Ghostrider FIN

Hi all!

I just wondering what to do if one engine stops? Can i try to help with rudder to correct torque?

Please tell me helping hints how to work if engine quits?

Tuomo

branded

My Feedback: (9)

Yes, rudder....and of course some aileron...

If you're near the ground such as on take-off, then there's usually not much else you can do. If you can keep it on the ground then by all means do so. If you've already broken ground, then pull the throttle back and hope for the best.

If you have altitude, you can pull the throttle back to idle, use some rudder to hlp with the adverse yaw and bring it in as you would a dead-stick landing.

If you're experienced (if you're asking this question then you're probably not) you can pull the throttle back to regain some control, bring the throttle back up slowly whilst adding rudder.

bjl

Just building a transall C-160 and just wondering if a gyro on the rudder axis would react faster than the thumbs and keep me out of a spin if one engine goes out? Anyone tried? It's my first twin and I'm open to suggestions....BILL

aerowoof

first thing is to reduce power on the good engine as it will try to keep raising and banking.once you get it back under control you can slowly bring the power up on the remaining engine and see if it is controllable and flyable,otherwise just cut it and make an emergency landing.gyro on the rudder reacts immediately alot faster than a person can and is recommended

bjl

Thanks for the advice, I've got about a month of winter left so I better get building. Seems that if an engine goes out, you have presious few seconds to land...BILL

Wayne22

My Feedback: (2)

bjl, where do you fly?

The use of rudder is among the last skills that most pilots learn...some never do. The key is to fly the airplane and keep it under control. Usually the only way you will know an engine has quit (especially with other models in the air) it that it will slow down significantly, and may, or may not start to turn, depending on the model. Most people will never figure out which engine has died, especially if they have to analyse the situation and decide whether left of right rudder is needed.......by that time the model is out of control and headed down in a spin. Fly the airplane! If it slows down, stuff the nose down to keep the airspeed up...come back on the trottle (as mentioned above) when the plane is under control slowly feed throttle back in (don't slam it to full throttle!!) Even if you only get to half or two thirds throttle before it starts getting squirrelly, it will reduce your rate of decent and give you time to plan a landing.
Altitude is your friend in a twin. You can exchange it for airspeed to keep the plane flying under control; it gives you time to think, and it gives you gliding range to make it back to the runway..


But, to get back to your original question. The easiest way to save it is to throttle back and land, same as you would if a single engine plane had a dead stick

fancman

My Feedback: (16)

Here is everything you probably need to know about twin engine flying. Very good info and a real good site for information about a lot of things.


http://www.rcwarbirds.com/techniguespage.htm#t2

Also read this post: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5569877/tm.htm

pilot727

My first twin years ago was a twinstar, i had over fifty deadsticks, the engines came with the plane and run great but one the same one always quit when comming in for a landing, altitude is your friend and i always used the ruddy even on a turn with a little to make the runway and it was not easy, my old friend told me to cut the other engine to an idle, make the turn, and then use a little power to make it to the runway, there are so many different kinds of dead sticks haha but i have had so many dead sticks with the plane and it was not easy to make that turn using rudder with power but i did every time till the old guy told me to not use power on my turn if i have enough altitude, then use what little power needed to make the runway, i had that plane for so long but did finally crash it, the engines were 40 size so i bought another twinstar with two os-25fx and never had a dead stick but my friend had one and i landed it for him, them engines run that plane so nice, after several years i gave it to a friend as i got more then my share of time in and he had it for a week, just got to play, too bad it was the sweetest twin that i think i will get another

Ghostrider FIN

Thanks fancman those are really helpfull..

Yes im going to start build my first twin, that why i asking. I have been flied many different planes and helicopter before decided to build twin. I think i build another twin(twintrainer) so i need no risk my warbird to gain experience with twins.

bjl

Thanks wayne, I fly near a small town north of edmonton alberta canada, our club has 2.2 acres to land on and we are at approx 2200 feet above sea level. I'm new to the forums but like the increadable info. My background is mostly 1/2 A and 40 size flying. The idea is to learn on a stable twin (C-160) and then look for a smaller norvell powered twin or quad. I like the rare and unusual /difficult planes to fly. Thanks again........BILL

Terror Dactyl

One thing that no one has mentioned is that if you have to turn the bird you need to always turn to the side where the engine is still running.

The reason for this is that even with idle you still have generated air flow and the wing that is going to be inboard in the turn will need that extra airflow to help with lift.

If you turn towards the dead engine there is a good chance to start a snaping spin, [] at which time the running engine escourts the wreckage to the seen of the crash .

Been there and have multiple Tee shirts

Ghostrider FIN

Thanks that is good to know too.

aerowoof

while that may have been true at one time some of todays arf have enough out thrust so that you can turn safely into the dead engine which is easier and requires less throw.

Ed_Moorman

My Feedback: (1)

You must be able to use your left hand and hold in the rudder. I have never flown a twin that I couldn't hold with rudder, especially if I reduced power on the good engine.

That being said, I generally always use a digital servo on rudder and I make darn sure that the rudder pushrod won't flex or bend no matter which rudder I have to hold. If you can hold full rudder and flex the rudder back to center, you may be in trouble at some time. Sport digital servos are down to $30 so there is no reason not to ues one. Even a 50 in-oz digital servo will hold the rudder over better than a 100 in-oz regular servo.

The best thing is to do your best to not have an engine failure. Forget max power and forget syncing your engines. 10,000 rpm difference is a lot greater than 500 rpm difference. Use well broken in engines. New engines are looking for trouble. I keep a Stick around to fly in engines. When you start your twin, start one engine, turn it, back off until you have a slight smoke trail, at least 400 rpm off the max. Hold the nose up at full power for a good 30 seconds to see if it will lean out and quit. Do not let your buddies tweak your engines. |

When one engine is set, shut down and do the other. Shut it down and top off tanks if they are small. Then crank both and DO NOT CHANGE THE SETTINGS. Keep your "friends" from helping by tweaking a needle. If both engines are set for a nice smoke trail, you'll fly the whole flight just fine.

Just to show that the difference in engine rpm didn't matter, I flew a plane with different engines, and took it to the Multis Over McDonough meet and flew it. I had a TT .46 Pro/11-6 prop on one side and a TT .42GP plain bearing/10-6 prop on the other. Couldn't tell the difference. Flew just fine.

Wayne22

My Feedback: (2)

I already figured that much out.... Which town? I may know someone in the area that can help you.....

pilot727

I had a twin built for me before i started to build a little, and when i went to pick it up they had both engines running with one guy on each engine trying to adjust them, wasent i mad and shut it down as you said, do it yourself one at a time,.

roltech

There is a solution ( new invention ) called TwinSync. link below.


http://shopping.netledger.com/s.nl;j...97&it=A&id=808 You can read more below.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_47..._1/key_/tm.htm


roltech

NikolayTT

Hi Guys,
I am afraid to not cause too hot feeling up there but all in my mind comes from good intentions;
thus excuse me if you can't handle this in a calm enough manner:
---> It looks from some responses that the twin-engine-fears will turn gradually into twin-panic-disorder ..[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]..
I like the simple things and thus the advices how to do it in a simple way seems the most useful while
the complicated things we should leave for NASA engineers for example. Thus I would like first to
thank for the advices and ask What is the Priority in all those good ideas, i.e. to ask one quite
DIFFICULT QUESTION to all who wrote so many pages with very good intentions indeed:
--->> Could you please list in order of priority the Top-10 Advices for RC Twin-Engine Airplanes ?
Let me try myself to sort out some conclusions; please delete this list if it is out of order, or just
update and re-order it:
1. Do Twins (airplanes, not g...s) = that is challenging: Sounds, Speed, Troubles - just hot essence of the life is there
beside the fact that two propelers are more efficient than one in the same total engine power and rpm;
just blame the Mother Physics for this, not me. Keep it cheap - it is going to crash sooner or later [sm=cry_smile.gif]
and what will remain is the experinced Excitement/Photos, ins't it ?! That is RC-hobby, do not try to
compete with NASA, Boeing etc, that is not possible on home-budget, they have been there forwever,
just about 100 years by 100 000 engineers, that is experience bigger than the Universe and there
are written a lot(!!!) of books how to do it; on RCU we can just prove to be very ignorat to those
achievements but that is not our goal, isn't it; we have HOBBY in mind only.
# 2. Place the two engines very close to each other, or even ... behid each other (Cessna, it was
finally agreed to be a bad idea about the pusher efficiency indeed due to turbulence), make large
wing-span to help the rudder, and big rudder controls with best servos one can afford. Why not
WarBirds - it looks Catalina is just the right Airplane constructed that way and tested and even
MEANT to work on ONE Engine only for saving fuel !!! Especially for FINLAND and Tuomo; in fact
I am also living in that Lakes-Country (althoug I do not speak properly Finnish) and considering
Catalina very seriously[sm=drowning.gif].
# 3. Place Gyroscopes on each(!) of the three(3) axes since they are 1000x closer to the problem
than the pilot is especially in the flight conditions, and they are about 10x times faster than
any fingers of RC pilot, and also they are 10x faster than the engine reaction on control.
#4. Make a THREE(3) ENGINE RC-Airplane - [sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif] it has been very well tested on several
WarBirds and might prove that 3 is easier to handle than 2, isn't it ?!?. Of course next step is maybe lot
more than 2 engines, for example even up 6 or more; of course it takes a great deal of
engine knowledge. And after that a Twin will be LOT MORE EASY than now, OK ?!

Cheers,
Nick[sm=wink_smile.gif]

BillS

I have had several hundred engine outs and never any damage. Engines will stop running at awkward times.

The most important aspect of a dead engine is to treat it like a dead stick. The mind says to throttle up and that is absolutely backwards.

The next most important aspect is to practice engine out under non-emergency conditions. You CAN NOT learn to fly engine out during a real emergency.

Set a switch on the radio to shut one engine back to idle. Throw the switch and fly until disorientated and then throw the switch back. You will get lots of emergency engine out practice with minimum danger to the airplane.

Bill

jaka

Hi!
The first thing to do is to never have the engines stop and second to build light airplanes! Light airplanes fly better and will not stall as easy.
So setting the engines correctly is very important. so practise, practise. You must be able to set your engines by ear! Pylonracing is a good learning ground.

If one engine stops despite you being good at setting engines....chop the trottle instantly and begin to decent (keep the airspeed up) and land. Never turn if you're flying low...and be prepered to dive to maintain airspeed.
If one engine dies when you are taking off, Ă*n a nose-up attitud, chop the throttle and fly straight and land. Don't try to turn sharply or give up elevator! This will mean instant snap roll and crash.
Keeping the airspeed up is very important!

pilot727

Jaka
Great advise

fancman

My Feedback: (16)

http://www.rcwarbirds.com/techniguespage.htm#t2

roltech

I read you loud and clear!! however when you spend over a couple of grand for your hobby nothing is simple, that is why spending 200.00 for extra protection on a 2000.00 plane for me is cheaper. have you read the thread about TwinSync ???
I will be installing it to a B25. and you don't have to belong to NASSA it's not that hard to install.

roltech

BillS

Don’t depend on engines always running. They will quit. There is no such thing as engines that never flame out.

I had a coil bracket break on a single engine gas airplane today and it was definitely not a tuning problem.


Bill

yl5295

My Feedback: (1)

I have learned from the guys flying big planes (ziroli's) that is it not about gyros. That is a lot of expensive electronics to put in a plane. Will it help - YES. Will it solve the problem - No. The bottom line is airspeed and thrust differential is the key.

I crashed a P38 a few weeks ago that was the Twinsync test bed because of pilot error. It throttled back the plane and I was given a clear signal that I was on one engine. I tried to be a hero and bring in and land it (as I have done before with applause on landings). It was two turns away and on one engine with a lot of rudder being held in and I and snap rolled it 30' from the end of the runway after the second turn because I let it get too slow and the cross coupling (rud and ailer) was too much.

The best advise I have is to find a place to land and keep the wings level if you have a twin with only one engine runnning. There are exceptions but it depends on the airframe, wing loading, and power.

The technical details will dictate how a twin will fly with one engine. P-38s are the worst (if an engine quits forget about throttling up the good engine unless you are 90 deg away from the runway and have plenty of speed and keep the nose down). DC-3's/P47's are the best (Don't worry about an engine out but keep the airspeed up).

That is why the TwinSync has so many programming options (and why I created it - for a couple of wyle planes that I had rather go dead stik than have full throttle on one engine). It is not about saving the plane or making things difficult for the builder, it is to let you make the decission about what to do next. A gyro will not help if your airspeed is low. The key to flying twins on one engine is airspeed and knowing when you are flying on one engine. I have been flying twin combat planes for year and the rule is if one quits idle the other and treat it like a deadstick. The Twinsync does that for you but gives you the option of throttling up. --- but pilot beware - not always the best option. If there are several planes in the air you can not hear an engine quit. Rather you just snap roll un expetedly. That doesn't happen with the TwinSync. The snap roll becomes a dead stick and then it is up to the pilot what to do next.

Bill