hard to beat, but after flying the Venus for a year I've moved to a point where their products don't have much interest to me anymore.
12-17-2009 | 05:24 PM
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From: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Good thoughts...Thanks Joe..I think that when I am ready I will get a Focus Sport and use an OS 120AX in it. Does that sound like a good idea to you?
12-17-2009 | 05:28 PM
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From: suburb of chicago,
IL
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
In case you hadn't seen it, there is a thread called "focus sport build" by Troy Newman. He did a terrific job detailing the build process...
search the pattern forum and you'll find it.
search the pattern forum and you'll find it.
12-17-2009 | 05:36 PM
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
If it sounds good to you, then it sounds good to me
You can not go wrong with either plane. The Venus served me very well and I would have really liked to fly the Focus. There are some cool build threads on the Focus (Troy Newman?) which show you how to set the plane up like a full blown 2M ship.
You can not go wrong with either plane. The Venus served me very well and I would have really liked to fly the Focus. There are some cool build threads on the Focus (Troy Newman?) which show you how to set the plane up like a full blown 2M ship.
12-17-2009 | 05:45 PM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I'm really enjoying the Focus Sport with a YS 1.10, having lost my Venus II w/OS 1.20 FS-E (non-pumped) in a mid-air last June.
It's not really a fair comparison because the OS had lots less giddy-up than the YS, but overall I'd have to give the advantage to the Focus Sport because it flies more crisply and precisely. Rolls stop quickly, snap rolls don't "wallow" like they did with the Venus II, and the Focus Sport tracks much better in tight-radius pulling and pushing maneuvers such as shark's tooth and square loops. On those same kinds of maneuvers, the Venus II would kind of mush a bit before the stab would come around.
That said, the Venus II was MUCH easier to assemble because it had none of the quality-control problems the Focus Sport has. With the Focus Sport you had better know how to build, because there are lots of things - mostly small and annoying but some big problems, such as the crooked wing tube - that will require substantial building skills to correct. When reading through Troy Newman's build thread I wondered why he seemed to put such heroic effort into assembling an ARF, and having done it I now know why.
But if you hang in there and work your way through the issues, you will be rewarded with a very nice flying model.
It's not really a fair comparison because the OS had lots less giddy-up than the YS, but overall I'd have to give the advantage to the Focus Sport because it flies more crisply and precisely. Rolls stop quickly, snap rolls don't "wallow" like they did with the Venus II, and the Focus Sport tracks much better in tight-radius pulling and pushing maneuvers such as shark's tooth and square loops. On those same kinds of maneuvers, the Venus II would kind of mush a bit before the stab would come around.
That said, the Venus II was MUCH easier to assemble because it had none of the quality-control problems the Focus Sport has. With the Focus Sport you had better know how to build, because there are lots of things - mostly small and annoying but some big problems, such as the crooked wing tube - that will require substantial building skills to correct. When reading through Troy Newman's build thread I wondered why he seemed to put such heroic effort into assembling an ARF, and having done it I now know why.
But if you hang in there and work your way through the issues, you will be rewarded with a very nice flying model.
12-17-2009 | 05:57 PM
#16
My Feedback: (8)
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
ORIGINAL: cmoulder
I'm really enjoying the Focus Sport with a YS 1.10, having lost my Venus II w/OS 1.20 FS-E (non-pumped) in a mid-air last June.
It's not really a fair comparison because the OS had lots less giddy-up than the YS, but overall I'd have to give the advantage to the Focus Sport because it flies more crisply and precisely. Rolls stop quickly, snap rolls don't ''wallow'' like they did with the Venus II, and the Focus Sport tracks much better in tight-radius pulling and pushing maneuvers such as shark's tooth and square loops. On those same kinds of maneuvers, the Venus II would kind of mush a bit before the stab would come around.
That said, the Venus II was MUCH easier to assemble because it had none of the quality-control problems the Focus Sport has. With the Focus Sport you had better know how to build, because there are lots of things - mostly small and annoying but some big problems, such as the crooked wing tube - that will require substantial building skills to correct. When reading through Troy Newman's build thread I wondered why he seemed to put such heroic effort into assembling an ARF, and having done it I now know why.
But if you hang in there and work your way through the issues, you will be rewarded with a very nice flying model.
I'm really enjoying the Focus Sport with a YS 1.10, having lost my Venus II w/OS 1.20 FS-E (non-pumped) in a mid-air last June.
It's not really a fair comparison because the OS had lots less giddy-up than the YS, but overall I'd have to give the advantage to the Focus Sport because it flies more crisply and precisely. Rolls stop quickly, snap rolls don't ''wallow'' like they did with the Venus II, and the Focus Sport tracks much better in tight-radius pulling and pushing maneuvers such as shark's tooth and square loops. On those same kinds of maneuvers, the Venus II would kind of mush a bit before the stab would come around.
That said, the Venus II was MUCH easier to assemble because it had none of the quality-control problems the Focus Sport has. With the Focus Sport you had better know how to build, because there are lots of things - mostly small and annoying but some big problems, such as the crooked wing tube - that will require substantial building skills to correct. When reading through Troy Newman's build thread I wondered why he seemed to put such heroic effort into assembling an ARF, and having done it I now know why.
But if you hang in there and work your way through the issues, you will be rewarded with a very nice flying model.
12-17-2009 | 06:14 PM
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From: Ossining,
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
haha, sounds just like the kit building experience he was looking for! great to hear input from someone who flew (ie OWNED) both. focus looks more sporty in the air but that's a pretty objective statement, though you seem to be backing that thought.
] I think I've still got a dent in my forehead from banging the wall.Well, I must have gotten over it (or maybe I'm a glutton for punishment) because soon I will be assembling a Focus II with the Syssa 30cc gasser and ES pipe.
None of this is to say that the Venus II is by any means a crappy plane. Far from it; I had several hundred flights on it and learned many new skills such as slow rolls, clean stall turns, knife edge, and so forth... and it was very low maintenance, because of the robust design that you mentioned earlier.
12-17-2009 | 06:21 PM
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From: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I am used to building and I have pretty good results. I am sure I could correct the Focus Sport well, but I wouldn't be happy with the idea of paying for an ARF and getting a bad kit. I have read and saved Troy Newman's complete build thread. That is awesome and is the reason that I would consider the Focus Sport. I am very familiar with the linkage setup that he is talking about. I just set up my new SIG Somethin' Extra like that. You can see my new "Flight Streak" aka Sumpthin Extra on the kit forum under "another somethin' extra build. It really flies nice. I even tried to fly it with gloves on in our 14 degree temps today. I had to pull my right glove off though. God this weather is inhuman!!
12-17-2009 | 06:43 PM
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From: Ossining,
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Well, when you look at full-bore 2-meter planes that cost $2000-$4000 for the bare airframe, $299 for a Focus Sport (plus some elbow grease) isn't quite so painful.
12-17-2009 | 07:44 PM
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From: suburb of chicago,
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
That said, the Venus II was MUCH easier to assemble because it had none of the quality-control problems the Focus Sport has. With the Focus Sport you had better know how to build, because there are lots of things - mostly small and annoying but some big problems, such as the crooked wing tube - that will require substantial building skills to correct.
Crooked wing tube? Seriously????? Wow, now that sux! I wonder if you got a bad one or if this is a trend.
12-17-2009 | 08:01 PM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I don't know how many of them are like this, but if you search RCU/web I think you will find mine was not the only one.
I'll post a couple of pics - and my fix - later when I get back to my home computer.
Definitely not for the beginner, the faint of heart or the easily deterred.[&o]
I'll post a couple of pics - and my fix - later when I get back to my home computer.
Definitely not for the beginner, the faint of heart or the easily deterred.[&o]
12-17-2009 | 09:04 PM
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From: Bolivia, NC
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I got two of the Focus Sports. I've not found any quality issues to deal with. Everything fit just as it was supposed to and they really fly like a 2 meter plane. Just not as visible due to the size.
12-17-2009 | 11:24 PM
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
ORIGINAL: burtona
I got two of the Focus Sports. I've not found any quality issues to deal with. Everything fit just as it was supposed to and they really fly like a 2 meter plane. Just not as visible due to the size.
I got two of the Focus Sports. I've not found any quality issues to deal with. Everything fit just as it was supposed to and they really fly like a 2 meter plane. Just not as visible due to the size.
When I got home, there was a big box containing a Focus II, so I hold no grudge against Piedmont!
After this I will bow out because I have nothing else to contribute toward the topic at hand, but the pics show the wing tube thing, and the fix. Self-explanatory, I think.
12-18-2009 | 11:02 AM
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From: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Those pictures do tell the story. Production errors are common with ARFs. That is why I prefer to build my own from a kit. You and I would never let that happen in the first place. You can also pick through the wood supplied in a kit to make sure it is straight and the correct density for the intended purpose. A quick trip to the LHS and you can substitute at will.
12-19-2009 | 04:46 AM
#25
My Feedback: (15)
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
My first AMA pattern experience is coming up next month in Miami. I asked some pattern guy's for advice, what to buy, etc. The Focus Sport was my choice. I followed Troy Newman's build. I am not an engineer like he is. Little TMI, (too much info), but I learned from him.
Again, at the advice of some pattern guy's, I installed the YS110S, Hyde mount. First YS and first 4 stroke, another learning experience. This plane and engine are not necessarily the only good package available, it fit for me. If all goes well, I will duplicate this for a back up.
I build also, but the quality and price of this FS, I don't think it can be built at the $350.00 price, which includes shipping. The covering is excellent.
Wing adjuster's, new experience also. Ready to maiden it as soon as it quit's raining down here. Pant's get on after first flight's.
Vince
Hobe Sound, FL
Again, at the advice of some pattern guy's, I installed the YS110S, Hyde mount. First YS and first 4 stroke, another learning experience. This plane and engine are not necessarily the only good package available, it fit for me. If all goes well, I will duplicate this for a back up.
I build also, but the quality and price of this FS, I don't think it can be built at the $350.00 price, which includes shipping. The covering is excellent.
Wing adjuster's, new experience also. Ready to maiden it as soon as it quit's raining down here. Pant's get on after first flight's.
Vince
Hobe Sound, FL
