Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
01-09-2008, 07:37 PM
#101
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Hopefuly Futaba will make a big effort to find all the radios that may be effected
and try to somehow contact the owners and also do a full disclosure of the facts
on their web site.
and try to somehow contact the owners and also do a full disclosure of the facts
on their web site.
01-09-2008, 07:46 PM
#102
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Deep in the Heart Of, TX,
Posts: 602
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
ORIGINAL: dick Hanson
- I am sure some are preparing the fatted crow luncheon --for those who early on solemnly declared there was only one plausable system -- and it was worth the wait .
Crow is a dish best served cold ---
- I am sure some are preparing the fatted crow luncheon --for those who early on solemnly declared there was only one plausable system -- and it was worth the wait .
Crow is a dish best served cold ---
Later;
D.W.
01-09-2008, 07:55 PM
#104
Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Annapolis,
MD
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
Exactly, Silent.
We have two 6ex's at our field since early last year - mine and a friend. We did testing at our field between the two units before we flew at the same time, and all was fine. Also flew with the Spectrum fliers, no problems. I just started flying with the TM-14 module in my 12 Z last week, and have tried to make the two systems (6ex and tm-14) interfere with each other, but they work perfectly. This was with the 12Z operating one of the 606's. Another club member now has a 7C system, so we will get together with him when he brings it to the field the first time, and do some testing. If all goes well, problem solved at our club site, and we will keep going until a solution for all is found, or unless another member gets a system, and re-testing should resolve that. User testing should be done with all new technology, whether or not there is a known problem, as we did last spring when we first got the 6ex's. However I do realize while it's simple for us at our field, a much larger problem at events and larger clubs.
Andy S.
These are the wisest words I have seen so far. It appears to be a limited issue right now and the proper people are aware and working on it.
It also seems to be something that can be easily checked in the field and restricted one particular type of system.
But the villagers have still grabbed their torches and are storming the castle with cries of "Kill the Monster!!".
Oh well.
Exactly, Silent.
We have two 6ex's at our field since early last year - mine and a friend. We did testing at our field between the two units before we flew at the same time, and all was fine. Also flew with the Spectrum fliers, no problems. I just started flying with the TM-14 module in my 12 Z last week, and have tried to make the two systems (6ex and tm-14) interfere with each other, but they work perfectly. This was with the 12Z operating one of the 606's. Another club member now has a 7C system, so we will get together with him when he brings it to the field the first time, and do some testing. If all goes well, problem solved at our club site, and we will keep going until a solution for all is found, or unless another member gets a system, and re-testing should resolve that. User testing should be done with all new technology, whether or not there is a known problem, as we did last spring when we first got the 6ex's. However I do realize while it's simple for us at our field, a much larger problem at events and larger clubs.
Andy S.
ORIGINAL: GrayUK
Dont panic Mr M, we do not know yet how many sets are involved, it could be 10, 100, 1000, we do not know, so lets wait and see.
We have continued to fly safely in our club since we discovered the issue.
It is not a big problem now it has been identified.
Just hold fire untill we get the official heads up.
Paul
Dont panic Mr M, we do not know yet how many sets are involved, it could be 10, 100, 1000, we do not know, so lets wait and see.
We have continued to fly safely in our club since we discovered the issue.
It is not a big problem now it has been identified.
Just hold fire untill we get the official heads up.
Paul
It also seems to be something that can be easily checked in the field and restricted one particular type of system.
But the villagers have still grabbed their torches and are storming the castle with cries of "Kill the Monster!!".
Oh well.
01-09-2008, 08:52 PM
#105
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lyndonville, VT
Posts: 3,305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Dick,
I'm sure that if a batch of Spektrum radios got out with the GUID programmed to all zeros, I'm sure the results would be similar.
Regards,
Pete
I'm sure that if a batch of Spektrum radios got out with the GUID programmed to all zeros, I'm sure the results would be similar.
Regards,
Pete
01-09-2008, 09:12 PM
#107
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Apopka,
FL
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
The probmem is.... how are you going to know you have a problem?
Say there are 5 FAAST flyers in your club. Even if all 5 test there FAAST system against each of the other FAAST systems all you will know is that there are not multiple systems with 00000000000 ID's. You will not know if YOU have a problem FAAST system with a 000000000 ID.
Say a new FAAST system shows up and is tested against 4 of the 5 existing systems with no problem...... then a few weeks later after everybody has been flying fine with no issues the last FAAST system shows up turns on and crashes the new FASST system.
FOR SAFTEY, ANY NEW FAAST SYSYEMS IN A CLUB WILL HAVE TO BE TESTED AGAINST ALL OTHER FAAST SYSTEMS IN A CLUB.........
The best solution will have to be a recall of the effected units if Futaba has a way to identify them or a general recall of all FAAST units.
Say there are 5 FAAST flyers in your club. Even if all 5 test there FAAST system against each of the other FAAST systems all you will know is that there are not multiple systems with 00000000000 ID's. You will not know if YOU have a problem FAAST system with a 000000000 ID.
Say a new FAAST system shows up and is tested against 4 of the 5 existing systems with no problem...... then a few weeks later after everybody has been flying fine with no issues the last FAAST system shows up turns on and crashes the new FASST system.
FOR SAFTEY, ANY NEW FAAST SYSYEMS IN A CLUB WILL HAVE TO BE TESTED AGAINST ALL OTHER FAAST SYSTEMS IN A CLUB.........
The best solution will have to be a recall of the effected units if Futaba has a way to identify them or a general recall of all FAAST units.
01-09-2008, 09:24 PM
#108
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Altaville,
CA
Posts: 1,416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Thats when the big black helicopter swoops in and sucks em all up. Scrambles the brains of everyone who noticed. Takes all the bad bad radios to a secret hideous location. Reworks them and sells them on Ebay auctions for double the money of a new one and makes the gready corporate bosses very rich. happens all the time.
01-09-2008, 09:42 PM
#109
My Feedback: (24)
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Regarding the Code/ID that is being transmitted .... if you swap your 72 mhz module for a 2.4 module .... is 'your' ID the original ID of the transmitter, or the ID of the module ? ? As an example, my 12Z has a sticker on it that shows the radios' ID, and, my TM-14 module also has a sticker on it with the modules' ID.
(PS: I like the idea that someone suggested in a post on page 1 .... of allowing the owner of the transmitter to be able to manually set the ID/Code ... perhaps using a combination of letters and numbers).
Bob
(PS: I like the idea that someone suggested in a post on page 1 .... of allowing the owner of the transmitter to be able to manually set the ID/Code ... perhaps using a combination of letters and numbers).
Bob
01-09-2008, 10:49 PM
#110
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Left Coast ,
CA
Posts: 4,890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
ORIGINAL: altavillan
Thats when the big black helicopter swoops in and sucks em all up. Scrambles the brains of everyone who noticed. Takes all the bad bad radios to a secret hideous location. Reworks them and sells them on Ebay auctions for double the money of a new one and makes the gready corporate bosses very rich. happens all the time.
Thats when the big black helicopter swoops in and sucks em all up. Scrambles the brains of everyone who noticed. Takes all the bad bad radios to a secret hideous location. Reworks them and sells them on Ebay auctions for double the money of a new one and makes the gready corporate bosses very rich. happens all the time.
01-09-2008, 11:24 PM
#111
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Monticello,
IL
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Yeah, wouldn't that be funny with people setting their own GUID. Mathematics makes it almost (never completlely) random but as soon as you stick the human in place it is no longer a random code.
And secondly, can you, imagine the mess if a bunch of these systems show up at a contest! Hmm, I wonder how many FASST systems will be flying at the Phoenix race next weekend? At least it is just an issue with Futaba.
This whole thing about 2.4 is about the programing, nothing else, something RC guys know almost nothing about. Its a strange new world out there.
Jimnie
And secondly, can you, imagine the mess if a bunch of these systems show up at a contest! Hmm, I wonder how many FASST systems will be flying at the Phoenix race next weekend? At least it is just an issue with Futaba.
This whole thing about 2.4 is about the programing, nothing else, something RC guys know almost nothing about. Its a strange new world out there.
Jimnie
01-09-2008, 11:55 PM
#112
My Feedback: (21)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: EdmontonAB, CANADA
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
I'm going to call Hobbico tomorrow and see if they will take my 7C in just so they can verify it's a non-"0" code. They should update the software so you can see the code you have... mind you if the process sent them out all unique it would not be an issue.
At least if you have a non-"0" one you know you won't have the issue or cause anyone else grief.
What a way to start!
At least if you have a non-"0" one you know you won't have the issue or cause anyone else grief.
What a way to start!
01-10-2008, 12:10 AM
#113
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Miramar,
FL
Posts: 958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Take a 6 or 7 channel receiver that you know is not bind to your radio, connect a few servos and a battery to it, now without binding turn on your radio then the receiver, if you have control of the rx the radio is no good if you don't have contol of the rx then you good to go.
Doug.
Doug.
01-10-2008, 12:33 AM
#114
My Feedback: (21)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: EdmontonAB, CANADA
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Good thinking Doug - I have several Rx's I can try this with. It will be really good to know!
On the iffy side - I opened my 7C today. The Rx did NOT have to be bound... I figured I had a pre-bound one but maybe I do have one of the 0 ones.
I just tried it and I am okay on this test. So if my Tx had all "0's" as a code it would have Linked to the Rx immediately correct?
Chris.
On the iffy side - I opened my 7C today. The Rx did NOT have to be bound... I figured I had a pre-bound one but maybe I do have one of the 0 ones.
I just tried it and I am okay on this test. So if my Tx had all "0's" as a code it would have Linked to the Rx immediately correct?
Chris.
01-10-2008, 01:39 AM
#115
Senior Member
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Mount Dora,
FL
Posts: 877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Chris, the transmitter sets should come prebound, as do should the module sets. I also dont think Dougs test will help any but I could be wrong. It is my undersatanding that the transmitters that come with the 0000 code still have to be bound to the receiver. The problem is that there have been cases when there are more than one transmitter with the same code so that when one binds the 0000 code then the other 0000 transmitter has control. I would wait for info from Futaba for a real check. The good news is that the 14mz sets are not involved so they should be safe.
01-10-2008, 01:43 AM
#116
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: La Jolla, CA
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
I don't think that test is valid. Having an all 0000 code would be no problem if there were only one of them. The problem seems to be that multiple radios were sent out with all 0000 codes, meaning their codes are the same. Radios with the same code will interfere with each other. So the only test that would clear your radio, is to take a radio that is known to have an all 0000 code and see if it operates a receiver that your radio is bound to. In my opinion, if Futaba cannot positively identify by it's manufacturing records which radios have the bad codes, they need to recall all of them and check/reprogram them.
The idea of having users enter their own code numbers is ludicrous. The whole shared frequency model of the 2.4 protocol entirely depends on having a proper GUID. That is a number that is guaranteed to be unique in the entire universe. That number must be generated by a computer, using a proven algorithm. You could never get a user generated number past FCC certification.
The idea of having users enter their own code numbers is ludicrous. The whole shared frequency model of the 2.4 protocol entirely depends on having a proper GUID. That is a number that is guaranteed to be unique in the entire universe. That number must be generated by a computer, using a proven algorithm. You could never get a user generated number past FCC certification.
01-10-2008, 01:55 AM
#117
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: La Jolla, CA
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
How do we know which models are involved. Just because we don't have a report yet. The odds are that the entire FAAST model line uses the same GUID creating process. After all, the RF chips are probably identical. The difference in radio models will not be in the RF chip, but the radio feature, component, and programming sets. This can only be known if Futaba has the production records to prove that. This is a very newly identified problem. It will be up to Futaba to do proper research into the subject and protect it's customers. From what I know of Futaba's excellent reputation, they will do that. I do believe that if these were real planes, with what we already know, the FAA would ground all Futaba 2.4 systems. I also guarantee the military would ground them if this problem were even suspected from such a critical component in a system. Since we don't have the FAA protecting RC, It is probably best not to fly Futaba 2.4 until we hear from them.
01-10-2008, 02:41 AM
#118
Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: CO
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
I've been thinking about how people could test their Tx's in the field, or local hobby store
without having to send every Tx back to Futaba.
Premise: All affected Tx's have an all zeros GUID (which I'll refer to as ZGUID from now on).
Finding and having one of these ZGUID Tx's on hand would actually be quite valuable to any given R/C club or LHS.
Instead of every member of the club having to test their Futaba Tx against every other Futaba Tx
in the club (all of them not knowing if one or more is a ZGUID Tx, until some random person shows up with another one),
if you had one you knew was a ZGUID Tx, each Futaba pilot need only do a ground check with that one Tx, and if they
don't step on each other, then they can be sure that their Tx has a valid non-zero GUID.
Basically, short of Futaba recalling every Tx out there, they could actually ship out
some slightly crippled, or marked not for sale, ZGUID Tx's to all their major retailers, and then ask
everyone to test again them.
ian
without having to send every Tx back to Futaba.
Premise: All affected Tx's have an all zeros GUID (which I'll refer to as ZGUID from now on).
Finding and having one of these ZGUID Tx's on hand would actually be quite valuable to any given R/C club or LHS.
Instead of every member of the club having to test their Futaba Tx against every other Futaba Tx
in the club (all of them not knowing if one or more is a ZGUID Tx, until some random person shows up with another one),
if you had one you knew was a ZGUID Tx, each Futaba pilot need only do a ground check with that one Tx, and if they
don't step on each other, then they can be sure that their Tx has a valid non-zero GUID.
Basically, short of Futaba recalling every Tx out there, they could actually ship out
some slightly crippled, or marked not for sale, ZGUID Tx's to all their major retailers, and then ask
everyone to test again them.
ian
01-10-2008, 04:16 AM
#119
Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: CO
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Rather than double posting everything, check out this excellent suggestion by another RCG member,
in response to what I suggested above.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=6#post8898990
Basically send out Rxs bound to the ZGUID, to be used to test for the existence of ZGUID Txs.
ian
in response to what I suggested above.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=6#post8898990
Basically send out Rxs bound to the ZGUID, to be used to test for the existence of ZGUID Txs.
ian
01-10-2008, 07:45 AM
#120
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New South Wales, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
I have seen an identical MAC address at work from 2 different Manufacturers.
They were suppose to be absolutely unique as well.
They were suppose to be absolutely unique as well.
01-10-2008, 07:55 AM
#121
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Deep in the Heart Of, TX,
Posts: 602
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
ORIGINAL: Daemon
I've been thinking about how people could test their Tx's in the field, or local hobby store
without having to send every Tx back to Futaba.
ian
I've been thinking about how people could test their Tx's in the field, or local hobby store
without having to send every Tx back to Futaba.
ian
Get all 2.4 FASST systems in your club together and carry out the following test.
Switch on your TX and all other RX’s, see if any other system will respond, if not then repeat with all other TX’s one at a time. Remember, only 1 TX at a time.
What this will do will show that all the TX’s in your club are not interfering with each others rx, therefore you do not have more than ONE faulty TX present. However if a new TX or module turns up then you MUST repeat the test, because one of your TX’s may have been faulty but it would not show unless 2 or more are present. (Bit of a pain but you can at least continue with safety until Futaba give a heads up on this and resolve/replace the faulty TX’s.
Switch on your TX and all other RX’s, see if any other system will respond, if not then repeat with all other TX’s one at a time. Remember, only 1 TX at a time.
What this will do will show that all the TX’s in your club are not interfering with each others rx, therefore you do not have more than ONE faulty TX present. However if a new TX or module turns up then you MUST repeat the test, because one of your TX’s may have been faulty but it would not show unless 2 or more are present. (Bit of a pain but you can at least continue with safety until Futaba give a heads up on this and resolve/replace the faulty TX’s.
D.W.
01-10-2008, 09:03 AM
#122
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: , GERMANY
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
Hi!
Does anyone know, if ZGUID TXes work with separately sold, brand-new RXes?
If this was the case, it would be even easier to test if your TX was affected.
When I was Futaba, I would immediately ship out "ZGUID warnig devices" to all major meetings, like the E Fest or else.
Warning device as described here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=78
Does anyone know, if ZGUID TXes work with separately sold, brand-new RXes?
If this was the case, it would be even easier to test if your TX was affected.
When I was Futaba, I would immediately ship out "ZGUID warnig devices" to all major meetings, like the E Fest or else.
Warning device as described here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=78
01-10-2008, 10:45 AM
#123
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Deep in the Heart Of, TX,
Posts: 602
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
ORIGINAL: pilotpete2
Dick,
I'm sure that if a batch of Spektrum radios got out with the GUID programmed to all zeros, I'm sure the results would be similar.
Regards,
Pete
Dick,
I'm sure that if a batch of Spektrum radios got out with the GUID programmed to all zeros, I'm sure the results would be similar.
Regards,
Pete
No real problem in the first case, and not very likely in the second.
Later;
D.W.
01-10-2008, 10:56 AM
#124
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
ORIGINAL: d_wheel
The only place I can see this happening is if a flier turned his receiver on while someone else was flying. His receivers might see the 2 channels from the first transmitter, but since they have the correct GUID, they would start using the data from those channels. Another possibility is if the receiver momentarily looses power in the air (NO, this could NEVER happen), and when it comes back up it selects the wrong channels.
No real problem in the first case, and not very likely in the second.
Later;
D.W.
ORIGINAL: pilotpete2
Dick,
I'm sure that if a batch of Spektrum radios got out with the GUID programmed to all zeros, I'm sure the results would be similar.
Regards,
Pete
Dick,
I'm sure that if a batch of Spektrum radios got out with the GUID programmed to all zeros, I'm sure the results would be similar.
Regards,
Pete
No real problem in the first case, and not very likely in the second.
Later;
D.W.
The SYSTEM is different -
01-10-2008, 12:30 PM
#125
My Feedback: (21)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: EdmontonAB, CANADA
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Major Glitch in a Futaba SS system!!
I am surprised that Futaba only uses a 7 digit code. A GUID (globally unique identifier) is generated by an algorythm. They could have made the GUID get generated the first time the transmitter is turned on.
They could implement model match in a similar way by combining a GUID with some other unique number - or better yet just generate a new GUID for each model and bind the Rx to the model (I would guess this is what Spektrum does.).
Other than that I like the system... but having it rely on the factory doing something to set the ID is not a great design...
They could implement model match in a similar way by combining a GUID with some other unique number - or better yet just generate a new GUID for each model and bind the Rx to the model (I would guess this is what Spektrum does.).
Other than that I like the system... but having it rely on the factory doing something to set the ID is not a great design...