I know this has probably been touched on many times in past threads. However when I did a search in this forum, I really could not find what I was looking for. Here are my questions:

1) What is a good CAD program, other than AutoCad if there is an alternative, that I can completely design or redesign a large RC plane with?

2) Is there a method of scanning in a 3 view drawing or original set of plans into a particular file format and then be able to modify them with CAD? I have heard the term vectoring but am not sure what that relates to.

3) Can a CAD program be set up with wood stock sizes to be used throughout the drawing such as former or bulkhead widths, stringers, wing spars, etc?

4) My goal is to enlarge a set of plans or 3 views and make all needed and/or wanted changes in scale, design, and stock sizes.

Any information or pointing me to some other threads would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Jay

Check Google for a program called "Raster to Vector" or R2V. With it you can convert the scanned images (plans) from a Raster Image (like .bmp) into a 'Vector' graphic that Autocad, etc use.

Buy the shareware version of R2V, it is the best I have found for this purpose so far - never found any good freeware

Dennis

I don't want to sound negative toward GlennisAircraft, but if I were you, I wouldn't waste your time on the Raster to Vector programs. I've tried just about every once I can find and I find that it's just much simpler to scan the file in, insert it into your CAD program and trace over it. Scanned files tend to have so many empty spots in the lines that you'll spend just about as much time fixing the holes as you would tracing it to begin with.

You asked what vectoring is, that's basically a term that CAD people use to say that they are converting a raster image to a vector image so that it can be plotted out (and possibly cut with laser).

As for the AutoCAD alternative, I'm sure many people here will give you good ideas on those. I'm lucky in that I use AutoCAD in my every day work life, so I've never messed with another program.

Beardking is right. tracing is probably one of teh better ways to go..

Raster images are usually made up of colourd blocks; pixels. While vectors are lines drawn from a data base with two end points; coordinates, hence a vector..

CAD programs can be set up with the wood sizes, but it'll be better to just remeber them. Typically, you'll be making three dwgs, that all tie together: a top view, a side view, and possibly a front view. that is, a 2D drawing of teh plane. Other views will be created as teh work progresses.. Most CAD programs have an 'Offset' function, that offsets (copies) a line /object a certian amount. So, you'll draw the center lines for ribs, stringers, spars, etc.. then jsut offset them as required. (tip: work on a separate layer, so your center lines are on one layer, and the 'wood' is on another..) Everything needs to be drawn....

Ideally, you'll also have Excell or a pad of paper beside you and start a parts list.

I'm designing a plane from scratch right now and I'm using AutoCAD 2004. I wish more people had access to it, but there are many other CAD programs out there you can use just as well for what you are describing. My plan is coming together nicely. I figured out how I wanted the thing to look and started picking points.
In your case, I would say scanning is the way to go. While you are at it, get a copy made first, then setup some reference points on the copy so you don't mess up your original plans. The hardest part about CAD is picking points if you don't know where they are. The more detailed the part you are drawing, the more points you will have to pick. Curves are diabolical... Trim, Extend, Offset, Move, Rotate and Mirror are your friend. Learn them and use them. They will same you more time then any other commands. OSNAPS are equally good and bad. Get used to turning them on and off. You'll find you want to leave about three or four of them on almost all the time, but there will always be an occasion where you'll only want one to be on. Layers are also your friend. Use them all the time. I have a layer for each group of things I'm working on (i.e., Ribs, Leading Edge, Flaps, Ailerons...) which lets me hide these parts to make viewing and drawing much easier. You should also like either beer or coffee. Beer or coffee makes everything better, in moderation of course.

I second the vote for needing beer. I could (and do) do without coffee.

I like both too much. At least I can have one at work.

I do have an AutoCAD question for you though. Two actually...

1: I am having issues extruding airfoils with tapers. I can extrude them woth no taper just fine, but they get all funny shaped when I try to use a taper. Any ideas?
2: I can get the ribs, spars and such done in 3D, but I have no idea how to start using wireframes to cover the wings and stabs. How do you recomend I start liking and using wireframe models?

Unfortunately, SeditiousCanary, you are asking about a wonderful feature of autocad that I have absolutely no clue about. As much as I'd like to learn 3d, I have very little use for it at work and even less use for it at home so I just have not put forth the effort to learn any of it. Basically, what I do right now is convert paper plans to CAD plans for use by a laser cutter. One of these days when I venture into the actual designing aspect, I will probably have to learn 3d.
So, to make a very long answer a little short, sorry, no help here buddy. ;-)

Laser cutting?

That's helpful. What would the setup costs be for cutting a kit? I don't have an idea of how many parts need to be cut yet, so I know you can't tell me much other then setup and maybe a rough idea for a kit.

Man, I'm just being absolutely no help to you today. When I get laser cutting done, I normally get it done by the guy that runs [link=http://www.lazerlizard.com]this[/link] website. I don't have my own setup (would be nice though). Give him an email, he does great work and he works directly from AutoCAD drawings, and he has pretty good prices as well.

Jay, TurboCAD Learning Edition will do just about anything you want (2D) and is free at http://www.al-ki.com/tcad/download.php#HatchPatterns The manuals are a free .pdf download as well.

Get the program loaded, download some free plan .dxfs and play around with scaling and modifying to your heart's desire. It'll cost you nothing but time!

Thanks for the information today guys. I did install the TurboCad software and have started importing some free plans just to see what they look like. What I am really wanting to do is either from some 3-view drawings or from plans already available is design a 1/4 scale Corsair. I thought maybe scanning in some Ziroli or Meister plans and enlarging them. After that make all of the scale outline changes, personal dislike changes, and wood sizes etc. Any tips on doing something like that?

Thanks Again.

Wow, 1/4 scale Corsair! Not sure how to scan in Ziroli plans....that's too big to go in my little scanner. I'm mostly a 1/2A guy.

There's a free Corsair .dxf download at http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/slmohr/rcplan6.htm I'm sure there are others on the web as well.

Good Luck!

That would be no problem. Just draw each view one at a time. Your real challenge will be finding good Front, Top and Right side views to do it. I'd say start with books and websites which have the original plans on them, then use the contours to figure out where to put stuff. Oddly, silhouette are usually more helpful then anything else. Getting mired down in details is always a danger. Cross sections are the most helpful. Dr. Selig's website lists the airfoils for darn near every plane ever made, so that shouldn't be hard at all. I'd start by plotting out where certain things are, like the center line of the fuse, leading edge, cockpit, landing gear and so on, then fill in the details.

You are wrong in in one manner in that this subject has been brought up NUMEROUS times at this forum. Again, what has been termed and questioned, bears little help in solving anything as your basic background has not been indicated. You are not looking hard enough at the end product, but a way to get to any possible solution. There are a few initial items to be resolved before going too far. We need to know how much hand drafting experience you have, any trade school quality computer drafting, how familiar are you with the basic computer (and Windows) operating system and their plug-in components. All of which have a bearing upon the type of quality or end result that can be expected. Cost, speed of use and being "Easy to Use" are not all the factors to consider. More often than not, you will be using the same dozen functions over, and over and over again until the printing on top of certain buttons on your computer keyboard are worn off.

Your dream project has little bearing to reality. Initially you are going to have to copy some small, simple, design out of a magazine. As an example for what you have envisioned exceeds the sheet parameters of the average plotter. Each component of the project has to be drawn and sized to fit within the standard sheet sizes. MODEL AVIATION and RCM have on-line parameters as to what they like to see for linework and details. Not indicating for you to use them, but you are going to have to set up your own known parameters as to appearances and sizing before going too far. Most of the persons currently using CAD and reading the forum do not give a second thought to this, as by now it has become as familiar as your backhand. We all know there is no such thing as a 36 inch wide drawing, the real maximum is somewhere between that and 35 inches, so all of us adjust accordingly. These are things not written into any CAD software manual that I know of, but is something you learn from experience or at trade school.

What hasn't been mentioned is that I assume you are going to try an do all this at home. The market seems to have divided itself into four factions now. Autodesk (Autocad), IMSI (TurboCAD, DesignCAD, etc.), the 3-D vendors (like Rhino and Solidworks) and the CAD-CAMM vendors (like MasterCAMM). I first drafted up a plan in the late 1970's using a Civil Engineering software, so any system can be adapted. Some of these softwares will operate in Windows 98 and some new versions will only operate in Windows XP. This may seem a moot issue at present time until you begin to purchase or set up for hardware. If you want to work at home, many of the used and available items, and moreover AFFORDABLE items will not work in XP. There are no drivers available. So it is best to get some experience in set up also before you buy anything, it has to first-off meet your abilities, familiarity, interchangeability, compatibility, other components, and then lastly your wallet. It is much cheaper to investigate than to purchase. CAD Version X may be the hottest and latest, but your system and abilities may be better suited for a slightly earlier version.

I currently draft up model A/C plans for a couple of the west coast distributors and after your first couple of uncompleted projects, you will soon find out the capabilities of your software, the hardware, and your wallet to become compatible with others. Each of these distributors have theirown appearance and hardware standards, and you have to alter the thinking accordingly. I would also begin by using the noted standards and trying to replicate the works of another, but keep the project to maybe a 36 to 48 inch span A/C to begin with. Keep the 1/4 scale project in the back of your mind until a year of so from now. Complete something short and simple first. This will keep your costs down and give an indication as to what needs to be learned next. And, real or actual airfoils have little resemblance to performance on model A/C.


Wm.

COOSBAYLUMBER, thanks for you candid information. Actually I am quite familiar with and working on PC's as I am a network engineer. On top of that, I work for an engineering company with access to large scanners, copiers, and plotters. I have been scratch building (plans building) giant scale warbirds for years. So I am quite familiar with the construction methods and work needed. What I am not familiar with is how to use CAD software. What I do know is that I do not need to purchase some high dollar CAD program for basic 2D drawing as I am not designing a building with all of the plumbing, electrical, etc. My goal is simple. Since I cannot find a plan large enough to meet what I am looking for, I would either like to modify an existing plan or draw one from a 3 view. Initially I was thinking I could scan an existing plan into bmp or tif format and then import it into a CAD program. Enlarge the plan to meet my criteria, change the now irregular wood stock sizes and corresponding notches and change the design of some areas per my design ideas including the improvement of the scale outline. This is my true goal, not necessarily designing from the ground up.

That being said, can you or anyone recommend a CAD program to accomplish this? I have looked at TurboCad LE and Profesional. I am also looking at ModelCAD 3000, does anyone have input on this product?

Thanks for all of the input.

Jay

Jay

In general I tend to steer away from software with "Modeling" on the boxtop title and for those which are other than a full version. The softwares are interchangeable, but only with another similar user. A friend has DesignCAD and Autocad LT loaded up on his computer, and can fully import drawings from others and use the onboard drivers to create the temporary files to operate his equipment. My thought is these are readily available and affordable, and obsolete and will interchange with a host of drawings created by you and others. The local plotter repairman has these loaded up for testing and plot analysis onto his laptop. You could easily load either of which at home, then take a disk to office for plotting or alteration next morning.

A few years ago, I ran into two softwares which were designed for working with a deskjet printer. You could not create a drawing larger than which would fit onto am 11" x 17" sheet of paper. Period. This is fine if you are only working on rubber models. They had a filter in which limited the coordinate pairs to two significant places. In other words, you could not create a line which went into the 100's or higher.

On a personal note, I read about the numerous problems now going on for certain users of latest version of Turbocad involving XP. I understand that previous versions are more desired at present due to stability. Presume they will have cleared this problem up by next season. I use version 8 on occasion, and find their command termonology does not match those which I use in Autocad, and so often go into the manual just to look up the equavalent.

I have Intellicad also loaded up here at home, and it seems to be fully and directly interchangeable with Autocad. No conversions whatsoever and uses the Autodesk commands. It also has pen plotter drivers available in the loading process should you later desire to interchange with a firm who works CNC, or in G-code, or laser cutting codes. DesignCAD, Intellicad and Autocad LT are about 10% more expensive, but interchange with other systems that their brethren may not. They each still have a few terms in the unique command structure which defies this older CAD user.

The simpliest way is accomplish this is to go to a local adult night school which in my neighborhood cost $30 per semester. After about five weeks, the class will thin out, and you will have basically learned many of the commands which will enable you to do some work at home. Contrairy to what has been reported elsewhere, it is VERY difficult to learn CAD from a manual. Your termonology and description does not match their's and it is easier to question an instructor on how to get it done than to do through the manual index.

I have been getting 1-2 PM's per month now by someone who bought a $10 pen plotter on eBay and wants to run it at home. In round terms they will not work on XP and quite often not on software developed after 2002. These folks have switched back to older versions of CAD which are more compatible with the required output. They do the work in late model versions then convert back to the older version for plotting. These older versions also are completely interchangeable with the above noted hardware systems.



Wm.

True story that. It's how I got started. I was also really motived to learn it, so I did far better in the class. Hell, my final project was in 3D and had threads. We only spent one day on 3D. It's relative to your computer knowledge (which it sounds liek you have covered) and your desire to learn somethign new.

The local adult school have courses referred to as Beginner’s CAD, Advanced CAD and Remedial or Upgrade CAD taught semester. They are all given in one classroom by same instructor using the Educational version of Autocad. The low level CAD is taught every semester and the remainder on alternate ones for the same $30 cost. I take the second semester to learn what is new or now used with the latest release. The problem in these second semesters is that they go “down� to basics too far, and essentially they expect to teach again what you already know. There is zero instruction as to XREF's, drawings in Paper Space, plotting parameters, etc. and other items which are used on an everyday basis. The bad part in these courses is that you really need to have firsthand some high school quality drafting instruction or ability. They are designed for substituting in the software, not how to do or create anything. The classes are open to those from 18 to 80, and the younger set has as much troubles in learning as the older ones do. Unfortunately, there is a high dropout rate after the first five weeks, caused by counselors which are just trying to fill a classroom instead of learning the abilities of the student.


One word of warning for the downloaders. I do not know how prevalent, nor know to which product this applies to but I find out from a friend who is a download junkie that he got some “30 Day Free� products which also set a cookie into the computer. The cookie will not permit any competitive product installation or use. It will not permit an installation of anything other than the current release full version. He got hit by this in TurboTax a few years ago, and had to reformat then, and no one knew how to rid it.

Wm.

CoosBayLumber is pretty much dead on, on this topic (as in most other things he posts on too).

I would highlly recommend the Intellicad program. I bought AcadLT for home use, have worked w/ ACAD from version 2.1G & am currently using the LDD3 package at work. I like Icad's almost seamless interface w/ ACAD, I've seen it open dxf files that choke acad, and its about $300 cheaper than LT. Its available over the internet, try bricscad or cadopia.

A course or two at the local CC or Adult extension HS are great ideas. Gorge Omura is the author of a great acad book that will step you through most of acad's functions & discusses xref, drawing/file management, plotter setups, all of it. Its based on architechture, but its a great tutorial. Runs about $60-65 (iirc), and can be found in most Borders or barnes & noble type store or available online.

One major problem I have with Autodesk is not their software, but their marketing.[:'(] I do NOT like their value added reseller approach. They refuse to let the program come to a fir market value, and it is not available retail. And now with their re-buy-it-every-year subscription ^(%*%$^&*, I'd like to nuke the company. [:@] Try Intellicad, and you won't be sorry.

My thought here too is that omcusnr has touched onto a sore spot with me and brought out a bone of contention. He hit on something which new CAD users seldom think about, and I have been trying to express. Hardly do you get to learn 60% of the capabilities of one software version, when along comes the next. The software vendors are fighting with each other trying to sell another new feature, when good old version five or six does everything we need. It may take five minutes longer to do it, but is fully compatible with the $10,000 plotter sitting in the next room, and I sure don't want to buy another of those.

Along the line of his other point. Back in the early 1980's (pre-Autocad) I was doing plans on a system called Vango. Besides the basic software which the business purchased, there was a 40 hour long familiarization course taught to a few employees. After you got loaded up and going, they then had a monthly "maintenance charge" to deal with. This included updates, new pages to the thirty pound manual, and storage of inactive projects. (Remember, the one meg computer had yet to be out on the market at this time) The daughter of the boss, a $3 an hour employee, was charged with printing out the new manual pages as received via the fast 2400 modem, then ripping out the old pages and inserting the new into the three ring binder. If a telephone call came in, things stopped and may be forgotten. Thus the manual I always had seemed to be obsolete. As mentioned by omcusnr, before any new manual or aide can be printed, the software has been revised or a bug fixed which changes everything you read inside it. Since then I ahve had little faith in software manuals.

In all this was the geek in the other room who did not develop plans (nor make money for the company) but persisted in tormenting those who did by reinforcing their lack of knowledge of the monthly varying functions of the system. If he forgot to mail in the monthly maintenance charge, an update may come along which we then missed. Once paid, the whole system in the office went through a 1/2 hour upgrade and it changed the appearances of the drawings that were just finished yesterday, but only needed plotting. Surprize! The "Re-buy every year subscription" as omcusnr has mentioned is about the same thing we experienced with Vango, but on a less frequent basis. The current software vendors seem to be going this direction once again. Instead of spreading the base and getting more users, they are trying to hook in harder those they already have. If you are not current with all the options of the latest version, you get lost just trying to get familiar, instead of making plans.

An example of non-compatibility is the spreading use of CUSTOMIZATION now. Last year I received a plan from someone who had customized their software such that it affected the drawing and my standard loading. This affected it so the drawing could not be turned off, nor close the CAD software, nor even exit Windows. I had to re-boot the computer to get going again.

CAD ain't simple, nor is it a magic button and just when you think you have a partial handle on it, a different version comes out.


Wm.

I agree. CoosBayLumber hit on what I was going to say...just take a CAD class. You obviously need some sort of drafting background or you could be lost. But advanced ACAD is within reach to most anyone with some drafting knowledge. I dont necessarily agree that what they teach in these classes is too basic. Depending on the instructor, he may blow right past the "basic" stuff( in advanced CAD) and teach real world information. That is what I got. Maybe mine was an exception but plotting, xref, blocks, slide shows, and extensive 3D commands (and faults) were all taught indepth. Just my take on it.

HI, IAM JUST LEARNING TOO BUILD RC PLANES MY SELF. I FOUND A SITE CALLED RCCAD.com Its a 3D software, Good luck

Howdy guys! I downloaded a trial version of Deltacad and I'm having a ball with it. I drew a pattern ship a while back on paper and just recently transfered the drawing to DeltaCad. How ever, I do have a question. How do I transfer a rib pattern from Compufoil to my drawing in Deltacad? I have the full version of Compufoil on my computer now. If anyone out there has never used Compufoil you owe it to yourself to try it. Thanks guys and hope to hear from you soon. Hope its warm and dry where you are.


In Christ,

Joel Chavez

Just choose the "Generate DXF" option and C/Foil will save whatever you have up on your screen: wing planview, lofted set of ribs, foam cutting template, leading edge template set or an individual rib. I use it all the time....what a great program! You open the .dxf file in your CAD program and copy/paste the needed rib or whatever into your drawing.