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12-20-2002, 01:31 PM
#76
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Bill
I feel exactly the same way you do, in every aspect of your last post.
Please lets drop the "legalities" and start using good old common sense. I think with the exception of one or two who want to argue the point only for the sake of arguing, I think that most of us can use our common sense. I think that we CAN help out our fellow modeler, hoping that the one who we are helping is not setting a trap to initiate a law suite.
I think that the LEGAL issues here have been covered to access and should be left alone. Even though I know there are some LAWYERS among us modelers, this web sight is called RC Universe, not Lawyers Universe. Let us than be RCers and friends. not lawyers and adversaries. I like the first better than the latter. Don't you? If it is printed in a magazine I feel it is public domain and should be shared with any one who asks, not to be used for your personal gain and profit.
Thank You
Otto
I feel exactly the same way you do, in every aspect of your last post.
Please lets drop the "legalities" and start using good old common sense. I think with the exception of one or two who want to argue the point only for the sake of arguing, I think that most of us can use our common sense. I think that we CAN help out our fellow modeler, hoping that the one who we are helping is not setting a trap to initiate a law suite.
I think that the LEGAL issues here have been covered to access and should be left alone. Even though I know there are some LAWYERS among us modelers, this web sight is called RC Universe, not Lawyers Universe. Let us than be RCers and friends. not lawyers and adversaries. I like the first better than the latter. Don't you? If it is printed in a magazine I feel it is public domain and should be shared with any one who asks, not to be used for your personal gain and profit.
Thank You
Otto
12-20-2002, 01:42 PM
#77
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Hmmmmm...
I agree with you in general, Otto. Nothing worse than internet amateur lawyering. There are HUGE legal misconceptions in many of the posts above. Including yours!
I mean, gross distortions, that some people are going to read as gospel and repeat.
DO NOT get legal advice over the internet! That's my legal advice!
By the way, Bill...the McDonalds coffee thing...
This came up in conversation the other day with my lawyer. I used it as an example of a frivolous lawsuit, and he put me in my place. He had done a lot more research on it, and pointed out some stuff I did not know...
The woman had third degree burns and had to get multiple surgeries and skin grafts.
The temperature of McDonalds coffee was WELL above standards established by the government for safety.
McDonalds had been warned before, multiple times. This was far from the first injury.
$8 million is about the least amount of money it will take to get a company as large as Micky D's to pay attention. Do you really think a $100k judgement is going to make them change the way they do business?
It was through the drive through window. WHY was the coffee so hot? So that it would still be hot when people arrive at their offices. Sell a lot of coffee that way.
So...it was not as simple as some woman scalded her tongue and got $8 million.
Well, nomex flamesuit on!
I agree with you in general, Otto. Nothing worse than internet amateur lawyering. There are HUGE legal misconceptions in many of the posts above. Including yours!
I mean, gross distortions, that some people are going to read as gospel and repeat.
DO NOT get legal advice over the internet! That's my legal advice!
By the way, Bill...the McDonalds coffee thing...
This came up in conversation the other day with my lawyer. I used it as an example of a frivolous lawsuit, and he put me in my place. He had done a lot more research on it, and pointed out some stuff I did not know...
The woman had third degree burns and had to get multiple surgeries and skin grafts.
The temperature of McDonalds coffee was WELL above standards established by the government for safety.
McDonalds had been warned before, multiple times. This was far from the first injury.
$8 million is about the least amount of money it will take to get a company as large as Micky D's to pay attention. Do you really think a $100k judgement is going to make them change the way they do business?
It was through the drive through window. WHY was the coffee so hot? So that it would still be hot when people arrive at their offices. Sell a lot of coffee that way.
So...it was not as simple as some woman scalded her tongue and got $8 million.
Well, nomex flamesuit on!
12-20-2002, 08:26 PM
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EasyTiger:
Okay, Easy.
1) Lawyer. Enough said.
2) The result of her carelessness.
3) Personal responsibility does not count: Big Brother strikes again.
4) See 3)
5) Of course it's hot. Have you ever made coffee? Remember you boil the water? And since tepid coffee does not sell well they keep it hot. Anyone but a fool would realize the temperature could be high.
6) Yes, it is that simple even though there was more damage than a blister on her tongue. Out right thievery, aided and abetted by a bottom-feeding lawyer who saw a chance for a healthy contingency fee. And got it. Slime.
In a reasonable society it would have been laughed out of court.
Go to McDonald's, hit your head on the wall.
. Sue the b******s, have a ball.
Bill.
Originally posted by EASYTIGER
By the way, Bill...the McDonalds coffee thing...
This came up in conversation the other day with my lawyer.... (1)
The woman had third degree burns and had to get multiple surgeries and skin grafts... (2)
The temperature of McDonalds coffee was WELL above standards established by the government for safety... (3)
McDonalds had been warned before, multiple times... (4)
It was through the drive through window. WHY was the coffee so hot? So that it would still be hot when people arrive at their offices. Sell a lot of coffee that way... (5)
So...it was not as simple as some woman scalded her tongue and got $8 million. (6)
Well, nomex flamesuit on!
By the way, Bill...the McDonalds coffee thing...
This came up in conversation the other day with my lawyer.... (1)
The woman had third degree burns and had to get multiple surgeries and skin grafts... (2)
The temperature of McDonalds coffee was WELL above standards established by the government for safety... (3)
McDonalds had been warned before, multiple times... (4)
It was through the drive through window. WHY was the coffee so hot? So that it would still be hot when people arrive at their offices. Sell a lot of coffee that way... (5)
So...it was not as simple as some woman scalded her tongue and got $8 million. (6)
Well, nomex flamesuit on!
1) Lawyer. Enough said.
2) The result of her carelessness.
3) Personal responsibility does not count: Big Brother strikes again.
4) See 3)
5) Of course it's hot. Have you ever made coffee? Remember you boil the water? And since tepid coffee does not sell well they keep it hot. Anyone but a fool would realize the temperature could be high.
6) Yes, it is that simple even though there was more damage than a blister on her tongue. Out right thievery, aided and abetted by a bottom-feeding lawyer who saw a chance for a healthy contingency fee. And got it. Slime.
In a reasonable society it would have been laughed out of court.
Go to McDonald's, hit your head on the wall.
. Sue the b******s, have a ball.
Bill.
12-22-2002, 11:03 PM
#81
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Interesting discussion, I have a couple hypothetical questions
1) I built a Salient Designs Boxer 45. I liked it so much I phoned Gus to order plans for one of his bigger Boxers. His wife told me he had passed away. If I find someone willing to sell me either a copy or an original is one of us breaking the copyright since this is the only way I can get his plans. (This would be a great business opportunity if someone could buy the rights to his line of plans.
2) I buy a set of plans from Brian Taylor, I enlarge them and make a fiberglass mold. If a couple friends ask for glass fuses and I sell them at my cost an I breaking a copyright. If I sell them for a profit I can see that would be a problem.
1) I built a Salient Designs Boxer 45. I liked it so much I phoned Gus to order plans for one of his bigger Boxers. His wife told me he had passed away. If I find someone willing to sell me either a copy or an original is one of us breaking the copyright since this is the only way I can get his plans. (This would be a great business opportunity if someone could buy the rights to his line of plans.
2) I buy a set of plans from Brian Taylor, I enlarge them and make a fiberglass mold. If a couple friends ask for glass fuses and I sell them at my cost an I breaking a copyright. If I sell them for a profit I can see that would be a problem.
12-23-2002, 01:41 AM
#84
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Sorry, I've only been here a couple weeks so I haven't figured out all the online politics yet. I have a BT Kingfisher that I had enlarged to 80". I'm considering doing it in fiberglass and was sort of wondering what the morally right thing to do was if anyone asked for a fuse from my mold. I found this discussion really interesting as there have been several things mentioned I had never considered before.
Dave
Dave
12-23-2002, 01:42 AM
#85
Lake Flyer
Lake flyer Im not playing atty here but giving you info that will send you in the right direction to search. I used to do a lot of writing as in short stories for magazines and in working for a boat factory have found this out.
question 1:
If the owner of the copyright dies the copyright stays with his material (this is what I am not sure of the nuber of years) for 10 yrs then goes into public domain.
2. You can take anyones plans and as long as you alter them by 10% can slap your name on them without a problem. so in essence you can enlarge the plans by 10% and then they are considered significantly modified. I have seen this done with a couple companies who have done it with the sig Fazer and other planes.
3. As far as molds the designers copyright is only on PAPER or Cad version meaning the drawings themselves. if you make a mold that is not under copyright. copyright is for printed material only the mold would fall under patent laws. now if you build the mold you can safely sell fuses etc unless the designer built the mold and patented it then you would need a 10% change.
The Question is more in ethics than it is in laws. if you change a mere 10% then you can claim it as your own. Business do it all the time they take someone elses product that is popular and change it and sell it that way they know it will probably be safe to say sell and make their development money back.
You have a 50/50 in the RC area as half will say as long as it is legal go for it then the other half will say why would a person want to screw the original designer by claiming work that was mostly someone elses. Personally I feel yes its not fair but in the real world it is done all the time and it is called prudent business. I would gather 90% of everything you own was originally someone elses idea or concept that someone else previously had done otherwise stuff would cost so much just to pay for the engineering and development costs.
Joe
PS guys I know we have argued this back and forth on other threadds and I am not wanting to start another debate I was only answering the Gentlemans questions and he can research and make up his own moral standards.
question 1:
If the owner of the copyright dies the copyright stays with his material (this is what I am not sure of the nuber of years) for 10 yrs then goes into public domain.
2. You can take anyones plans and as long as you alter them by 10% can slap your name on them without a problem. so in essence you can enlarge the plans by 10% and then they are considered significantly modified. I have seen this done with a couple companies who have done it with the sig Fazer and other planes.
3. As far as molds the designers copyright is only on PAPER or Cad version meaning the drawings themselves. if you make a mold that is not under copyright. copyright is for printed material only the mold would fall under patent laws. now if you build the mold you can safely sell fuses etc unless the designer built the mold and patented it then you would need a 10% change.
The Question is more in ethics than it is in laws. if you change a mere 10% then you can claim it as your own. Business do it all the time they take someone elses product that is popular and change it and sell it that way they know it will probably be safe to say sell and make their development money back.
You have a 50/50 in the RC area as half will say as long as it is legal go for it then the other half will say why would a person want to screw the original designer by claiming work that was mostly someone elses. Personally I feel yes its not fair but in the real world it is done all the time and it is called prudent business. I would gather 90% of everything you own was originally someone elses idea or concept that someone else previously had done otherwise stuff would cost so much just to pay for the engineering and development costs.
Joe
PS guys I know we have argued this back and forth on other threadds and I am not wanting to start another debate I was only answering the Gentlemans questions and he can research and make up his own moral standards.
12-23-2002, 03:21 AM
#86
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Yow! Prof. Looney, I love ya, but your post above about copyright law is dead wrong, from top to bottom!
Lake Flyer, I have been here a long time, and I havn't figured out the politics, either! It's no matter. Speak your mind, and don't worry too much. I don't know who they are talking about, as far as the copying goes.
1. Follow your conscience. If you tried to get permission, but could not find out who owned the design, and you want to build one, just do it. We are not talking about lost designs that nobody sells being an issue, just people knocking off and selling copies of designs that other people own and sell.
2. You enlarge a plan, and make a fiberglass mold. So...what is left of Brian Taylor in it? None of the internal structure. Just the outline. Which he got from Vought. Unless Vought or the U.S. Navy has a problem with you making a copy, it's not a problem! Think about it...you could have just started with the Vought drawings and gotten the same result. You are NOT building a BT Kingfisher.
Lake Flyer, I have been here a long time, and I havn't figured out the politics, either! It's no matter. Speak your mind, and don't worry too much. I don't know who they are talking about, as far as the copying goes.
1. Follow your conscience. If you tried to get permission, but could not find out who owned the design, and you want to build one, just do it. We are not talking about lost designs that nobody sells being an issue, just people knocking off and selling copies of designs that other people own and sell.
2. You enlarge a plan, and make a fiberglass mold. So...what is left of Brian Taylor in it? None of the internal structure. Just the outline. Which he got from Vought. Unless Vought or the U.S. Navy has a problem with you making a copy, it's not a problem! Think about it...you could have just started with the Vought drawings and gotten the same result. You are NOT building a BT Kingfisher.
12-23-2002, 03:27 AM
#87
easytiger
I dont know what part you talking is wrong do a search on the net for federal copyright and patent laws. but you are right in this hobby it isnt worth making a big case about just do it hehehe
Joe
PS and as of sometime in the 80's any written material is automatically copyrighted and you dont have to apply for a copyright like you used to
Joe
PS and as of sometime in the 80's any written material is automatically copyrighted and you dont have to apply for a copyright like you used to
12-23-2002, 03:51 AM
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EZ:
But is a lawyer really any better for legal advice? They'll say "This way this, but that way..." There is even disagreement among the sleazes. (Lawyers) Their main concern seems to be how to stretch things out and bill you for more hours. Or get a bigger contingency cut.
When you run into a lawyer common sense goes out the window.
What do you get when you cross a sleazy lawyer and a crooked politician?
Chelsea.
Don't know whether or not it's legal,
. but I have a twin that flies like an eagle.
Bill.
But is a lawyer really any better for legal advice? They'll say "This way this, but that way..." There is even disagreement among the sleazes. (Lawyers) Their main concern seems to be how to stretch things out and bill you for more hours. Or get a bigger contingency cut.
When you run into a lawyer common sense goes out the window.
What do you get when you cross a sleazy lawyer and a crooked politician?
Chelsea.
Don't know whether or not it's legal,
. but I have a twin that flies like an eagle.
Bill.
12-23-2002, 03:59 AM
#90
Laws
For copyright laws and answers to all questions go here http://www.lawyers.com/legal_topics/...icleid=1001958
For Basic Patent Info you can go here
http://www.lawyers.com/legal_topics/...icleid=1001012
This will give the basic legal stuff on the laws and like has been pointed out its just up to each person what they want to do.
Joe
For Basic Patent Info you can go here
http://www.lawyers.com/legal_topics/...icleid=1001012
This will give the basic legal stuff on the laws and like has been pointed out its just up to each person what they want to do.
Joe
12-23-2002, 04:06 AM
#91
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That IS funny!
My lawyer is good. He's an honest man. And he's my friend. I have seen bad lawyers and good ones, straight(not a ton of those, but there are some!) and sleaze.
Gawd knows you can hate lawyers all you want, but when you need them, your perspective changes!
In my line of work, we use them all the time, and a good lawyer is a great asset. And he owes ME favors, which is the way to keep them, not the opposite!
Which is nice, because I can get the use of seven lawyers whenever I want an opinion or advice about something like this without actually paying for it.
Keep this in mind, when dealing with issues of law:
Contrary to popular belief, things are not always so cut and dry. Look at all the weird permutations of possibilities that people pointed out above in the preceeding...things are ARGUABLE. The legal term is "litigible". Meaning it's debateable, and a judge or jury will have to hear both sides and make a decision. If everything were so cut and dry, we would not need all those big law books, and we would not need all those lawyers!
My lawyer is good. He's an honest man. And he's my friend. I have seen bad lawyers and good ones, straight(not a ton of those, but there are some!) and sleaze.
Gawd knows you can hate lawyers all you want, but when you need them, your perspective changes!
In my line of work, we use them all the time, and a good lawyer is a great asset. And he owes ME favors, which is the way to keep them, not the opposite!
Which is nice, because I can get the use of seven lawyers whenever I want an opinion or advice about something like this without actually paying for it.
Keep this in mind, when dealing with issues of law:
Contrary to popular belief, things are not always so cut and dry. Look at all the weird permutations of possibilities that people pointed out above in the preceeding...things are ARGUABLE. The legal term is "litigible". Meaning it's debateable, and a judge or jury will have to hear both sides and make a decision. If everything were so cut and dry, we would not need all those big law books, and we would not need all those lawyers!
12-23-2002, 05:08 AM
#92
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EZ:
Of course you're right, I also know some nice ones, not all lawyers are sleaze. I even know a doctor who is more interested in medicine than money!
But consider. If the lawyers had not tangled things up, we wouldn't need all those tangled laws and law books. And the lawyers maintain the tangle to ensure their continuing livelihood.
The lawyers, liberals, and other pink types are trying to remove them from the public eye, but the "Ten Commandments" are sufficient laws for a decent, reasonable, honorable society.
Then we ask a lawyer to define "Thou shalt not steal" and we end up with this thread on copyrights.
Doctor, Lawyer. Indian Chief.
. Which one of the three is not a thief?
Bill.
Of course you're right, I also know some nice ones, not all lawyers are sleaze. I even know a doctor who is more interested in medicine than money!
But consider. If the lawyers had not tangled things up, we wouldn't need all those tangled laws and law books. And the lawyers maintain the tangle to ensure their continuing livelihood.
The lawyers, liberals, and other pink types are trying to remove them from the public eye, but the "Ten Commandments" are sufficient laws for a decent, reasonable, honorable society.
Then we ask a lawyer to define "Thou shalt not steal" and we end up with this thread on copyrights.
Doctor, Lawyer. Indian Chief.
. Which one of the three is not a thief?
Bill.
12-23-2002, 04:16 PM
#93
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ProfLooney
"2. You can take anyones plans and as long as you alter them by 10% can slap your name on them without a problem. so in essence you can enlarge the plans by 10% and then they are considered significantly modified. I have seen this done with a couple companies who have done it with the sig Fazer and other planes."
Joe, I disagree with your interpetation of the 10% part. You can not meet that just by enlarging of reducing by at least 10%. You must change the design, shape etc.
You can't copy a designer shirt and just make it smaller, nor could you republish a book with the type face 10% larger.
Just don't want others to get the wrong idea that they are ok as lomg as they enlarge or reduce the plans.
Jeremy
"2. You can take anyones plans and as long as you alter them by 10% can slap your name on them without a problem. so in essence you can enlarge the plans by 10% and then they are considered significantly modified. I have seen this done with a couple companies who have done it with the sig Fazer and other planes."
Joe, I disagree with your interpetation of the 10% part. You can not meet that just by enlarging of reducing by at least 10%. You must change the design, shape etc.
You can't copy a designer shirt and just make it smaller, nor could you republish a book with the type face 10% larger.
Just don't want others to get the wrong idea that they are ok as lomg as they enlarge or reduce the plans.
Jeremy
12-23-2002, 05:02 PM
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Liberal: (n) Someone who thinks you are to stupid to know what to do with your own money, therefore the government should tell you how to use it.
12-23-2002, 07:33 PM
#95
plans
Wormy Fair enough but these are construction plans and not a shirt its a big difference. The proper way I should have said it is that it must be altered 10% overall. remember these are plans for a machine and eventhough it is printed material it has different things covered by it than say a book would. Also a designer shirt is not covered by copyright which is for printed material only, but would be covered by patent laws. but I agree with what you said for in here so that noone just takes something I say and goes just by that that is why i posted those urls so people can do their research.
I was plant manager of a bassboat factory and we used other peoples boats and altered them for a design we were interested in IE we had only bassboats and wanted a family boat too to widen out sales base so we used another companies fish and ski and all that the law required of us was to change the design by 10% OVERALL which isnt too hard to do. that is why I know for a fact that is what it is is because I had dealt with it for about 12 years and had discussed certain things with our patent lawyer. Corporate business like that can afford patents rc guys usually arent going to spend the thousands on a patent to cover their glass fuses that is why most people dont need to worry about them. Another important point about patents is if you get a US patent it isnt covered or recognized outside the US thus if a person in the UK bought a glass fuse from a US guy that had a patent on it and then used the fuse for a plug and popped a mold off of it he could legally sell it. A person would have to get an International patent and then you are really talking money and in this hobby noone could afford that.
Just thought would explain why i said 10%
Joe
I was plant manager of a bassboat factory and we used other peoples boats and altered them for a design we were interested in IE we had only bassboats and wanted a family boat too to widen out sales base so we used another companies fish and ski and all that the law required of us was to change the design by 10% OVERALL which isnt too hard to do. that is why I know for a fact that is what it is is because I had dealt with it for about 12 years and had discussed certain things with our patent lawyer. Corporate business like that can afford patents rc guys usually arent going to spend the thousands on a patent to cover their glass fuses that is why most people dont need to worry about them. Another important point about patents is if you get a US patent it isnt covered or recognized outside the US thus if a person in the UK bought a glass fuse from a US guy that had a patent on it and then used the fuse for a plug and popped a mold off of it he could legally sell it. A person would have to get an International patent and then you are really talking money and in this hobby noone could afford that.
Just thought would explain why i said 10%
Joe
12-23-2002, 11:23 PM
#96
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I'm with Joe...You guys may find it interesting to know that the new "short kit" that Walt Moucha is selling, of the 120 inch SBD Dauntless, is, in fact, a set of enlarged Ziroli plans that he has enlarged. That is what you get with the short kit....a set of enlarged Ziroli plans. He just wiped off the Ziroli name.
12-24-2002, 12:07 AM
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F4u5:
Maybe Walt Moucha is paying a royalty to Ziroli? Or maybe his name should be Walt Moocher?
How's your big Corsair coming? Haven't seen a new post for a while.
Legal design or purloined, twins have two engines joined.
Bill.
Maybe Walt Moucha is paying a royalty to Ziroli? Or maybe his name should be Walt Moocher?
How's your big Corsair coming? Haven't seen a new post for a while.
Legal design or purloined, twins have two engines joined.
Bill.
12-24-2002, 01:10 AM
#98
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Originally posted by William Robison
EZ:
Of course you're right, I also know some nice ones, not all lawyers are sleaze. I even know a doctor who is more interested in medicine than money!
But consider. If the lawyers had not tangled things up, we wouldn't need all those tangled laws and law books. And the lawyers maintain the tangle to ensure their continuing livelihood.
The lawyers, liberals, and other pink types are trying to remove them from the public eye, but the "Ten Commandments" are sufficient laws for a decent, reasonable, honorable society.
Then we ask a lawyer to define "Thou shalt not steal" and we end up with this thread on copyrights.
Doctor, Lawyer. Indian Chief.
. Which one of the three is not a thief?
Bill.
EZ:
Of course you're right, I also know some nice ones, not all lawyers are sleaze. I even know a doctor who is more interested in medicine than money!
But consider. If the lawyers had not tangled things up, we wouldn't need all those tangled laws and law books. And the lawyers maintain the tangle to ensure their continuing livelihood.
The lawyers, liberals, and other pink types are trying to remove them from the public eye, but the "Ten Commandments" are sufficient laws for a decent, reasonable, honorable society.
Then we ask a lawyer to define "Thou shalt not steal" and we end up with this thread on copyrights.
Doctor, Lawyer. Indian Chief.
. Which one of the three is not a thief?
Bill.
Anyway...back to models!
You're lucky you're funny, you know that, Bill?
My Cleveland A-20 plans arrived today. I HAD the originals, plus the printwood, but it turned out they were only 42"(that is the original 3/4" scale size) and I had two sheets of wing and none of fuselage.
Sooooo...John Jaycox, who owns Cleveland Models, had just bought an original Cleveland Thermalier kit from me. I mentioned I needed the A-20, and we did a swap. He did the A-20 at 74", 1/12 scale, for me.
Yes, this is relevant...Cleveland has to be the LEAST copied line of plans...WHY?
Because Ed Packard made it his life's work to defend his designs viciously. Over the top, sometimes. And what was the end result? He was able to preserve the value of the works and sell them for a substantial amount of money to John Jaycox towards the end of his life. And John, rightly so, defends them too. If you ever see anybody knocking off Cleveland stuff, tell John, and he WILL do something about it.
12-24-2002, 02:05 AM
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EZCat:
(1) Don't forget the Damned Demlicans.
(2) My father said he had to laugh - the alternative was crying.
Now to the point. Any person or group unwilling to defend their rights will lose them. Proven over and over in history "The only thing we learn from history, is that we do not learn from history." Think that was old Winnnie Churchill, after Neville Chamberlain gave most of Europe to Adolf Hitler. Churchill, though, whether he learned from history or not, learned by personal experience in the Boer war, and later the fiasco of his attempt to take the Dardanelles in the First War, combined to make him (probably) the greatest leader Great Britain has had, or will ever have.
What do we get? Harry Truman stopped our army at the Rhine, giving a large part of Europe to the Russians which led to the Cold War. Truman did one thing right, he nuked Japan. YES, that was the RIGHT thing to do. Or do you think we should have sacrificed another two million men (according to estimates) to take Japan?
Then Truman wouldn't let MacArthur win in Korea. We are still paying for that.
Eisenhower, at least, held the line.
Kennedy was the major cause of the failure at the Bay of Pigs, denying the counterrevolutionaries the use of their own planes, flown by their own pilots. Again, we're still paying.
Lyndon Johnson torpedoed our troops constantly in Viet Nam.
Jimmy Carter? It is to laugh. A very nice person, but a totally ineffective president.
Then Slick Willie. No comment needed.
Because of our individually ceding our rights by electing the left-wing candidates who promise "Bread and Circuses" we are constantly getting more "Big Brotherism," and losing personal liberties.
At least John Jaycox has a scrotum big enough to fight for what is his.
Is your scrotum big enough for you to do the same? Mine is.
Sorry, I don't feel very funny now, no couplet.
Bill
Originally posted by EASYTIGER
Damned Republocrats. (1)
You're lucky you're funny, you know that, Bill? (2)
Yes, this is relevant...Cleveland has to be the LEAST copied line of plans...WHY?
Because Ed Packard made it his life's work to defend his designs viciously. Over the top, sometimes. And what was the end result? He was able to preserve the value of the works and sell them for a substantial amount of money to John Jaycox towards the end of his life. And John, rightly so, defends them too.
Damned Republocrats. (1)
You're lucky you're funny, you know that, Bill? (2)
Yes, this is relevant...Cleveland has to be the LEAST copied line of plans...WHY?
Because Ed Packard made it his life's work to defend his designs viciously. Over the top, sometimes. And what was the end result? He was able to preserve the value of the works and sell them for a substantial amount of money to John Jaycox towards the end of his life. And John, rightly so, defends them too.
(2) My father said he had to laugh - the alternative was crying.
Now to the point. Any person or group unwilling to defend their rights will lose them. Proven over and over in history "The only thing we learn from history, is that we do not learn from history." Think that was old Winnnie Churchill, after Neville Chamberlain gave most of Europe to Adolf Hitler. Churchill, though, whether he learned from history or not, learned by personal experience in the Boer war, and later the fiasco of his attempt to take the Dardanelles in the First War, combined to make him (probably) the greatest leader Great Britain has had, or will ever have.
What do we get? Harry Truman stopped our army at the Rhine, giving a large part of Europe to the Russians which led to the Cold War. Truman did one thing right, he nuked Japan. YES, that was the RIGHT thing to do. Or do you think we should have sacrificed another two million men (according to estimates) to take Japan?
Then Truman wouldn't let MacArthur win in Korea. We are still paying for that.
Eisenhower, at least, held the line.
Kennedy was the major cause of the failure at the Bay of Pigs, denying the counterrevolutionaries the use of their own planes, flown by their own pilots. Again, we're still paying.
Lyndon Johnson torpedoed our troops constantly in Viet Nam.
Jimmy Carter? It is to laugh. A very nice person, but a totally ineffective president.
Then Slick Willie. No comment needed.
Because of our individually ceding our rights by electing the left-wing candidates who promise "Bread and Circuses" we are constantly getting more "Big Brotherism," and losing personal liberties.
At least John Jaycox has a scrotum big enough to fight for what is his.
Is your scrotum big enough for you to do the same? Mine is.
Sorry, I don't feel very funny now, no couplet.
Bill