Sport_Pilot

Name just one! Stationary cranes are not earthmovers.

BTW a license dose not give you license to step on other frequencies.

Whyes

Read C-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y- . I said some FUNCTIONS are radio controlled. Do a little of your own homework . You still haven't learned the primary /secondary user thing either .

A grain of salt seems in order

Quote from sportpilot
"TW a license dose not give you license to step on other frequencies"

A LICENSE GIVES YOU PRIORITY OVER UNLICENSED OPERATORS IF YOU ARE OPERATING ON ASSIGNED FREQUENCIES WITH TECHNICALLY COMPLIANT EQUIPMENT AND ARE FULLFILLING THE OBLIGATIONS OF YOUR LICENSE ! If your little airplane is getting shot down ,when and IF you try to fly ,by some big industrial bully it is too bad for you. If you are interfering with an in plant RC operation you can be made to make whatever changes are needed to eliminate the interference YOU are causing with the LICENSED operator. Up to and INCLUDING ceasing use of any frequencies that cause interference.
They make the rules not you.

" TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 95--PERSONAL RADIO SERVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart C--Radio Control (R/C) Radio Service

Sec. 95.220 (R/C Rules 20) What must I do if the FCC tells me that my R/C station is causing interference?

(a) If the FCC tells you that your R/C station is causing
interference for technical reasons, you must follow all instructions in
the official FCC notice. (This notice may require you to have technical
adjustments made to your equipment.)
(b) You must comply with any restricted hours of R/C station
operation which may be included in the official FCC notice.



[48 FR 24894, June 3, 1983, as amended at 63 FR 36610, July 7, 1998]

If you read the regs in their entirety you will find references regarding "acceptance of interference by SECONDARY users as well . You can even read it in some Radio Shack walkie talkie instructions . It is a universal premise of basic FCC operation.

(b) You must share the channels with other R/C stations. You must
cooperate in the selection and use of the channels. You must share the
Channel 27.255 MHz with stations in other radio services. There is no
protection from interference on any of these channels.
(c) Your R/C station may not transmit simultaneously on more than
one channel in the 72-76 MHz band when your operation would cause
harmful interference to the operation of other

R/C stations.
(d) Your R/C station must stop transmitting if it interferes with:
(1) Authorized radio operations in the 72-76 MHz band; or
(2) Television reception on TV Channels 4 or 5.
(e) [Reserved]
(f) Stations in the 26-27 MHz range are not afforded any protection
from interference caused by the operation of industrial, scientific of
medical devices. Such stations also operate on a

[[Page 525]]

shared basis with other stations in the Personal Radio Services.
(g) Stations in the 72-76 MHz range are subject to the condition
that inteference will not be caused to the remote control of industrial
equipment operating on the same or adjacent frequencies or to the
reception of television transmissions on Channels 4 and 5. These
frequencies are not afforded any protection from interference due to the
operation of fixed and mobile stations in other services assigned to the
same or adjacent frequencies.

You want proof ,YOU FIND it .
I have no obligation to do your homework for you.

Sport_Pilot

Nothing there about primary or secondary. Nothing there that says a licensed user is allowed to interfere with our frequencies. Nothing new that there is no insurance from interference. That doesn't say that an adjacent channel is allowed to interfer with our channels.

So you couldn't find any radio controlled bulldozers huh? Thought not.

David Cutler

Maybe not bulldozers, but I know of a few hopper feeders in stone quarries that use radio control to open the hopper to load trucks. Interfering with that could be pretty uncomfortable!

-David C.

Whyes

"Read C-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y- . I said some FUNCTIONS are radio controlled. Do a little of your own homework . "
" Bull "dozer That could be interpreted as a sleeping sportpilot


These
frequencies are not afforded any protection from interference due to the
operation of fixed and mobile stations in other services assigned to the
same or adjacent frequencies.

the reference is to THE RC frequencies in question .

I am not going to hold your hand and do this for you . Instead of parsing words ,and never responding to your own disinformation ,do some homework and look it up.
Yourself . again...If you read the regs in their entirety you will find references regarding "acceptance of interference by SECONDARY users as well . You can even read it in some Radio Shack walkie talkie instructions .

" (c) Category of services. (1) Any segment of the radio spectrum may
be allocated to the Federal government and/or non-Federal government
sectors either on an exclusive or shared basis for use by one or more
radio services. In the case where an allocation has been made to more
than one service, such services are listed in the following order:
(i) Services, the names of which are printed in ``capitals''
[example: FIXED]; these are called ``primary'' services;
(ii) Services, the names of which are printed in ``normal
characters'' [example: Mobile]; these are called ``secondary'' services.
(2) Stations of a secondary service:
(i) Shall not cause harmful interference to stations of primary
services to which frequencies are already assigned or to which
frequencies may be assigned at a later date;
(ii) Cannot claim protection from harmful interference from stations
of a primary service to which frequencies are already assigned or may be
assigned at a later date; and
(iii) Can claim protection, however, from harmful interference from
stations of the same or other secondary service(s) to which frequencies
may be assigned at a later date."
Just a hint or two FCC regs part 15 and part 95. I have the book ,you need to buy one before you challenge others regarding content.

Like the lady said you try hard not to understand .

Sport_Pilot

David
Hopper feeders are not earth movers. Radio control is often used to open and close gates on an airfield from the control tower when hardlines are down or not easily installed. Not good to interfere with that. But I don't see that they are on our frequencies and not allowed to interfere with ours. And I don't see that it is any better for them to interfere with an R/C frequency of a 200 MPH jet or 55 lb. giant scale.

Whyes,
Not sure you are arguing the same thing I am. That seems to be referring to users of the same frequency. All I know is that licensed users are not allowed to interfere with other frequencies any more than unlicensed users. That protection statement may occure elsewere in the regs. I have not the time to look if it is in the industrial frequencies. It does not mean that those adjacent frequencies are allowed to use our frequencies even if by mistake.

David Cutler

True, but the issue was whether or not the changing of a crystal that ended up with bleed over from one of our channels to the other users of the bands can cause problems. Opening a hopper at the wrong time could get uncomfortable!

-David C.

Sport_Pilot

As can an R/C plane hitting you on the head. I thought the issue was that industrial users are free to stomp on our frequencies, but we are not allowed to interfere with theirs. Swaping crystals is not likely to cause interferance. When your radio tech changes them they check the frequency, they almost never have to tune them. Also most of our flying sites are remote and not likely to be near industral users, with our low powered transmitters interferance from bleed over is not likely. But I would take extra precaution if near an industral site. Our club has a frequency monitor, but these are not very good at determing if a transmitter is off frequency, unless off very badly.

David Cutler

In that case the law is an ass. it still, however, is the law (at least in the States).

I'm not sure losing our frequency band for a bad reason is any better than losing it for a good one.


-David C.

Sport_Pilot

Not to worry. There really hasn't been a problem with interferance from our radios. With our radios you would have to be withen a couple thousand feet of the industrial reciever, and then you have to be almost spot on their frequency. I don't think I have seen a transmitter bleed over more than 20 Db at about 20 feet, and that radio was just signed off by a promenant R/C radio repair station. Where I work we have not had a problem with the radio controlled gates, but I don't think they are anywhere near our frequencies.

Whyes

Qoute from sportpilot:
"" Whyes,
Not sure you are arguing the same thing I am. That seems to be referring to users of the same frequency. All I know is that licensed users are not allowed to interfere with other frequencies any more than unlicensed users.


Can you read or is some kid reading for you?

It CLEARLY states that PRIMARY users have protection from interference ,secondary users do NOT . That is exactly what I said . What you "KNOW " is not the WAY IT IS . You do not in fact KNOW at all.



same or adjacent frequencies

"Yeah , The old sport pilot twist again.


Some of us TRY our da**dest to pass on good info and you merely come in to muddy the water by picking everything apart till the people seeking information are completely confused.
You aren't doing anyone favors .
You were WRONG AGAIN, the
sportpilot escape won't change that . If you can't pass on accurate information please refrain from muddying the water with your continuously erroneous assumptions.

Thanks for NOT admiting it and assuming your same old escape route.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://people.msoe.edu/~barnicks/cou...j-proposal.pdf

http://www.omnitech.com/pdf/srs_ds.pdf

http://advertisers.americancityandco...quipment_gets/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I said, more than once and even asked you to read C_A_R_E_F_U_L_L_Y , some FUNCTIONS of earthmoving rely on RADIO CONTROL . GPS is satelite based but relys on communication with earthbound components with lasers and RF links at various frequencies . I doubt they would use our hobby freqs but adjacent freqs are at their disposal and they have every right to seek a license to grant them protection from interference and negate any claim of interference from unlicensed HOBBY SECONDARY users .
Earthmovers even use tire pressure monitors that are radio linked . (monitoring tire pressure is an important FUNCTION on earthmoving equipment in hazardous work environments)
JUST ONE of the FUNCTIONS that rely on an RF link.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miniature Earthmover

In 1995, International Machinery Corporation (IMC), Mt. Juliet, Tennessee completed the research and development phase of its first product-a miniaturized, remotely-controlled earthmover-and embarked on preparations to begin producing the machine late in 1996. The product is a 1/8 scale fully functional replica of the world's largest earthmover, the 220,000-pound Caterpillar® D11N Track-type Tractor. Caterpillar Inc., Peoria, Illinois granted IMC trademark product approval and a worldwide license to manufacture and market 1/8 scale replicas of Caterpillar products.

The Cat® D11N weighs only 340 pounds, has miniature hydraulic and transmission systems, and is powered by an IMC-designed seven horsepower, V4 four-stroke cycle engine which, says IMC, is the world's first miniature industrial internal combustion engine. The 45-pound engine, which will power all IMC products, is smaller, quieter and has less vibration than single cylinder engines of comparable power output.

IMC contemplates marketing the miniature earthmover to users of heavy equipment, particularly Cat equipment, such as fleet owners/contractors and operators of equipment for mining, construction and demolition work. The company sees broad potential for sales of the engine to Original Equipment Manufacturers for such applications as boat propulsion, light landscaping machinery, snow grooming vehicles, powered scale model vehicles, go carts and transportation for the handicapped.

A market area of particular interest to IMC is the special equipment category wherein the vehicle's small size, miniaturized water-cooled engine and remote control capability permit its use in confined spaces and in environments considered hazardous to humans. Prospective customers in this category include the military services and other federal agencies, law enforcement organizations, and waste management firms.

The initial products are operated by radio remote control. However, the company envisions large-scale export sales of the 1/8 scale Cat D11N and subsequent products; because of varying restrictions on radio frequency use among foreign countries, IMC is developing infrared remote control capabilities with technical assistance from NASA under multiple Technology Transfer Agreements; Marshall Space Flight Center is the cognizant NASA organization.

IMC plans to build upon the 1/8 scale Cat D11N experience by introducing other innovative systems, both Cat machine replicas and non-Cat products. Cat-licensed replicas planned for early introduction include the 994 Front-Wheel Loader and the 793 Off-Road Mining Truck. Additionally, IMC has preliminary designs for eight non-Cat products for military use in weapon systems, surveillance systems and explosive ordnance disposal.

®Caterpillar and Cat are registered trademarks of Caterpillar Inc.

Sport_Pilot

It is you who twists words by claiming those regs allow the primary users to use our frequencies.

I said I don't know anything about primary and secondary users. So far you have not shown to me that primary users are allowed to use our frequencies. I know for a fact that a loca TV station was fined for transmitting into adacent frequencies so that must not be the case. I don't know what they mean by protection but it still doesn't mean they can transmit on our adjacent frequencies, also it doesn't say if R/C is primary or secondary, though I take your word for it. I said that there are presently no earth moving equipment near our frequencies, to my knowledge they are not using any functions either, why should they when an operator is right there inside the machine. Now you show us a future product, and probably nowhere near our frequency.

As we both agree the frequencies adjacent to ours are in less and less demand. I still say the AMA should monitor this and make a move to claim these frequencies in the future.

Sport_Pilot

Doing some searchs the closest I can find to an earth moving function is a radio controlled drag line to move logs, and radio controlled locomotives.

Searching the FCC regs is slow. I cannot find any frequencies for commercial radion control except for government and emergency use and they are not adjacent to our band. I am sure they are there or fequencies with multiple uses perhaps.

Scanning some info on commercial broadcast, I gather that if they are interfering with adjacent frequencies they must fix right away, they do not necessarily have to shut down, however we are required to stop transmission right away. The commercial users may be subject to enforcement if they do not fix. This is not the same thing as allowed to transmit on our frequency.

David Cutler

All this is fascinating, but doesn't effect the fact that it's illegal in the States to change the channel by replacing the crystal in a transmitter without sending it back to be tuned properly.

It may be for entirely the wrong, or even false reasons, in which case the law could be challenged more easily, but until the law is changed we must abide by it or face the consequences laid out in that law.


-David C.

Whyes

75 Mhz IS adjacent to our band,that band is available for LICENSED Primary use . Whether you are "aware" or not is a moot point.The band is available for these FUNCTIONS. The post above lists many FUNCTIONS controlled by radio (earthmoving) . You can read it and come away saying you didn't see it ?

I also said they aren't likely to use RC aircraft freqs. That doesn't at all mean they WON"T.
The 220 MHz ham band was at one time for exclusive amateur radio use. The FCC decided to issue land mobile carrier LICENSES to UPS trucks. A ham could be in the middle of a conversation and a UPS op would come on freq. The ham had to CEASE operation when he was "stepped on" as you call it. THe ham could not seek protection but was subject to prosecution himself if he failed to cease interference. Even with a license the ham was a SECONDARY user UPS is a PRIMARY user.
Problems such as this caused the loss of a large part of the 220 Mhz amateur band .
Our use of the 72 Mhz band is not carved in stone . The rules above are general FCC rules pertaining to ALL radio services. Hobby ,toy airplanes do not hold sufficient importance to get a whole unique set of rules OR priority over operations the FCC sees fit to authorize .
There ARE AVAILABLE FREQUENCIES BETWEEN THE ONES WE USE.THE FCC WANTS TO MINIMIZE THE POTENTIAL FOR INTERFERENCE > THEY HAVE RULES . THEY UNDERSTAND THE RULES . YOUR FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND THE RULES DOES NOT GRANT YOU ANEXEMPTION FROM THE RULES . REGARDLESS OF ANY FLAWED LOGICAL REASONS YOU MAY DELUDE YOURSELF WITH > ... If you get yourself into trouble it's bad enough . If others for some reason believe you that is a real pity.

I have never said we are in imminent danger from RC bullddozers . I HAVE said some functions of earthmoving equipment are radio controlled , They are , You insisted otherwise repeatedly . You were wrong ,,,repeatedly, NOT JUST MILITARY APPLICATIONS BUT ADDTIONALLY MINING AND BOMB REMOVAL EQUIPMENT . To some it is no surprise ,to you it is UNBELIEVEABLE
You can't change the facts ,just accept you don't get it . I'm sure you have not read one half of what has been presented .

This company hasn't heard there is no such market ;

HLS HARD-LINE Solutions Inc.
"HLS HARD-LINE Solutions Inc. supplies customers world wide with the safest, most reliable, and cost effective industrial control systems. Turn-key radio remote control, wired control, teleoperated, video, and digital communication systems are available for mining, rail, aggregate, agricultural, forestry, military, and construction applications."
53 Main St., Box 908, P0M 1R0
Dowling, Ontario P0M 1R0, CANADA
Phone: (705) 855-1310
Fax: (705) 855-9463
Contact: Walter Siggelkow
E-mail: [email protected]


From State of California regulations on Industrial trucks,Tractors,Haulage Vehicles........;

"Subchapter 7. General Industry Safety Orders
Group 4. General Mobile Equipment and Auxiliaries
Article 25. Industrial Trucks, Tractors, Haulage Vehicles, and Earthmoving Equipment .......


Article 25 ,section n;
n) Radio remote control vehicles shall be equipped with positive means which restrict the speed of the vehicle to 3.5 mph while the equipment is being operated with radio remote control. "

They always write laws for non existent applications don't they ?

I do admit I was wrong on this one major point:
You aren't trying not to understand ,you're a natural .

Sport_Pilot

I cannot read your links, they crashed the browser.

Your example above is exactly how I understand primary and secondary, dual use on the same frequency.

75 Mhz is not adjacent to our band. 72 is. You will not find any radio controlled earthmoving product. Just because it is mentioned as an allowed use does not mean any widespread use.

I don't know why you keep trying to make the case that a bull dozer is going to run over sombody when no one has a good use for a radio controlled bull dozer. Not likely to happen, not even close to our frequencies.

What is close to our frequencies is analog voice pagers. They hardly sell them anymore. Even without interferance they are hardly usable.

Sport_Pilot

OK now I have read your links. So you found out that the Army's combat engineers have radio controled equipment. And that there are some efforts to bring this technology to the civilian world.

So what? They are not even close to our frequencies. The government has frequencies alloted for government owned equipment. Waaay waaay above our frequencies.

Fact is you and others are making mountains out of molehills on this subject.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Do you break other laws you do not agree with?

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

There is no such law -- thats a crock.

The law everyone always quotes applies to manufacturers...and before the "quoters" take it out of context...you can see the entire section is dedicated to and written explicitly for radio maufacturers. Now, if you manufacturing radios, then yes, there is a law that states that you cannot make a tx where the crystal can be modified by the end user. You here that Futuba.....

However, there is a law that states that your tx must be within a certain tolerance and that is posted at every field I have ever been to. If you change your crystal, you radio may be out of tolerance. So you may be breaking the law.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Code of Federal Regulations, Title 47, Part 95.222

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

(a) You must not make or have anyone else make an internal modification to your R/C transmitter.

Doesn't apply in most cases. Changing a crystal on a Futuba radio, for instance, is not an internal modification and can be freely accessed without any internal modifications whatsoever. It doesn't require removing a cover...in fact, doesn't even involve removing a screw. It is, in fact, obvious to any "reasonable" person that the manufacturer has placed this in a conveniently accessible location in the very front of the transmitter. And that location was knowingly approved by the FCC.

I'm not condoning this. I think its a bad idea if you don't know what your doing. However, check out the legal definition of "reasonable" and you will see that you couldn't make such a prosecutation stick if you had to and your life depended on it.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

So the FCC, AMA and all of the radio manufacturers are wrong?

Glad I checked in here to get the straight "dope" [sm=confused.gif]

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

As I recall...someone said "illegal"...so we are talking about the LAW.

And, in the law, there is no such thing as right or wrong...only an interpretation. Your interpretation is weak and leaves a lot to be desired by a "reasonable" person. If it was clear cut, this question wouldn't come up again, and again and again by the many reasonable new people that enter the hobby each day. It is obvious that when someone buys a new radio and the crystal is freely accessible on the front to change, and the crystals are sold on the open market, that it is reasonable for them to assume they can change it.

If the law is as you have interpreted it, someone in the FCC should be hung by their toenails until dead because they have severly screwed up by allowing Futuba radios to be certified in the first place. They should have forced Futuba to make the crystals completly inaccessible from the exterior.

Is there any case law where someone has been prosecuted under this citation and went to jail for changing the crystal?

What the AMA does is a different story....they are going to look for any loopholes they can to prevent paying out just as any other good insurance company does.

ZAGNUT

My Feedback: (1)

here's a little something to chew on...

i just bought an FMA rf deck for my microstar2000 and here's a nice little quote from the manual:

"IMPORTANT NOTE: If you purchase the RFD1FM on 72 MHz, your RF deck has an identifier on it designating it as an A or B P/N. The "A" P/N is designated for72 MHz channels 11 through 33. The "B" P/N is designated for 72 MHz channels 34 through 60. They are not interchangeable. Please verify that the correct crystal was shipped with the RF module."

the rf deck and crystal came to me in seperate sealed baggies and all the adjustable coils are doped...what this means to me is that i can use any crystal between 11 and 33 in my "A" deck and they will all work within the allowable tolerances....right??

i think the law (or rumor) saying you can't swap crystals came about in order to keep idiots from doing things like sticking a futaba crystal in a jr radio


dave

Whyes

You are indeed right, mr_Matt. Technically and ACTUALLY the CRYSTAL is a frequency determining component ,it IS INSIDE the transmitter and all home brew interpretations aside it is NOT a user changeable part. The trap door to the INSIDE of many transmitters is a concession to allow world market radios access to the US market. Any reasonable person knows where the INSIDE of a radio is . You open a door step inside you are IN the house .

I don't know if they package FMA in the US as they do in Israel but....
Zagnutt ,what you said is very close to what I have been trying to get across .
YES the PROBLEM is the chance that someone will (they HAVE) put a receiver crystal or any improper crystal in the transmitter and wind up causing interference to another service. TUNING is aand always has been a very minor issue .
Unfortunately we get sidetracked by the "tuning" thing . The unfamiliar somehow assume tuning is the only issue . Not true .
When we were first issued the new channels there was a lot more demand from industrial users and PAGERS for bandwidth within the 72-76 Mhz band . That demand has diminished recently but there are still many DIVERSE users right in the RC band --10 Khz spacing ,right between our channels . VERY ADJACENT TO our channels and WITHIN the same band.

The fact is the enforcement of this rule is nearly non exisitent . The practice is as improper as speeding ,among other laws people choose to disobey . Of course disobeyance does leave the law breaker exposed . Better to have clean hands in any event.

Another questionable quote;
"75 Mhz is not adjacent to our band. 72 is. You will not find any radio controlled earthmoving product. Just because it is mentioned as an allowed use does not mean any widespread use

The FCC ruling:
R/C stations.
(d) Your R/C station must stop transmitting if it interferes with:
(1) Authorized radio operations in the 72-76 MHz band;

Before the rule is painfully mis-parsed , let's point out the DASH between 72 and 76 Mhz indicating (from)-(to) rather than the "and that a comma would indicate. The 72-75 is inclusive . a comma would be additive and would still indicate the frequencies are indeed adjacent in any event.
The CHANNELS at 10 Khz spacing ARE adjacent the freqs are in the same bandplan range .
Also note these rules apply to US the model plane flyers ,it makes no distinction as the WHAT channel the AUTHORIZED (licensed) may be . If WE interfere WE stop ,the FCC will not take our side if we are getting interference FROM A PROPERLY OPERATING licensed user on ANY frequency. Properly operating is important if the licensed operator is meeting technical requirements and is operating WHERE they are authorized we are out of luck 99.999999% of the time .
I have been into this OFTEN with the FCC over the last 30 years . I know how they deal with interference issues .


"making mountains out of molehills ? That is the work of earthmoving equipment . Which may or may not have FUNCTIONS under radio control . The Radio may LEGALY be on a FREQUENCY in or ADJACENT to our hobby frequencies . A local law enforcement agency is using FUTABA gear to operate their bomb disposal robot . I haven't researched the frequency , no telling what it is but it IS radio controlled and the frequency is best kept out of public hands for obvious reasons.
In Montana I saw huge EARTHMOVERS working on roads . One of the FUNCTIONS was a tire inflation monitoring system . It was using the 72-76 Mhz band . On one of the COMMERCIAL frequencies that lie BETWEEN RC channels ---10 Khz away ! THAT IS VERY ADJACENT !
The operator swore by the system since losing a tire on the side of a mountain can be perilous indeed . The onboard monitor was backed up to a remote monitor by radio control. This was a few years ago . They MAY not be using the same equpment .
Just one of the FUNCTIONS of RC in ADDITION to the others already presented forEARTHMOVING and mining equipment in previous posts .