Mode One

ARFs do not directly compete against kit/scratch built models in any contest I am aware of. It's my understanding at TOP GUN, ARFs/ARCs are not allowed to compete what-so-ever. However, I also understand there are ARF/ARC divisions in Scale Masters and at AMA scale contests. If I have any of this wrong, I apologize for not having done all the homework needed.

However, how do you feel about this?

My personal opinon is there should be one venue where the ARF/ARC simply is not welcome and where personal pride, craftsmenship and artistry should take precedence! We are such a Must-Have-It-Now society that I would like to see the other spectrum rewarded for their hard work, so I don't think there should even be divisions allowing them to compete. Yes, ARFs/ARCs can be modifide (bashed) into something far beyond the everyday. However, they still were not framed up by the competitor!

Kmot

My Feedback: (24)

Well, this is an interesting topic and I see a heated debate approaching. In many scale competitions over the last several years, ARF aircraft have indeed been in them and have won top honors. I suppose it depends on a persons definition of ARF. But imho, a completely pre-fabricated composite airframe is just as much an ARF as any other.

The BVM jets, for example. Or the Airworld composite ARFs with the rivets and panel lines molded in. How much more ARF can you get? Yet, these types are bringing home the trophies.

That's the way it was done up till 20 years ago, maybe less. But I agree with you completely.

masteromodels

My Feedback: (11)

I'AM PRETTY SHORE IN TOP GUN PRO AM SPORT OR AMATURE YOU CAN ENTER AN ARF. JUST NEED A PICTURE THAT THE PLANE EXISTED.


THANKS BOB

hornplayer99

Here is an ARF that won at Top Gun this year. I guess it took 100 hours to paint this one.

Stickbuilder

That is the main reason that I only Participate at Top Gun. Not as a competitor, but as a Judge. It torques me off to no end to see someone taking credit for the work that was done by others. You will have a fight on your hands here, and you will get all the, "You didn't make your engine, and you didn't make your own glue, and your didn't grow your own Balsa tree, you didn't build your house, and you didn't make your car, motorcycle, boat", ad nauseum, but these are the lame arguments that are put forth by those who either can't or won't build.

ARF's have a definite place within our hobby, but a scale model contest is not (in my opinion) one of them. The scale contests should still be for the modellers who have paid their dues, and have expended the time to make a model airplane with their own hands. I have mixed emotions concerning the Composite models. While it's true that a lot of work is done for you, there is still more than fastening some sub-assemblies together. It is not like taking a pile of planks and sticks and winding up with a scale model airplane.

If I were training someone to fly for the first time, I would advise them to get an ARF trainer, since the level of experience is not there to enable them to end up with a straight and true model. You can get that in an ARF.

I have the same feelings about someone buying a finished model from another builder and trying to pass it off as his own. Several years ago, I built, detailed and trim flew an exact scale model. I let a man that I met at a fly-in, talk me into selling the plane to him. A couple of years later, I ran into him at another contest in another state, where he had scored very high in the static portion of the competition.....with the model that I had sold him. This event did require the entrant to sign the Builder of the Model declaration. Several people were in his tent, asking questions about the model, and he was holding forth with all kinds of answers (mostly wrong). When I asked him how the plane that I had built was holding up for him, he turned several shades of red, and the next thing that I knew, he had his tent down, the plane in the trailer, and was gone. As far as I am concerned, that is thievery. plain and simple. Taking someone elses work, and claiming it as your own is wrong, and illegal (look up the definition of plagerism).

As I said, I hope you can dodge all the slings and arrows that will be thrown here, because the ARF Brigade will hit as hard and heavy as the builders.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

jmohn

Why not let ARFs compete. What's the difference if some guy pays a builder to make his "Top Gun" plane and then goes on to fly the plane and win? It's just more difficult for most ARFs to win since they are often not built to "scale". Many nice ARFs can be made to look very scale and compete with any kit. Here are two nice ARFs that could compete and do fine:

abufletcher

I agree that buying a model built by another modelers is, in principle, no different from buying an ARF from the local hobby shop. You just get a nicer product. Personally, I'm always glad to see a nice looking model no matter how it came to be produced. Nevertheless, for me Top Gun will always be about "designer class" and all the rest is just window dressing.

Mode One

Yes, I have stated my opinion! However, all it is, is MY opinion and the world never has paid much homage (let alone even attention) to what I think!

I have ARFs, I like them and they certainly have a place in my R/C hobby. I also build from scratch and build kit airplanes and love this aspect of the hobby more then the flying! However, I just feel there should be one venue in the hobby where the "builder of the model" is King! Traditionally, this has been scale, so I ask why can't this continue?

pahtreek

My Feedback: (1)

BUY IT or have it built for you... = expensive TOY.
Build it yourself..... then it's a MODEL.

Why else do so many newbies to this hobby get bored so easily and quit? I will tell you the lamest, laziest excuse I am sooooo sick of: "I just dont have the time..." Who does??? I have 3 kids, and two jobs. But I can find 3 or 4 hours PER WEEK to work on my planes! -Funny how they have time to spend hours upon hours researching their next ARF, plus the 50+ hours to put it together, and are out at the field 5 times a week flying...lol
Just be honest, you want to play with a toy that you bought.

It's just my opinion....like my drill sergent used to say...opinions are like as#hol#s, everyone has one and they all stink.

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Since the advent of the high dollar composite structured models with molded in rivets and panel lines has been accepted into the world of Top Gun and Scale Masters, I think someone who takes a run-of-the-mill ARF and details it by adding their own rivets and panel lines, or rib tapes and stitching, modifying the outline to bring it closer to true scale, re-covering it with a prototypical cover (read that as tearing off the MonoKote and putting real fabric on it) should have an equal consideration in a head-to-head competition. Otherwise, require the guys who bring the composite planes to lay up their own carbon fiber fuses and wing sections if they want to equally compete with the guys who built their plane from sticks. If the ARF'er can make a silk purse from a sow's ear, he should be allowed to put it up equally against the designer stuff.

What I see as most unfair in competition is the one who hires out his entire build and then competes with the finished product as his own, even though it's stated he didn't build it. That's like buying a brand new Ferrari and competing against the guys who restored a junker and did the work themselves. The big pockets tend to have the advantage over the shoestring builders regardless of who has the greater talent, and I think the whole thing deteriorates to ego tripping.

Stickbuilder

Ken,

Top Gun does have the Builder of the Model Rule. In Team Scale both parties must be there with the model. The builder and the pilot. It is not, repeat, NOT permissable for anyone to bring a model that he did not build. Period. In team scale, the builder must sign the B.O.M. Statement. His pilot must do the flying sequences, and still must point well enough to score high enough to place in the event. You really need to attend once to be able to appreciate the caliber of model that is there. The best ARF in the world won't place high enough in the static scoring to enable the pilot to overcome that low score. Static scores just simply count for too much to be able to be overcome. There is not one 3-D model airplane that could begin to make the grade when it comes to scale outline. The control surfaces would kill the points for the model. The scale surface detail is not there, and the wing plan for the majority of them would rob them of too many points.

I know these things to be factual. If you ever bother to enter Top Gun in the Team Scale category, you will meet me, Face to face. I Judge Scale Outline for Team Scale. I see them all, and the ARF's just don't have it (yet). Truth be known, they probably never will, since that level of construction would run the model into the full scale price point. You can't buy your way into Top Gun. You have to earn it.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Dr1Driver

Isn't there a "craftsmanship" section in the judging? Then the ARF with all the details molded in would never stand a chance of winning. I believe there's also a "builder of the model" section, too. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe the question that's being asked is, "How much manufacturer-completed detail should be allowed?" IMO, not much. A scale outline, and scale details such as GTM provides (they must be assembled and painted) are about as much as should be accepted.

It's a sticky question and a nice skinny fence to be walked by the promoters and judges of scale contests.

Dr.1

HO-229

The dictionary defines a scratch builder as…. (Per WikipediA)


Scratch building is the process of building a model from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, 'kit-bashing' or buying it pre-assembled.

Scratch building is easiest if original plans or other technical drawings of the subject exist; however, many models have been built from photographs by measuring a known object in the photograph and extrapolating the rest of the dimensions. The necessary parts are then fashioned out of a suitable material, such as wood, plastic, plaster, clay, metal, Polymer clay, or even paper, and then assembled. Some purists consider a model not to be truly scratchbuilt unless all of the parts were made from raw materials. However most modellers would consider a model including commercial detail parts as scratchbuilt.

The reasons hobbyists scratchbuild may vary. Often a desired model is unavailable in kit form in the desired scale, or entirely nonexistent. Sometimes the hobbyist may be dissatisfied with the accuracy or detail of kits that are available. Other times a hobbyist will opt to scratchbuild simply for the challenge. Less frequently a hobbyist will scratchbuild out of economy, as sometimes the raw materials cost less than a packaged commercial kit.



Techniques
Most hobbyists develop their skills by building kits, then progress to kitbashing, where various kits are combined to create a unique model before attempting to scratchbuild. Sometimes scratchbuilders utilize discarded parts of other models or toys, with or without modification, either in order to speed up the building process or to allow the process to continue in spite of certain parts being difficult to make. Some companies sell parts that are of little use to anyone but scratchbuilders.

Building stock, in whichever material, can be plain sheets, strips, bars, tubes, rods, or even structural shapes such as L or T girders - stock can also be embossed or textured to replicate a certain prototype material (such as plastic sheet embossed with grooves to mimic a scale brick wall).

For example, to scratch-build a small board fence, the modeler could use plastic rod stock to form the vertical posts, then use plastic bar stock to form horizontal rails affixed to the posts, lay plastic strip stock vertically on the horizontal rails (perhaps 'distressed' with a wire brush to mimic wood grain, or by using thin strips of actual wood), trimming the top and bottoms of the strips to be even, adding details like nail holes (using a small pin), and then finishing and weathering (making a model look like it has been used via dust, dirt, stains, and wear).

Plastic is the favourite material of many scratch-builders because of the ease in which it may be cut, shaped, glued, and finished.

There are as many ways of scratch-building models as there are modelers, but generally the modeler obtains plans of a prototype, or designs his own, transfers these plans to paper or other material as patterns (much easier since the arrival of household computer printers and copiers), and uses these patterns to cut, trim and affix the stock together to form the model. Finishing work (such as sanding and polishing, painting, weathering, distressing by forming dents and rust, dust, etc.) is done to complete the model and (hopefully) bring it to a life-like state.



I do not belong to any RC organization or compete in any sanctioned event/s, but I think some ethical issues exist if one has a kit/other person build the model that claims scratch built status

Stickbuilder

What is the difference???? Have you been asleep the whole time? The difference is that you did not build the ARF. To compete in the top Scale contests, you must sign a builder of the model declaration. In other words, the ARF by definition fails to meet that requirement. You didn't build it, why would you expect to compete with it. It's not a race car, and it's not a race boat, and it's not a race full scale airplane. It's a Scale model. Look up the definition of the word, Model. That should explain it.

I have seen in person, and in photo's, some very nice modified ARF's. Ken Hodges Waco comes to mind. There is no denying that Ken spent more time rebuilding the ARF than he might have spent building from scratch. The fact remains, and I consider Ken a good friend, that it's an ARF. It is modified all to heck and back, but he didn't frame the plane up. I wouldn't mind seeing his plane in competition, but it still does not meet the letter of the rule.

It's all about fair, and it's not fair for you to bring a factory built plane to compete against the homemade bunch.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Stickbuilder

If you think that those 2 ARF's are Top Gun material, may I introduce you to reality? This is a Top Gun Contender. Those Ain't.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Stickbuilder

Yes, there is a craftsmanship judge. In Team Scale that person is Rich Uravitch. None better.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Ron S

My Feedback: (2)

I guess whether it's right or wrong, depends on how/if the contest director applies the Builder Of the Model rule. Perhaps ARFs in scale contests can fairly compete in team scale, since there's the Flier/Owner, then the Builder - a Chinese* dude stamping out the airframes on an assembly line.

*Feel free to replace Chinese with any other nationality, of course. No offense intended.

The hobby has changed over the last 10 or so years, with ARF's proliferation, and the focus now is how to get the model in the air faster. Many ARFs are less costly than similar kits. But I'd think without keeping ARFs separated somehow, there's less incentive to compete with a model that has been built by hand, rib by rib, and bulkhead by bulkhead... Aerobatics contests rewards fliers that are dedicated to constant trimming, and practicing flying with their model's precise maneuvers. It seems to me scale contests are made to reward people that have spent their time researching, building, and detailing their models, then flying them.

And I agree with the lame lack of time excuse - everyone gets 24 hours in a day, no more, no less.

Those are my opinions, however flawed they may appear!

Stickbuilder

Okay, Let's have a look at a couple of Team Scale entries, and then see if you still stand by your statement.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Ron S

My Feedback: (2)

I'd say the current crop of ARFs would be crushed by the models in those pics - and deservedly so! My team scale comment had a winky face next to it.

gjmjoe017

My Feedback: (1)

Bill,I agree with you that for a Top Gun calaiber scale contest it shoud be kit or scratch built and in most cases will have to be to get the results it taks to win one of those competitions.My Bulldog II as you know is a kit bashed ARF that has been modified and made to be a pretty good "Fun Scale"plane.I know Mint Julipe has that catergory and I might take mine there and will make it clear that Mike Stellern did all the work,while I did all the reasearch and knew how all the mods were to be done and all the scale detail.I have to say,we might as well have scratch built it,with the amount of time we put into it,but I'm just as proud of it as if we did.But again for the scale purist,I do agree that it should be built from the ground up.
Joe McCullar
Bulldog Brotherhood
#6

hornplayer99

It appears that Top Gun is being used to Advertise ARF's now days. Just go to Air World's site and you will see the pictures. The Web site speaks for itself:
Our model, built to the scale of 1:4 using original factory drawings and data, reproduces in detail all the prominant covers, panels, hinge lines, rivets and fasteners. The canopy slides open to the rear in a scale manner allowing an unobstructed view into the complete cockpit interior which includes the side panels, seat, and instrument panel. The retractable landing gear wells and mounting hardpoints are precisely factory pre-installed."
It would take anyone years to do all this from scratch. All you have to do is paint by the numbers. I know there is more to it, but anyone can put an ARF together.

Ed

Maybe that's the key right there. Establish a criteria that the " Craftmanship Judge(s) " should work to. And maybe a small team of 3 Craftsmanship judges, giving each entry a quick once-over would be better.

ARF's, plastic covered, and factory produced composite models should be awarded minimum points !

> Jim

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

I think the arf should be put a finishing and bashing class. A talent in itself but not enough. Theres really no building involved, just assembly. From BVM to Yellow to Joe Blows prefabs.

I would rather place lower with my model than win with someones prefab model. I would view an arf win as hollow and without merit. I would have more respect for the non winning hand built models and their builders.


Its like custom made furniture and Ikea.

Steve

TFF

Top Gun should not be the benchmark for scale contests as it is really an exibition run like a contest just like the old TOC. It is a cool event, but it has hurt the regular scale builder because he has the opinion that it is all or nothing. What is sad is all the potential planes out there that are not put in contests because the owner does not think it is good enough. I took my Pica Jungmaster to the Mint Julep last spring and put it in the Sportsman class. It is just a weekend plane and up close it is really an average plane, but I got high static score. [X(]Most of the planes in the class were nicer than mine, but I understood the documentation process some and I think this is where I came out ahead. I nosed over on my first TO so I was out of the running for the rest of the contest but it was the most fun I had had in RC in a long time.

Wayne22

My Feedback: (2)

The sad reality is that the numbers of these dedicated souls is dwindling to the point where in many areas there is not enough of them to even hold a contest. Scalemasters allows ARF's to compete in Funscale but not in EXPERT or TEAM. It is a great entry point for bringing new blood into the scale arena... sure, you can compete with your Hanger 9 ARF, but everyone aspires to that Scratch built FW-190 that went on to win......maybe one or two newbies will be inspired enough to start building their own in a year or two....... But, if they are never exposed, or have the opportunity to fly in a scale competion, they will never, ever get the motivation to scratch build a scale model on their own.