The way I look at it, ARFs and composites are almost exact opposites.

ARFs have all the construction done but no detail.

Composites have all the detail done, but none of the construction.

Of course, there's gray area in there too.

I think it's more in keeping with the spirit of SCALE competition to turn a plain wrapper ARF into a bashed and detailed model that meets documentation, than it is to mount formers, ribs, spars and add all the radio stuff to a composite.

I'm not saying one is more or less work than the other. To me, it's a question of the type of work, detailing vs construction.

Finally, I think it's been well established that the Pro Am is primarily a flying competition.

Scott

I'm going to answer your questions (both of them ) in the order in which you asked.

The difference between an ARF and a composite model, are just as many and varied as the difference between a Kit and an ARF. With the ARF, all the sub-assemblies are completed and finished. The wings are built and covered, the fuselage is built and covered, the tail group is built and covered, and the cowl is finished. The landing gear is complete and either installed, or is ready to install, and normally the fuel tank is included. You add your radio gear, add your power plant, and glue the wing halves together, glue on the tail group, install the hinges, and that's about it.

The Kit has been cut by someone before you got it, and most of the time the landing gear is in the box, unless it's a retract set. You punch the parts out, line them up and glue them together. Then you sand all the parts and clean them. Then you cover all the parts. Then you install the tail group, the landing gear, the engine and the radio gear.

The composite kit has the fuselage laid up. The formers have to be glued in the fuselage, and the stiffners too. The wing saddle has to be built and installed. The engine box has to be be built and installed. The tail group has to be built, and the wings too (either sheeted foam, or built up. Sometimes the wings are composite as well as the fuselage, and they must have the control surfaces cut from the mother wing. These control surfaces have to be framed up from the outside (a little different technique). Then all the moulding flash has to be sanded off the parts. You have no idea how long it takes to remove the parting lines from fiberglass without leaving divots. then after all the parts have been sanded, you have to paint on a guide coat that is sanded off. This shows you where all the low spots are as well as the voids and pin holes. After all the voids, pin holes and low spots are filled you get to sand some more. Then you get to prime the entire model, and sand even more. Prime again and sand again, prime again and sand once more. Then you get to start adding the color coats. Once the color coats are on and cured, you start strategically removing some of the finish in selected areas to, "Weather" the finish. After all the detail has been done, you get to reinstall all the radio gear, the retract systems (if required) the engine, the fuel system, and then you have a completed model.

As you can see the Composite models are far removed from an ARF, and in most cases are actually more involved than some kits.

As to whether it is okay for an ARF to compete in Pro-Am, If Frank Tiano wants to make a rule that allows it, it would be okay for you to enter a Hoyt-Clagwell Tractor* in Pro-AM. It is Frank's own Contest. He makes the rules, and can do exactly what he wants to do. The AMA, IMAA, QSAA, FFA, BSA. and the Brownies can't do anything to change it. It is Frank's own contest. He owns it, Lock, Stock and Barrel. You can't make him do, or allow anything that he doesn't want to have at Top Gun. Saying what should be allowed at that event is liike telling me what color to paint my front door.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

* the ficticious brand of tractor that Oliver Wendell Douglas bought from Mr. Haney on Green Acres (1960's Television Sitcom, starring Eddie Albert, Eva Gabor, Pat Butrum and others).

Good answer Stickbuilder. The composits and the kits do build differently but both offer challanges of their own. Some composits require you to build your own bulkheads without templates to go by. Just my 2 Cents
James

Scott,

My Daughter Lives in Northridge. How bout that?

Even if the ARF's were allowed in the top classes, you would never see one win. The outline is never 100% or even close. They would lose too many points in static, that they would never make up for it in flight scores.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Stickbuilder,

I totally agree that the degree of accuracy required by a the planes would rule out and ARF, but they are still a plane and if some (brave or foolish) person wants to try and compete with one, then they should be allowed to? I have built planes from scratch, glass kits, made my own molds and put rivets on for weeks, so I do know the time/effort required. I am just trying to say that an ARF (built by someone else) and a glass fuze kit (built by someone else) are exactly that "built by someone else". This argument probably mostly applies to smaller events, not Top Gun. I seriously doubt that someone invited to Top Gun would be bringing an ARF to try and compete.

You obviously have not been reading the posts. You can fly what you wish to in Pro-AM. It is the classes that require static judging where you can't use an ARF. Regardless of what you think, the only thoughts that count with Top Gun are Franks, and his, happen to agree with mine. By your line of reasoning, I should not be able to utilize a fiberglass cowl that I bought from Stans. It was built by someone else. Just for grins and giggles, here is a cowl from Stan's for the YMF Waco in fifth Scale. This is the first time that one has been available for the YMF. All the others are actually for the UMF and all the ARF's and kits to date have been incorrect in that regard. So if someone brings a so called YMF to a scale contest, and they don't have the correct cowl, then they should lose points.

Oh, the solid white cowl, and the one with the red and gold trim are not the ones from Stan's. It started out as a slick cowl, and the blisters are all hand cut, adhered to the cowl and the radius formed with polyester filler. This cowl represents about 40 hours of hard work, but it is a composite cowl, since it was not hand formed from either wood, metal or plastic.

The dummy radial is built from a hair spray can, balsa, lightweight spackle, aluminum and brass tubing, and wire. The cylinders are from a Top Flight fifth scale 9 cylinder radial kit. Is it Composite, or is it a kit. The cylinders are pre=molded, along with the detail, so I guess it is a composite part as well.

Oh, one other thing, I gave the cowl that the Stan's Fiberglass cowl was made from to a friend, who finished the cowl, and sent it to Stans, so that Brad could make a mold from it. Now what kind of part is it? If damifino (Jay) uses the Stan's cowl on his is it an ARF cowl, since he built the mold plug, or is it scratch built? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Bill : where does my RV-4 arf bas fit into this? Thanks

Shot Who?

I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I know what an RV-4 is, and I know what an ARF is, but what is a bas? If you are talking about the Great Planes RV-4, I don't think that you would get very far in an Scale contest that required you to go through static judging. If you enter a sport scale or Pro-Am event, then it would all depend on how well you can fly the model within the scale envelope. That means that you fly the model through the manuvers that the full scale airplane is certified for. I doubt if the average ARF pilot has really any idea just what the full scale airplane that theirs is a model of can actually do as far as any aerobatics are concerned. Most general aviation airplanes can't do things such as snap rolls, and flat spins. Aerobatic aircraft still have some limitations as far as the, "G-load" is concerned. No full scale airplane can do tail touches and climb-outs (yet). They are getting close to being able to hover, but so far no one has enough engine to do it. Neeley is the closest, or was this past summer. Don't expect to impress the flight judges with your being able to do a rolling circle with something like an RV-4. If the full scale bird won't do it, you should not try it with the model in a scale contest.

Judges for the top level contests are not some Bozo that was picked from the crowd. They have to display the ability to know what they are doing. This applies to both static and flight judges. Look at some of the names in the judging group. Bill Holland is the Chief Judge for Top Gun. Rich Uravitch is the Craftsmanship Judge for Team Scale. Folks, it don't get much better than that.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Sorry I ment the rv-4 arf bash thread in scale rc

I had a look at the thread, and I think that you should do rather well in sport scale or Pro-Am if, as I said above, you fly it within the scale envelope. You would need to be able to provide a published 3 view if you were going to try a higher classification.

Scale contests are not about you competing against someone else. You actually only compete against yourself. You provide a published 3 view and other documentation that is relavant. You must build your plane to the documentation, because you will never find documentation to match what you have built.

If you built an RV-4 that was absolutely a perfect model of an existing plane, and could fly it well, there is no reason that you could not become the winner with a plane such as that. The problem that we see for the most part is sloppy documentation, and a model that disagrees with the 3 view.

I go the extra mile when judging static outline. I normally ask the modeller to orient the model so that I can see the profile that the 3 view shows. I trace the outline that the 3 view shows, paying attention to all the lines, but especially transition points, and cross sections. If the 3 view shows a semi-symmetrical airfoil, and the model has a Clark-Y, guess who just lost some points. The same goes for things such as canopy transition angles, antenna's shape, size and placement. Scale exhaust location and shape get's a lot of folks. Landing gear stance is another area where a lot of people fall short.

I next ask the modeller to orient the model to where I am looking at the head-on view. I will ask them to raise or lower the tail so that the view that I have of the model matches what the 3 view shows. Again I follow the profile of what the 3 view shows vs what I see on the model. Things such as airfoil thickness and tail group thickness get a real good look here.

Finally I ask them to orient the model so that I can look at the model from the top. The same thing happens here. I get to see the control surface shapes, sizes and hing lines. I also get to look at the fairing shapes (especially the wing fairing and Horizontal stab fairings). Transition shapes are important here too. If the 3 view is a split view for the top/bottom, I may ask to see the bottom of the model as well, again checking outline and transition points, landing gear mounts and placement. Remember, I am 15 feet away from the model at all times.

If you think that your model has what it takes, by all means enter it in a local scale contest, and give it a try. You probably won't have to satisfy a judge who knows exactly how to do it, and you might get lucky. You can't just walk in and enter Top Gun. It is an invitational contest, and you have to be asked to enter. Come see it this coming year. The view is worth the climb. No matter how good a model builder you think you are, you will receive a good education in what a scale model should look like. It is a humbling experience for everyone. For the spectator is shows you what is doable. For the contestant, it is for who you are in competition with. for the Judges, it is for these kings of modelling to offer their best for us to pass judgment on. Their Best is far above what the average guy can produce. It is a completely different level. You owe it to yourself to attend at least once. A general warning is in order here. Top Gun is very addictive. If you go once, you will come back.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Thanks for the info Bill!!
Here is a photo of a 1939 Waco YOC project.

If you're ever out here, stop by the Basin!



I'm sure that's true. I'm not trying to advocate ARFs in scale contests. I was just trying to say that I personally, would appreciate the efforts of someone who bashed an ARF and did a lot of detail work more than someone who built a composite and simply relied on the detail that was already molded into the model.

Scott

Not even at the same field….hmmm???!!!

My .15 cents per hour manufactured ARF has Scale time retracts, tail gear retracts, landing lights, slow flaps, scale markings, scale paint, sliding canopy, scale cockpit, scale pilot (with legs and boots), scale size prop (just not 4-blade), gun sights are the right angle even the head set of the pilot plugs into the radio.

There are more details on this plane then many other kits.

Anyhow I build right now the TF 47 kit, which will be almost the same size (81� H9- 85� TF) because of some stuff I would have to much butcher the ARF.

But this is beside the point. I think the effort and the result count not the beginning of the project.

Next year we plan to travel a lot to different events – we take ARF’s too – so I let you know where we going and you can stay home


Anyway happy landings

G-Pete

Darn Pete , that hurts. Nice work on your P47. Seen it in some other threads. Maybe you should start a thread with pics of bashed arfs....before and after pics and just maybe you can change some minds, but I doubt it

Pete,

Nice work!!!!!!!! I will have to post some photos of my Neiuport 17 ARF. Full working cockpit, pilot, machine gun with amo belt, maps, gun in holster and lots more. I love taking and ARF out and blowing peoples minds when you tell them it's an ARF

So, you guys are having all this fun modifying ARFs, which in my mind is a fine thing to do. So with the skills you've developed, what's to keep you from just doing a full build? I'm not saying this because I feel my full build airplanes are better then your ARFs, I'm saying it because building is fun, in my mind more fun then modifying an ARF and the feeling of accomplishment is so much more pleasent when it's done.

something that has not been said here and Pete brings it to light perfectly is that scale contests are such a small part of the hobby . There is areason for that, stress, judging, competitiveness, cliches, attitude and perceptions just to naqme a few. The funflies have taken over and are the true heart of the hobby. Scale contests have become the showcases of the hobby. To find and determine the trends. To see what is hot and what is not. To see and test new products before a huge audience. Funflies are the bread and butter of the hobby and everybody is included, everyone is on the same level (supposedly). The large scale can sit next to the 1/12th scale. Arf next to Barf next to the Top Gun entry. Remeber the IMAA had to change its way of thinking to live on into the future......just an observation

Ram-bro, I can't disagree, Fun flys are very popular! However, they are not what this topic is about. The topic is about scale contests, competition, and what is allowed at them. Although I don't see a tie between the two types of events, I think there might be some kind of link, leading the proponants of ARFs to think they should be able to participate in Scale Contests because of the openess of fun flys! If all you've ever been exposed to are Fun-Flys, why would you think you couldn't participate in a Scale Contest? Many of the people who have posted here seem to express this mentality and really have no idea what a Scale Contest is!

I do not mean only special types of R/Cers can participate in Scale Contests! I beleave anyone can, if they learn the ropes first.

In my case with the RV-4 I hope to have it done in 30 days, the full size one at my local airport to document. and all the design work is done. We spent 16 months designing the Beech Barron 55!! That's a lot of work. this is a nice brake....

I thought I would like to go scale in the late 80s & built a 1/3 scale sopwith pup, I spent over 2 yrs building it, I entered it in the 1989 IMAA Rally of Giants in Odessa TX & found out real fast that I would never be able to compete because I could see right off the bat it was a money game & who knew who & I did not have the money & knew no one . I am not saying that there all like this. I am just saying this one was. I personally build my planes for my own enjoyment not to get a pat on the back from everyone else (And I still do build kits but ARF's have a big place in my hangar now). So I went back to the fun flys. I still have the highest respect for scratch builders & think they should have there event. So let them have it. If you want to go & try to compete or watch GO, If you don't Stay Away. I personally will not be there. See you at the fun flys.

It's kind of like playing any other sport. If you only compete with those who you know that you can beat, you will never become better at it. If you use a scale contest as a learning experience, then you will become a better modeller. Surely, you didn't expect to win your first time out did you? It's not necessarialy a money game. It is a persistance game. You go, you find out that you have a lot to learn, so when you get home, you start correcting things, and you go again. You place a little higher, and go home and do some more stuff. Every time you beat yourself, you learn some more.

As I said earlier, it is virtually impossible to find accurate documentation to match the plane that you have already built. The top performers always collect their documentation first, and then build the model to match that as closely as they can. You are only competing with yourself. Once you have the static part dialed in, then you need to work on your flying. Try to fly the model exactly as the full scale plane would fly the sequence. People tend to over fly the plane, and try to make it do things that the full scale plane could never hope to do. The flight judges grade you on what you tell them that you are about to do with the plane. If you are flying a Sopwith Pup, then you wouldn't attempt a harrier, or a waterfall. People also tend to fly the model too fast. Once you get out of scale speed, nothing that you do in the way of flight manuvers will appear to be correct.

Give scale competition another try. I would guess that your Sopwith was the Balsa USA kit. Anyone who can complete that build successfully, should keep trying. That is not an easy building kit. You had to have something going for you to have been able to do it. Yes, you might have to strip the covering and do it again, or you might need to reframe part of the plane to match your documentation, but that's what scale modelling is all about. Those models that you thought had mega bucks in them, might just have had mega hours invested. A scale event is not like a sport scale contest, nor is it like what you see at the Podunk Hollow flying field. Events such as Top Gun and the ScaleMasters, is where the best (arguably) in the world come to compete. Keep working at it. You can get there, or awfully close. The difference between first and second is normally measured in thousands of a point. These guys are that good. They weren't that good their first try.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Well put Bill!Scale modeling is like a lot of things,if you set your mind to it and work hard and getting better,you probably will.The neat thing about this hobby is that there are a lot of different aspects of it to enjoy.I don't know if I will ever be a good 3-D pilot,but I love to watch the guys who are.Scale planes are probably my biggest interest and I love to see a model that looks just like the real thing.I just finished my first attempt at producing a model that looks like the real one and it makes me won't to learn to build and produce one myself,a good friend was the builder,I did the research and got all the graphics and materials for the project.To each his own,and we should all appreciate the different areas of this great hobby.I think there is definately a place for Pro-am,fun-scale or what ever you call it to get people started and who knows,from there you produce the next master or expert scale builder!Thanks for all your input into this thread Bill,as I told you this morning I have learned a lot from it and it has been very informative.
Joe[8D]

ARC's should be allowed. As I've said before, why should they not be allowed just because they are typically made from wood. If they are/can be made to have an accurate outline they should be just as competive as a kit built plane. The real skill in scale building is more in the finishing of the model and much less in the framing of one.

ARF's do not belong as stated numerous times in other posts.

The bottom line is that all of this fuss is over maybe a couple of models in a contest. I think most modelers who are interested in scale are going to build from a kit or scratch just for thier own challange and enjoyment (frustration!!). We need to accept change and do what is nessary to keep the hobby growing and not discurage new scale modelers.

FYI - I have flown in several contests, so no trashing me for my comments!!

Jeremy

[/quote]

A scale event is not like a sport scale contest, nor is it like what you see at the Podunk Hollow flying field. Events such as Top Gun and the ScaleMasters, is where the best (arguably) in the world come to compete.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
[/quote]


No I did not expect to win, I just expected to have a good time flying & visiting with people. Your statements that you keep using ( Podunk Flying Field ) is the same attitude & impression I received there, (Some - Not all have the attitude that they are better than everyone else). In the 2 days I was there I was able to get in the air 1 time while the people in the CLICK were able to fly multiple times. That is what I was speaking of (some one who knows someone). I will say one more time that I am impressed with what a scratch builder can do. EOD.

I know this doesn't compair to most of the contest thatyou guys enter in but here goes. I attended a scale meet once (still go though) and there were many fine models. But what got me was a hangar 9 P-40 was entered and nothing was done except assembly and installed an engine. And was awarded first place in the sports scale warbirds. I think something was very wrong here cause there were about six to ten other kit built planes there that should of won instead. So it seem too me that it is who you know not who enters. I wouldn't of been so frustrated if the person that entered the plane would of taken and at least removed the covering and did something different frome the cover of the box.