3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

Whyes...with all due respect...the only issue is tuning. The only way you are going to interfere with an adjacent frequency or channel is due to "band-broadening".

They just don't sell Pager crystals (or Earth moving crystals, or police band crystals which I believe you are referring to) that you can easily buy at Tower Hobbies and then go and stick in your Futuba RC Tx to try and fly your plane.

...You really think there are people who would do this? Pick up a police catalog for a crystal to fly their R/C plane with. Well, maybe I'm giving the general public too much credit. You can never assume anything....but this seems extremelly far fetched to me.

Whyes

I understand why you think that way , The fact is an improper crystal .say a recever crystal could put a transmitter on frequency at nearly full power, that could cause harmful interference . That is and has been a MAIN consideration of the FCC. I know one of the individuals who was on the frequency planning committee when the rules were drafted. he has expressed that as a major concern of the FCC that was addressed by the AMA when they worked out the current bandplan.
Some folks in an effort to get their own "private ' frequency may in fact use an unauthorized crystal . This could occur without their having knowledge of any potential for harmful interference.
An off tune 3/4 watt transmitter is not as likely to cause interference to shared users .
We have had a few postings in these threads from people who have used RX crystals in their transmitters . They may also use crystals from another manufacturer that are on the wrong fundamental freq ,causing radiation at an improper freq at close to full power.

CBers were using odd cystals to get "private " channels . The FCC took note and moved to minimize those efforts in new rules. Receiver RC crystals will result in output on freqs outside our permitted freqs . They are readily available as are the in between crystals . They are standard pin spacing and available on any freq you desire . Yes the chances are remote but real . Speeders often consider themselves to be better drivers . The cop who writeds the ticket doesn't care. You may think some speed limits are silly but they are still the rules of the road. Take it as you will
BTW speed limit 35 ahead does not mean you count the people in the car and multiply the heads x 35 to get you limit ![8D]

Synthesized module type RF decks are virtually the same in the tuned stages as the crystal counterparts. The tuning is not the problem . The Synth units are not prorammable to operate on freqs other than the RC channels they are not retuned with each change .They are type accepted for RC unlicensed use regardless . The fact that they cannot readily operate on the shared frequencis satisfies the major FCC concern ,not any special tuning properties .
Tuning is and has been seconadry in concern to the FCC. The AMA as an underwriter of RC use on the other hand IS concerned with the radio link to the model . Two enities ,two priorities .\

Like I said enforcement is nil ,the practice is common but it is not a good nor legal practice.

Thanks for asking . I hope that is clear enough.

apteryx

I wouldn't think that a radio controlled bomb robot would be a good idea (what happens if the bomb is also radio controlled) and would prefer that it drug a control cable along.

Always thought the problem with crystal frequency changes was "tuning up" the transmitter/receiver. Not tuning to a different
frequency because that's cotrolled by the crystal, but tuning for optimum performance. The problem being that YOUR communications to YOUR plane suffers if the transmitter/receiver isn't optimized. You can change frequency in a small range
without any effect but to go from one end of the band to the other is asking for trouble in the form of a lower power and a more
distorted signal to your receiver. I know of one guy who tried making a 72Mhz Tx out of a 75Mhz by changing the crystal only.
There are some resonant circuits which require "peaking", "tuning up", whatever you want to call it. That's why they want you to
send the units in for crystal changes and while you "can" the FCC says you "may" not.

Excuse me, I've got to go rebuild some transmitters (just kidding FCC).

Frogman1195

My Feedback: (2)

Ok I understand that the Radio Manufacturers are selling XTALs with the intent on making us break the law. But isn't that a little like busting the marijuana user and letting the pusher go free?

Can anyone tell me where Futaba can have the 9C radios with removal modules? This would appear to me that they could not have possibly tested the radio with the correct crystal. Am I missing something here? Don't you have to by the transmitter module seperately?

Dave

bearmech

My Feedback: (1)

The module has all of the RF circuit installed in it, so your not modifing the RF circuit like you would if you just changed the ctystal.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

The code of federal regulations specificall allow for modules. I think it is in part 95.222 or .209

Imagine the outcry if Futaba DID NOT sell the crystals. Does not matter if they sell them or not, it is illegal to change them, and it is a law that is not enforced so people break it, I think they should just admit they break the law.

Sport_Pilot

Funny that they sell the ones that just pop into the front. But only radio repair shops can buy the crystals that are soldered into the circuit board.

BTW changing a crystal is not a modification, doesn't matter if its on the front or not. To modify you have to change the circuit, such as adding an additional channel, something people also do, it is illegal, yet there seems to be no one complaining about the sky falling.

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

The law is you cannot open up the box and internally change anything....thats the law Mr. Matt. If the law is poorly written and you interpret is as something different that does not mean everyone is breaking the law because your interpretation trumpts how a "reasonable" person would understand the law to be. Or even more some, how a jury off the street who will know absolutely nothing about electronics will interpret the law.

Changing the plug-in crystal on the front of the Tx--- no more changes the circuit than does the flipping a switch or tuning a knob (which change resistance and gates in a circuit) on the front cover to an ordinary reasonable person. If you have to open up your TX, and unsolder a crystal and resolder in a new one....thats a whole horse of a different color. That certainly seems to be illegal.

Sorry, but if the FCC forbids the crystals from being changed by law, than it is illegal for Futuba or Tower Hobbies to sell them. That would make them a party to the crime. The law is "blind" to "outcry"....outcry is something politicians deal with.

Whyes

"Modification" of the circuit is only part of the rule. The FCC NOR the AMA will let you hang your hat on that or the trap door thing . It has been mentioned here before . Nice try but it will not hold water . For "TYPE APPROVAL " the frequency is not intended to be user changeable' Except in certain models such as synthesized radios and certain Multiplex radios have managed to satisfy the FCC requirements.


User changeable crystals could very well be around the corner

The FCC has become far less stringent as industrial users move away from the 72-76 Mhz freqs. It would be up to the individual manufacturers to submit designs that would merely satisfy the FCC concerns regarding off frequency operation. This could easily be accomplished by using crystals with a unique package (size ,shape ,pin spacing etc) that would make it less likely an improper crystal would be installed.
The liability would be another issue that the legal types would hash out.


In the meantime the trap door Japanese made transmitters are NOT type approved for user changeable crystals in the 72 -76 Mhz band. Even though you feel going behind a trap door does not get you "inside " (it does).
Changing of a frequency determining component or changing the value of ANY component in the RF sectionI S a modification.


Type approved synthesized modules are allowed in CERTAIN TRANSMITTERS. Using a Hitec module in a Futaba or any other tx IS NOT allowed even in other non approved Futabas. . The modules are certified with each type of transmitter that the maker intends them to be used. Even though you are not 'modifying " the RF deck ,by installing it in another transmitter you lose the TYPE APPROVAL certificate and you are operating an ILLEGAL radiating device (transmitter) .



Of course HAM operators are exempt from the type approval system . They have demonstrated the (hopefully) ability to make technical changes and adjustments to their own equipment . They are allowed to build their own gear from scratch or MODIFY gear. The resulting emission must meet all applical technical standards . How they do it is up to them . By demonstrating their abilities and ATESTING to their knowledge of the REGULATIONS they unable to claim IGNORANCE as a defense. That is what licenses are about.



Things MAY change . for now it is illegal .


Illegal to SELL and ILLEGAL to use is also a total non issue .That "interpretation has no basis in fact whatsover. The crystals are available to anyone and there is no law regarding sales.
Just as ANYONE with the money can buy a HAM radio ,no license needed for purchase. To OPERATE the transmitter you MUST have a license. A non ham may talk on the ham radio BUT the ham is the only one who can control emissions.


Anyone go go to a military surplus store and buy transmitters on MILITARY and or POLICEand other public service frequencies. You can buy an AIRCRAFT ( FULL SIZE) tranceiver without a pilots license . It happens every day. You must however have a proper license to OPERATE the transmitter.

In Michigan anyone over 18 may buy a motorcycle . They must however posses a motorcycle endorsement on their operator's license to LEGALLY ride it on public roads .

Of course ANYONE can operate any transmitter , change crystals whenever they want ,ride a motorcycle . To be LEGAL they must have a proper license.

Another "quote"
"Funny that they sell the ones that just pop into the front. But only radio repair shops can buy the crystals that are soldered into the circuit board.

BTW changing a crystal is not a modification, doesn't matter if its on the front or not. To modify you have to change the circuit, such as adding an additional channel, something people also do, it is illegal,"

WRONG on Both points ;
1 ANYONE may buy crystals that plug OR solder in .

2 Changing the VALUE of any component is a "modification" by definiton . A crystal set to oscillate on a different frequency has i different value .

3 Adding another "channel" (function) involves the ENCODER section , that section is NOT off limits to users nor is the battery ,pots etc. THE RF DECK and any FREQUENCY DETERMINING components are off limits . You MAY make certain modifications ,change switches etc. LEGALLY . Yes even you can try that.


By now those who are going to understand do .Those who choose not to should hope they never need to back up their private interpretations in a legal matter . Of course the courts will be all wrong too [8D]

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

I don't think it is...however, its a simple matter of tested case law to determine so.

There all kinds of cases of the FCC hanging people for doing other illegal things...they are actually a fairly stringent enforcement agency.

Simple give me the answer to the following question.

Give me an example where someone has been prosecuted successfully under that statue for changing their Tx crystal in their radio please...give me the jurisprudence legal citation please so I can go and look it up.

Surely anybody who is supposedly knowledgeable in this area has at least one successful case situation...where the courts have interpreted the law and determined this is illegal. Judges interpret the law and they are the only people that determine if something is illegal here in the US.

Whyes

"Give me an example "


You have already been proven wrong in erroneous assumption upon erroneous assumption .
You have failed to offer any substance to any ONE of your statements now you want ANOTHER GIMME?


You have been given more time than you deserve .

If you want to witness what you call "strict FCC enforcement " Listen in on the ham bands and the CB bands . Listen to the FM broadcast band near any college in California . Illegality abounds

FIRST you need to get a bit more intimate with the REGULATIONS AND TERMINOLOGY[8D]

Sport_Pilot

When was he proven wrong? Who determined that? You? The man has a point. No matter what you or the FCC thinks the law says, it isn't proven till a judge or jury makes a decision.

Whyes

Oh MR WRONG chimes in !![X(]


Another sportpilot "quote"
"Funny that they sell the ones that just pop into the front. But only radio repair shops can buy the crystals that are soldered into the circuit board.

BTW changing a crystal is not a modification, doesn't matter if its on the front or not. To modify you have to change the circuit, such as adding an additional channel, something people also do, it is illegal,"

WRONG on Both points ;
1 ANYONE may buy crystals that plug OR solder in .

2 Changing the VALUE of any component is a "modification" by definiton . A crystal set to oscillate on a different frequency has i different value .

3 Adding another "channel" (function) involves the ENCODER section , that section is NOT off limits to users nor is the battery ,pots etc. THE RF DECK and any FREQUENCY DETERMINING components are off limits . You MAY make certain modifications ,change switches etc. LEGALLY . Yes even you can try that.

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

Thats what I thought. When the rubber hits the road....notta...zilch...zippo.. I only asked for one thing...and its the only thing that matters. Everything else is hot air.

Folks -- Whyes does not intrepret the laws, nor I, nor RCUniverse (and I suspect they will close this thread shortly....they usually do), nor the AMA, nor Futuba....not even the FCC for that matter. On questions of legal matters, seek the councel of a lawyer and look for explicit examples where people have gone to jail or been found quilty. Otherwise you read what it says and you take you best shot.....not just on this on everything.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

How many laws do you think are not enforced well. Hundreds....thousands?

So that makes them not really laws?? and breaking them not illegal?

Your logic escapes me. I could say there has never been a case of prosecution of this part of the CFRs, but that does not then make it then legal to violate them?

Whyes

You havent supported your ASSUMPTION regarding IF it is illegal to CHANGE the crystal it would be ILLEGAL to sell it . I have provided illustrations that dispute that flawed logic .

You have claimed FCC enforcement is stringent ,any cber or ham can tell you it is not . There are many pirate radio stations operating illegally on broadcast freqs in many college towns . Enforcement is rare . RARE not non enforced . NO I will not look that up for you either .
PROVE your own claims .


You have picked up the sportpilot habit of demanding PROOF while you yourself offer no proof of your own claims . There are laws that are under prosecuted . I SAID enforcement is rare . I ALSO said it is good to have clean hands in the event of a problem.

There is a first time for everything . There is no precedent until there is a ruling indeed . Neither you nor I know whether or NOT there has been a prosecution or a LAWSUIT in this mater .
I do know an individual who was on the frequency committee that drafted thes rules . The intent and the rules are clear. I personally HOPE no one is ever prosecuted .

If I HAPPEN to come across any examples I will be sure to let you know.
A time back one of the people in this thread asserted there were next to no industrial users on the 72-76 Mhz BAND (no response to that eh sportpilot ? ) It didn't take long for someone to print out over 1000 users in Cook Cty Illinois ! Of course the ASSerter had little to say and even questioned the source as I recall ( The "source" was the FCC database.

Staytuned

Meanwhile , No one is going out of their way to do substantial legal research for a cheap little dare.

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

Thats because your not a lawyer. There are well written laws and there are laws that are not well written. All of the laws that are important are written well and they are enforced. Until a law is tested in court...its exact meaning is only known by those who wrote it. Unless, of course, you have some mind reading capabilities you haven't told us about yet.

I have seen nothing yet that you have provided to me that says its illegal....and in the US...you have the burden of proof. You are claiming criminality...so the threshold you are reaching for, is beyond a reasonable doubt...and neither you nor Wyes has successfully meant that burden.

There has to be at least one case out there where this law has been interpreted. I can't believe there are so many people going around spouting this BS and its never been tested in court.

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

Than stop offering legal advice and go back to your primary job....which I guarantee you is not interpreting FCC regs.

If you find case law where someone went to jail for changing their Tx crystal...Let me know.

If you find it (and I'm hoping you do because if not, there are alot of people that are full of it) ...you win...I'm wrong and its illegal.

Whyes

And you do ?

You have yet to correct your erroneous assertions


2MuchThrow ;

"The law is you cannot open up the box and internally change anything."

Not at all true , you may make changes to sections OUTSIDE the RF deck . Kit built Heathkits Ace kits ,and others allowed home builders to build their own transmitters EVERYTHING BUT THE FACTORY BUILT and tuned RF DECK !...

2MuchThrow ;
"that's the law mr matt"

NOW YOU are giving YOUR interpretation !




'Sorry, but if the FCC forbids the crystals from being changed by law, than it is illegal for Futuba or Tower Hobbies to sell them. That would make them a party to the crime. The law is "blind" to "outcry"....outcry is something politicians deal with.'

Again offering crystals is NOT illegal any more than it is illegal to sell you a ham transmitter you have no license to operate .. An interpretation based on flawed weak logic.
Are you saying if you can buy it it is legal to use it ? WRONG [&o]


" (Then) stop offering legal advice and go back to your primary job....which I guarantee you is not interpreting FCC regs "


If you can offer advice ANYONE can

You need a dose of your own advice [X(]

Sport_Pilot

You are right!? Actually I am not sure, this is what everybody says, but I don't recall reading that in the reg's. However changing RF boards by the user is not uncommon also. But come to think of it this may be perfectly legal also, since the FCC got rid of the tech requirement and never really explained what a "certified technician" is. Badly written reg is is. Especially the radio control section which seems to be written for third graders.

But I fail to see how changing a user changeable component is a modification. By your definition flipping a frequency switch is a modification.

BTW. Hard to believe much you say, because you get too emotional and condescending.

Sport_Pilot

Not criminal law but it is against civil law. But you have to have an accident caused by poor frequency from a user changed crystal sold by Futaba or whomever. If this happened and my lawer agreed with you I'd sue Futaba for selling the crystal.

Hmmm, no such accident? Another case of making a mountain out of a molehill.

Whyes

The RF deck must be approved for the intended application ,but yes you may change it , And YES the "technician" rule is very ambiguous now.
And if you care to look it up the FCC states in Qand A that the user may change switches pots etc . Just about anything outside the RF deck . The BATTERY may be replaced with any battery of the same nominal voltage ,but a larger capacity is fine .

Condecension ? You ought to know that one

Civil recourse and ILLEGALITY are TWO DIFFERENT things

And YES indeed YOU Tend to like making a mountain out of a molehill look at the time you spent proving it !

ANYone can sue .

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

Webster disagress with you.

illegal

\Il*le"gal\, a. [Pref. il- not + legal: cf. F. ill['e]gal.] Not according to, or authorized by, law; specif., contrary to, or in violation of, human law; unlawful; illicit; hence, immoral; as, an illegal act; illegal trade; illegal love. --Bp. Burnet.

If something is illegal, it can be against civil code or criminal code. Both are Laws that are written and determined by your state and federal government.

[hr]

The federal regs on R/C are written more geared towards manufacturers and companies distributing this equipment than anything else. And as far as selling crystals...I'm spouting the same nonsense back at you....It is actually a much clearer and clean interpretation than the unsubstantiated nonsense on this issue that I've read in the past.

§ 95.645 Control accessibility.
(b) An R/C transmitter which incorporates plug-in frequency determining modules which are changed by the user must be certificated with the modules. Each module must contain all of the frequency determining circuitry including the oscillator. Plug-in crystals are not considered modules and must NOT be accessible to the user.

That seems much more straight forward on a first read...FCC forbids manufacturers from making available plug-in crystals accessible to the user. Just don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill and have Tower stop selling crystals thats why I ignored your request for more.

Whyes

That is why I MENTIONED that the crystal door was a concession to allow world market radios to be sold in the US market.
Futaba USUALLY glues the door in place . A poor method but that satisfied the powers to be .

Of course OJ Simpson was never found guilty of murder by the criminal courts , but the civil suit had a different outcome altogether .

Civil recourse can be sought even though there was no ILLEGALITY involved . No disagreement with "Webster " at all .

I don't buy YOUR interpretation of Webster any more than your knowledge of radio theory.

I guarantee by your spelling efforts you are no more an English teacher nor lawyer than I am .

Now GIVE ME YOUR THEORY ON THE BANDWIDTH DETERMINING FACTORS IN A TYPICAL RC TRANSMITTER RF CIRCUIT > LETS SEE YOUR RUBBER HOLD THE LOAD .


If this weren't FUN for me I would have quit long ago

3d-aholic

My Feedback: (7)

Your fishing to change the subject and I'm not biting.