You all need to get building!....lol

t_burley, that plane is amazing!! I mean, it's amazing. I have no doubt that I could never model a plane nearly that well. Every time I see a plane that well done, I'm amazed at the time, skill, and effort it takes to do something like that. Keep modeling!!

This thread sounds like the 'discussions' we have at scale society meetings. There are two types of competition scale modellers, those that can get their act together & be competitive & those that imagine that they can be.

The second type attend meetings & campaign to drop the standard so they may have a chance & complain that the same old people always win.

The result? If they bother to turn up at the new 'simple contest' (few do!) they are still not competitive, their engines don't run properly, their wheels fall off - they finish last (because they deserve to) complain about the judges/weather/field/anything & we never see them again. And it all goes quiet, things get back to normal & things run smoothly until the next bunch of dreamers turn up & it all starts over again.

What they fail to realise is that the competitive guys are competitive because they work harder to achieve their goal. All the competitive guys started flying *****ty models too but stuck with it. Their next model was a bit less *****ty & so on they went, learning, competing & practicing. The 'Elite' scale modellers are at the top for one reason. Like all forms of competition they work harder than the others & reap the rewards.

Let the ARF's compete, sure. But if they only put in half the work they should be rewarded accordingly. - John.

Haven't the highly fabircated composite Jets been winning at these events for over 10 years now. Am I missing something ? Whats new about this topic , the propeller ?

Typical, PF, you come to the party late, and complain cause everyone is already drunk. The Jets have been winning, because the guys like Bob Violett have all their Doo Doo in one sock. They have built a near perfect model of the real thing, and their piloting skills are second to none. They have their routines nailed. Never a deviation. Each flight is just exactly like the last one. They practice, practice, and practice some more. In case you missed it, there is only one Mr, Top Gun each year. It is the guy who did it all better than anyone else. If you left your, "A-Game", at home, you just got left way behind.

The nice thing about Scale Contests is that there is a winner. We don't have a, "FEEL GOOD", event where everyone gets a meaningless trophy. This is not a bunch of 5 year olds who's Moms fear that they will have their little sensabilities injured if they are introduced to the real world, where there are winner's and losers.

This part of the hobby is all about, "I can do it better than you, or anyone else". If you can't do it better than someone else is doing it, why would you want to bring something that someone else built, and try to compete with it? It's like a teenager showing off in his big brother's Corvette. Everyone know's it ain't his, so where is the thrill? If you get your jollies with something that someone else built, then more power to you. Just remember this is another kind of ball game. One with rules and stuff. Play by the rules that are in place, or don't play. They won't change them just cause you want them to.

Pilotfighter, this is not all directed at you, you just stepped in and got into the line of fire.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Dino,

I enjoyed watching your FW at Top Gun this year. I thought that Curry's T-34 did a good job as well. Watching Dave with the Big "Cat" was a real trip. That radial was singing a nice tune. I will look forward to seeing you this next year. You can find me under the tent, at the table for Team Scale. Stop by and say Hi. I'm the old fart who likes to grab a couple of pictures of the planes that I have just finished Judging. In case you didn't notice, a lot of the pics were taken while the planes were on the Judging Table.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

here are a few more. All work and no play ain't in the rule book.

What do you count as a "pre-built sub-assembly?" The BVM 100 kit looks like it has plenty of semi-finished sub-assemblies to me.

http://www.bvmjets.com/Pages/kits/f-100%20site.htm

Just for the record in this discussion/debate/ARF-bashing thread, I'm perfectly happy to see great looking ARF's (or "composites" completely finished at the factory like the FW-190) competing in the ProAm category. More thrills for the audience who make the trip -- and more experience for the pilots. Sound like a win-win situation to me.

ABU,

By a pre-built sub assembly, I am referring to the wing being finished, covered, and/or painted, or wrapped in a plastic bread sack, and ready to be joined to the other wing panel and the aileron/flap servo's installed. You know full well what I am referencing, and I know you well enough to know that you do. The BVM is in no way an ARF. It is a composite model that requries several hundred hours to turn into a comptitive model. There is a big difference between Semi-finished, and finished. If you want to argue semantics, find another sucker, cause I ain't buying in.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Don, I think (hope) your joking? This isn't an ARF bashing thread. When I started the thread, I said I have ARFs an am appreciative of them and I admit they seem to be here to stay.

The rest of this is not addressed to Abufletcher.

The thread was intended to be about appreciating the skills/craftsmanship/abilities of the people who BUILD scale model airplanes for the love of it and for competition.

I've learned some things here:
1). It is generally felt that the builder is a dying breed, therefore to keep interest in scale contests and scale airplanes, ARFs have to accommodated. This is a sad statement on the hobby! It means the most valued attributes of this activity: skill/craftsmanship/ability/perseverance, are meaningless to many of the next generation of R/Cers!

2). Some of the kits considered ARFs by the uneducated (myself included) still take hundreds of hours to complete.

My wish is to promote the building aspect of R/C airplanes. I have always enjoyed building models. I'm looking forward to a long session down in the shop today, doing this. I don't understand people who do not enjoy building, sorry! There is no other excuss that holds water (in my opinion) other then you don't care for it. The time thing, although possibly true for some is unbelieveable to me, as we make time to do the things we want to do.

Explain to us, where on "God's Green Earth" it is a: "product of todays society where everyone is treated equally"!?!? I don't live in this place and I can assure you, you don't live there either!

"So whats the real issue here"? The real issue here is: If you want the accolades, you need to put in the hard work it takes to get them!

I suppose if we think of ARF as "almost ready to fly" then composite kits certainly don't count. And I'm pretty sure doing a good job on one of Bob's jet kits takes more work (and skills) than I've put into my Snipe! On the other hand, if we read it as "Almost Ready to Finish" then maybe they are ARFs.

But as they say (mostly quoting Platt) once a model is completely framed up, it's just about half finished. Jets have a lot more "mechanicals" than simple WWI models (for example) so there's a lot of serious technical stuff. But I'd say they are more "assembled" than "built." But then once the kit is all in one piece there's a ton of work to get a decent looking finish. All I have to do is slap on a few coats of PC10 and hand paint some roundels. Compare that with doing the heat discolorations in the simulated titanium skin on the tail of an F-100. But then that's more like what the "plastic boys" do.

As for arguing semantics, well, that's pretty unavoidable in my line of work.

Dr. Donald Carroll
Department of Language and Culture

I understand your point, My Daughter is also a Professor of Languages. She is currently working in Spain for a couple of years, and then will come back and teach in California (probably at CSUN). She and I argue semantics constantly as well. Trust me on this one. The Composite models just have the skin detain done. They are not framed out at all, nor are they sub-assemblies. You really should have a close look at them. I would not care to do one. I can do one of my Waco's in less time than it takes them.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

I have been reading the previous 5 pages with extreme interest and I must admit I am learning a lot! May I share with you what I have learned?
Thanks.
First I have learned that many of the folks submitting posts in a particular thread have not a clue what the thread is really about. That probably comes from them not reading the entire thread before them.
Second, I am certain that in this partuicular thread, many of the folks participating have NEVER entered a scale contest of any type. It is obvious because IF they had, they wouldn't be making such ridiculojus comments or posing such incredibly silly questions. For that I do not fault them, but please guys, if you don't know what you are talkiing about, you really shouldn't be making such comments or suggestions. And last, now please let me get this right, the AMA has a class of competition called PATTERN. It features sseveral sub-divisions, based upon the skill level of the pilot. It is only a flying contest, no points are awarded for fidelty to scale, since Pattern models are NOT scale models. SO, you see, it's a lot like Pro-Am. Pro-AM at Top Gun was initiated to give Patern type guys a chance to see what scale is all about. They bring their model, regardless of who built it, just like in Pattern, and fly. PERIOD. They can buy the model from a friend, a previous competitor, a hobby shop or from Captain Kangaroo, nobody cares, just like in Pattern! AFTER they fly Pro-Am and like it, they MAY decide to move over to the EXPERT class, where they must actually BUILD and FINISH their own model. Then they get judged on its appearance. Now,if there is anybody out there left that does not understand this, I am truly sorry........................for Them!
Don't you just love this hobby??
FT

Gee, I've always been told FT is an arrogant know it-all so and so, and he just proved it.

Dr.1

Mode one. The society of today is all about making sure no ne is offended, its about being politically correct, its about no child left behind, its about everyone getting a trophy or not keeping score. I am sure you have seen and hears this even up there in the great white north......All I am trying to say is once you start to water down and mince words and try to treat everyone and everything equally, it doesnt strengthen the hobby/society it weakens it. You know in the bible it says the poor willalways be among us. You help who you can and who can receive it. Arfs have a place in our hobby/scale competitions and if you try to level the playing field to allow them to compete with the big boys you will cheapen the competition. Arfs have a platform...funscale. Deal with it. Stop trying to bring us down to that level and work and learn your way up to be a Top Gun competitor. You know someone has to be a DR. and someone has to collect the trash in society and get paid accordingly........Boy do I ramble sometimes but hopefully it makes some sense

I've read most of the postings here and I agree and also disagree with some. I do have an arc that I'm assembling too and for the most part I plan on adding some of my own scale detail. But yes it is an arc and it will always be an arc. But to see how close it comes to the full scale plane is fun for me and yes if I can compete with others just to see what they have to contribute to the hobby is fine with me. This is just a stepping stone and hopefully a good stepping stone for me to get to a final goal to maybe someday enter into a more scale event just to see what I have to learn to compete next time. I'm just a fly wanting to be a bee but have a long way to go. I have now two Wing B-25s and I plan on trying to get both planes fully assembled and hopefully detailed to my satisfaction. And hopefully they will be able to compete someday in a scale event. Just being there and at least qualifying will be just enough for me.

Ram-bro, Without clarification (as you have provided above) you ARE hard to understand! You seemed to present your point of view as feeling ARFs should be allowed to compete head to head with the Big Dogs.

Well said Frank.

It does get tiresome having to sift through the drivel to get to the gist of the situation.

No matter which generation you belong to there are a bunch that try to bring things to the lowest common denominator rather than recognize that they are not in a position to compete.

I fly scale and heavy iron but I will always be a middle of the roader. However, I recognize this and refrain from trying to drag the superior ones backwards so that I might feel better about my standing.

Your Topgun series has been one of the bright lights for way above average scale builders and fliers. Thanks for providing a venue for the group that has the where with all and talent to shine in the scale arena.

I've been told that too! But everything he has said on this thread makes sense to me.

Exactly. Even if they did not have to fly the plane & did not have to build it they would still not be competitive because they would probably turn up on the wrong day. - John.

Sounds as though you have no mirrors in your house. There is nothing arrogant about Frank at all. He is far from being a know it all, but when it comes to the Top Gun event, he actually does know it all. It's his contest, and he makes the rules. Any Questions? By the way, your post is way out of line. You don't know the man, and you are making judgments concerning him. You owe him an apology.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Sorry george 4 years 9 months UGG!!!

Ditto to what John stated about Frank's posting. And for what John himself wrote to. (and Stickbuilder too)

Guys, its the end of the week. This thread has gone on for 5 pages. I for one am getting the feeling this is now nothing more than beating a dead horse. Does anybody else think the same on this issue?

Sorry for the delay Mode One, I had to go back thru the whole thread again to see if I was the only 'Don' you were referring to. You were not bashing the ARFs, others were. If I made a mistake and lumped you into the "others" column, I offer my public, and humble apoliges here and now.

I wondered what the two of you had up your sleeves!

Can't wait to see the Bear. I saw the TU-4AEW (and photographed it) at Scale Masters 2006.

David

Between Don, Bob, and Dave, I think we've got at least half of all scale RC builders (and hobby shop employees) covered!

...and, yeah, I think this thread has just about run its course.