the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Although I have been concerned about telemetry for a while as pattern rules disallow it, I haven't had to serious of thoughts about it as I cant see how it could help a flyer during a contest without being obvious to others around hem that they are indeed using it. That said, I am in favor of telemetry considering Rx voltage monitoring. However with third party manufacturers making 3-axis stabilizers and now spektrum releasing the 635 6 channel rx with as3x, has the time come where cd's should be performing random or mandatory checks at contests to assure people aren't getting help with their flying??

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

I feel that at least the rules could provide for an ad hoc complaint system where another flyer can contest a winner's plane for inspection. And if any system found that could enhance the proformance of the flight, the pilot would be disqualified. This system was used in Formula One for years. The complaining pilot paid a fee, and the suspect engine would be dismantled and inspected.

In years past, roll buttons were on transmitters. And we didn't have any problem with pilots NOT using them. That's one thing about Pattern Pilots. The sense of fairness and sportsmanship. How many times have I seen a pilot lose a plane in a contest, and another competitor loan him a plane to finish the contest? More than I can remember. How many times have I seen other contestants do everything they could to help another flier finish the contest? Again, more than I can remember.

How many times have I seen constant winners give other pilots their secrets of construction and tips of flying?

That's what I like about Pattern...... it's a real sportsman sport.

Frank

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Telemetry in regard to distance, attitude, altitude and aptitude(any auto correcting) must continue to be disallowed in Pattern (for both the pilot and the judges).

I am in favor of telemetry in regard to passive monitoring that alerts the pilot of unsafe conditions such as airborne voltage, but only for the RX, not the model's power supply. Also in favor of passive monitoring of servo current draw

For me personally, if a guy were to cheat with auto correcting to a win, what has he won? On the other hand we shouldn't be blind to the fact that personal agendas exist. I know some who have been victimized by that. Unfortunately pattern isn't as pure as, say, Pro Golf.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

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Unless you're willing to disassemble a guy's airplane at a contest, you'll never know. You can try to detect gyros before or after the flight by picking it up and rolling or pitching the plane, but that is easily defeated by turning the gains to 0% with a gear switch so they're only active in the air.
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At least that's how I'd do it . . .
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RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Pilots are flying F3A FAI contests already with telemetry and monitoring of used mAh and voltage on both Rx battery and main battery. None of them will improve your flight but you will get added safety. If the alarm should go-off for low voltage on the Rx battery or you have used too many mAh you can abort the flight and land safely.

Who cares about servo current draw during a contest flight?

Regards,
Henning

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Seems if one can continuously monitor the power withdrawal of the main battery through warning beeps, one may be able to keep a level flight as constant speed as it can be.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

How exactly would you do that?

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

I already use feedback (visual and audio) for my power system...



If it's blowing smoke then the fire's still lit and the droning noise is fairly proportional to engine rpm ;)

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

The input power is voltage x current. So if these two variables can be transmitted and their product being monitored at the radio side, you have a feeling of the input power.


Now establish the right speed at the start of the level flight and notice the input power , say as audio beeps with a frequency.
Assume no wind change. You just need to keep the input power constant by managing the throttle and to maintain the beeps in that frequency.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: Henning

I do! As I said before....YMMV!!!!

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

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Why not just use the ESC's governor function? It works for helicopters.
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RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Anybody that cheats using telemetry or any-type of" flight stabilization" Are not true pattern flyers and will soon get bored because they" just don't get it" the reason we fly pattern and leave.. I've not seen anyone cheating in this way or suspected anyone .. I think it is really a none issue...


Gary

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

One of the club fields I fly at has a number of pilots who hold turbine wavers.  One of these pilots had a little MiG-15 sporting as3x that I saw him fly one day last summer.  Being a Futaba user, I was naturally curious about his impressions of the new technology.  He complained that it wouldn't really let him roll the little MiG on its axis and that he had to fight it to do aerobatics.  Apparently the device was truly about stability in the sense of a pilot new to RC.  While this programming might be upgraded in the future by the manufacturer, my impression of his as3x flight experience was that it is of little value to those of us who fly aerobatics on a regular basis.  Thoughts?

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Totally get it!! You are saying you are telemetric.....Congrats!!

Some of us have opted to nix the visual; audio still works great tho!!

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

The possibility of fitting a gyro is not new, people have experimented with helicopter gyros on the rudder. This is definitely against the rules, and the model processing before an event is the place to discover if such equipment is being used. The original question was, should we have checks to ensure nobody uses a gyro or stabilization system? I thought that was what model processing was for.

In the very near future however, I see that all kinds of devices will be packed into receivers. We already have loggers, voltage regulators, sensors, bus-systems and now gyros. Who knows what's next? It will likely mean that we have to go out of our way to find "classic" receivers. For helicopters, the FAI class F3C is the classic class with mechanical stabilization (flybar) and F3N is for flybarless systems. They have 3-axis gyros. These gyros can pretty much fly the chopper for you, with panic-buttons that instantly returns the heli to a stable hover, regardless of what you were up to. Will we see a future 3D-aerobatic class, where gyros are allowed?

I digress, here's what we have to conform to at the present time- the current F3A aerobatic rules, from the 2013 FAI Sporting code:

There's a reference to ABR, B.11.2, which is a separate document. It states:

At a glance, it seems contradictory, but it means that you can use a downlink from the aircraft for safety purposes. That to me includes current monitoring, but excludes GPS, such as speed and positioning data which would be a huge benefit (you'd get a vibration alert from the transmitter if you are more than 175 metres out, or pushing the sector limit, for instance).

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Gary and contributers of the World Championships, 2013, in South Africa

Look out for Old School, ! Ed Kazmirski was there more than 50 years ago but development of the Taurus wasn't stopped after that!
(see the yellow circles)

Cees

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

I agree 100%, I have the Mig and the Best 3D in both version, with and without as3X, the as3X helps in a lot of ways to make it more stable, but doing aerobatics is a different thing, is there is strong winds or no wind the aircraft reacts differently, and that is not good, you need your plane do what you tell him to do when you want it to, it is not like as3x on keep your plane form deviating from wind or your own mistakes.

I tried a gyro years ago in an Extra and did not liked it, it was a two axis, it felt really weird at the time.

No matter what people thing about telemetry, electronic aids etc, this is a 100% appreciative sport, if the judge does not like what he sees, you can tell him whatever story about gizmos but you get what you show, I think we are still far from being able to take advantage of the current systems for anyone to cheat.

There is no way to install gyros without wires right now and at the last WC in Muncie Dave Lockhart was checking every plane internals looking for them and moving the plane while we to move all the switches, etc.

Regards

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Sounds like a good idea. But for CC or Jeti and other ESCs, the governor function only works in heli mode, right?

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Keith,

I'm not into helis so I may be talking out of school.

I think the governor function for helis is one that maintains rotor rpm. As they increase or decrease collective, power consumption goes up or down accordingly while trying to maintain rpm.

Not too sure this works as well in a Pattern model.... Mayhaps! I don't fly big electric either so not certain....

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

My understanding is that in governor mode, the ESC will try to hold the head speed (the RPM) an instant, for a throttle position, even when the voltage of the pack drops.

The property is what we want in pattern. But not sure if the pattern works in general with an ESC in Heli mode.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Gents, for who is interested,
For a brief description of my Taurus, see my post of 2009 in the thread "post some pictures of your pattern plane!!"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8848961

Cees

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

CC's governor mode software is preprogrammedwith a slow spool up. if I remember correctly, at lower than about 80% the esc has a hard time holding constant speed usually resulting in a pulsing or wavering of motor speed.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

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I just started flying helos last summer - an impulse purchase - but have been enjoying the snot out of them so far. If you want to really learn your radio, then pick up a used 450 over on RunRyder or HeliFreak and learn to hover!!
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Anyway . . . here's how the governor (or Fixed RPM) mode works on the Castle ESC.
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Using the CC Link software, you select three RPM's that you want the ESC to hold for you. You also enter the gear ratio (we'd use 1:1) and number of poles and KV of your motor. The software will then calculate if you have enough "headroom" to maintain the selected RPM. "Headroom" is how much extra throttle - margin - the ESC has to maintain the selected RPM during times of increased load.
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Once the CC Link software has determined that the ESC is capable of meeting your demands, it will let you write those RPM's to the ESC. Your three RPM's will be in boxes labelled 30%, 70%, and 100%. You can also set the spoolup time and transition between RPM's. There is also a way to set a much faster spoolup speed from 0% throttle using the "Autorotation Bailout" function.
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Now your throttle is no longer a throttle, but an RPM selection channel. When the throttle channel is at either 0%, slightly above 0% (when using Auto-Bailout), 30%, 70%, or 100% the ESC will use whatever power it has available to maintain the pre-programmed RPM regardless of battery voltage or prop load - up to 100%, of course. In the second .jpg below, you'll notice that the black line - throttle input - and the red line - RPM (2100) - stay constant while battery voltage drops thru the flight. The blue and green lines - ESC power input (foot on the gas pedal) and amperage - are jumping up and down in response to collective inputs.
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There are also options for using an external governor. Hobbywing makes a sensor for $4 that you connect to two of the three motor wires and it feeds the motor RPM back to the governor. The governor then tells the ESC how much juice to put to the motor. The Futaba governor in the CGY-750 (a helicopter flybarless gyro) can read an RPM channel from your transmitter off of the S-bus feed. You could conceivably set as many RPM's for it to follow as you have conditions in your radio. And you'd also get the side benefit of a three axis gyro that is fully controllable (all three axes 0% - 100% gain) from your transmitter as well.
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Just make sure you change the name of the "TechInspection" condition to something less obvious.
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RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Keith,
Thanks for information.
It is a pity no configuration schema is given, with that a comparision could have been made with industrial variable speed drives forexample. Maybe interesting to start a thread about that in the helicopter forum?
For pattern flying the principle seems to be useless or even will have a lot of disadvantages.
Writing about the Taurus and its electronics there seems to be no interests. Reason will be this is mainly an electrical community (clique?), even there would be nearly no difference in controller configurations, algoritms and useable parameters etc.
Related to the subject of this thread? It could have been interesting to argue about, but not really needed of course even the system could be transfered to a modern ship without violating the rules.

Cees

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

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I have NO idea what you're rambling about . . .
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RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Reading the rules it doesn't look to me that a governor would be illegal...

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

I'd really enjoy watching someone use a heli governor at a contest.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

The governor function will never be usable, the aircraft has to maintain constant speed, that is not possible to achieve with a constant motor RPM, unless it is used for something not pattern related.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

And even then what would be required is constant ground speed, not constant air speed....

The more you think about it the ridiculouser it gets.:D

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Hi, the ability to set the a specific motor RPM with the throttle stick could be beneficial as it would enable the same motor speed to be reached for the same stick position regardless of the battery voltage and model attitude and airspeed. Hacker were playing with this (a complete new type of controller):

http://www.hacker-motor.com/en/news/54/index.html

but I don't know if anything came of it. The pilot would still need to adjust the throttle stick position to set the right motor RPM to obtain the desired air/ground speed. The pilot would still have to continuopusly adjust the throttle setting to achieve constant speed, but it may make achieving constant speed a bit easier, and would make different batteries essentially have the same throttle feel. In this case the feedback is from the motor RPM back to the speed controller, much the same way a servo works. There was some discussion of this on RCU previously.

Regards
Clint

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

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Its only illegal if you couple it with airspeed / GPS input from the plane.
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I don't think using the governor inside the Castle ESC would be useful either , you only get three (four if you count zero) selectable RPM's, which would be quite a handful to manage during a pattern sequence (but entertaining, yes!!).
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However, I believe that the usefulness comes in when you can use the governor to select RPMs from 0 to maximum with the throttle stick instead of power (stay with me here, there is a difference!!). You would have to do some data analysis of your flights and determine what RPM your batteries can give you at the end of the flight, then program the governor to limit the RPM to that at the beginning of the flight so you can achieve a consistent response thru the entire flight.
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I could even see a system where your governor would "learn" your power system over several flights and then set up its own RPM range based on a past history of voltage drops during the flight. Of course you would have to use batteries of similar age, manufacturer, C-rating, capacity for the learning to be valid. But eventually the governor could learn to limit the initial RPM to where the flights would end with enough "headroom" to keep the performance consistant thru the entire flight. Then from there you could program either a linear RPM or RPM curve that is commanded by the throttle stick.
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RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

If the throttle response changing with voltage drop is a real problem, then 2-3 throttle curves should negate most of it.

Playing Devil's advocate, it just seems that we are allowed to spend countless hours and dollars striving to achieve mechanical perfection, but as soon as an electronic aid is mentioned it's time to burn somebody at the stake. It keeps the airframe designers/manufacturers in business selling new designs that "present" better but what about the embedded system geeks that need money too??

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Electric is chock full o'nuts, huh! Don't have to worry 'bout that one with a gas "moter".

Whatever happened to "Just Fly" the danged plane. Where's RVP when you need him....

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

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Hmmmm, yes, the throttle curves would work also. You would need to remember to keep switching them thru the flight, or use a timer to switch them. Perhaps with the new voltage feedback telemetry you could have the radio select thottle curves based on battery voltage? Maybe a good excuse to buy an 18MZ?
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One could also argue that setting 2 degrees of right thrust is a feedback mechanism and should be outlawed as well. Same for contra-props, their torque constantly "cancels" out thru the planetary gearing feedback mechanism. What about wing incidence? It is in response to the effects of gravity.
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I demand Equal Rights for electronics!!!
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Where's Al Sharpton when you need him?
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RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

From a pure technical perspective it would be an interesting exercise to build a feedback system from a GPS to give true constant ground speed. Observing the results and trying to fly it on a windy day would be interesting.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

What is the groundspeed on verticals and 45's?:D

When one looks at today's sequences, very little time is spent flying horizontal lines.

A very wise and accomplished pilot once pointed out to me that the baseline speed for a sequence is dictated by the downline speed. If the model's drag (including prop braking, of course) cannot slow the downline speed enough to match the desired speed of the remainder of the sequence, then the remainder of the sequence must be flown faster to match the downline speed.

Which reminds me I need to fly sequences much more slowly lest the nickname "Rocket Man" become permanent.[:o]

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

I've been playing around with a GPS module in my planes. Pretty interesting to see just how close in 175 meters really is!!!

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Personally I see nothing wrong withpracticing with all kinds of goodies in the model...... should help you at least figure out the how, what and where of the model. That can directly translate at contest time.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Well, here is my take on this argument.

There is a condition for constant motor RPM to achieve the constant ground speed: the plane is in a level flight with almost constant wind heading and speed. While the latter is ideal, we sometime can encounter during a season, dependent on where we locate. Let us not forget this context.

More importantly, that the voltage of a main battery pack will drop during the course of a sequence is a unique problem to EP. For a range of throttle positions, the gradual reducing RPMs due to dropped voltage is an extra variable to manage. If ESC can take this management job away from the pilot, it is something.

RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern
 

Seems to me that if engine RPM changed with fuel level, the electric guys would be calling it an inferior system...