Mode One

On this forum, I see alot of debate over the cost vs benefit question of being a member of the AMA. Some espouse the view that the AMA does nothing for them, other then provide some insurance, which will only "kick in" in the event that their home owners insurance becomes "tapped out" after a catastophic incedence. This likelyhood certainly seems important to me! We live in a litigious society! Best of freinds may at some point end up sueing each other over much less then loss of life or bodly injury!

Are there other benefits which the AMA provides the model flyer? This is a question I want others to comment on, as opposed to me directing! I am a long time proponant of the AMA! I am a firm beliver in the benefits the AMA provides me as a member and feel that as far as cost is concerned, the cost vs benefit is much higher towards the benefit end! However, it is readily apparent that many of you are disatisfide with the AMA. Maybe we can have a rational discussion here, point out the benefits of being a member or decide that we need to redirect this orginazation to make it a better orginization!

Open descussions are great! Lets put RCU to use, here!

Mark DeSchane, AMA 59157
Park Rapids, MN

3dbob37n

We recently had someone who was dissatisfied with AMA. But then, realize that he has declared bankruptcy three times and screwed folks out of a lot of money he owed them and generally does not carry any liability insurance including auto insurance.
Most of the objections that I have heard from folks are people like the above. Irresponsible and could care less about anyone else around him. He feels that this is his freedom which translates to something like "he has the freedom to screw anyone he wants.
I have yet to meet anyone who objects to AMA except for a few screwballs so I would not worry about keeping those folks in the AMA. AMA is better off without them.
I have been to AMA Hq only once but was very impressed with the facilities and even made a few flights there.
We will always have the oddballs, folks who think NASA did not land people on the moon,
who believe that Kenndy was assasinated by LBJ or the FBI and many other conspiracy theories that are rampant, and, incidentally, the problems are added to by the Internet where any 12 year old can get on a make outrageous claims.
I have been a member of AMA off and on for the past 45 years and as a businessman myself, I can tell you that they run a pretty damn good show given the problems that they face.
One thing certain: There is strength in numbers and we now have the numbers and with the high numbers we have, we can effectively lobby Washington. When the SPA entered the picture, which by the way, was started by an insurance salesman who lost out on the insurance bid with AMA, we lost a lot of power but eventually regained it when SPA fell apart.
We cannot predict the future or predict what may lay ahead for us as a group and a powerful and strong AMA will always be necessary in times such as some group wanting to use our frequencies or stop us from flying our toy airplanes.
That's what I have to say about it.

3dbob

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

3dbob,

Did you mean SFA (Sports Flyers Association) in your above post, rather than SPA? The story of the SFA and subsequent restructuring is rather convoluted, but if anyone is interested I have a long file on it.

I think the problem with the AMA stems from apathy on the part of the membership. VP positions seemed to be for life as so few voted or stepped forward to run for office that incumbents were locked in, for better or worse. Another problem is that so few members even know what the organization offers and join only to be able to fly at club fields. They just won't take the time to examine the AMA package.

Real modelers understand, but they are dieing off and being being replaced by the ARF generation - easy in, easy out of the hobby which requires little or no committment.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

We very much need the AMA to lobby for us. Right now in Texas, and I suspect in other states, parks cannot be established unless they are multi-purpose. Ex: A park can have soccer fields and a boat ramp and fishing and camping and swing sets. But a park cannot be etablished to be dedicated for one purpose , like RC. Our activity does not mix well with other public activities. Our fileds must be single purpose. I don't know, but I suspect that the Texas regulations might be federally mandated. Either way, the AMA should have been lobbying Washington OR the many state capitals to change these guidelines. 400 hundred soccer fields in Houston and one RC park, and that is city land, city money, not state money. We are citizens also. Or hobby is a wholesome one. There shouldn't be laws against using park money for RC fields.
And since that battle was lost, the RC clubs have also found themselves squeezed out to the boonies. Newbies now choose electric planes, which they fly on those very soccer fields in town. Fields that could have been used as dedicated RC fields had the laws been different. And now it has come back to bite the AMA. Membership has not continued to grow. It has actually declined slightly. The AMA has allowed RC flying to be driven out of the major population centers.
AMA, why have you forsaken us ?

Soccer ! Can you believe the millions of dollars this country has spent on fields for soccer ? Americans didn't even play soccer when I started flying, not in any great numbers. And now there will be soccer fields throughout our cities for the next 1000 years. And we will be pushed further and further away. No one else is forced to buy their own fileds to play softball or soccer. Houston even has municipal golf courses.
Is the AMA worth it ? I guess we will find out soon enough.
I realize that there are oddball goofs out there in computor land that are unable to connect the dots and call a spade a spade. And I realize there are some very forward municipal governments that have taken care of thier RC freinds. But this is the big battle we now face. Land. Land is going to be so very expensive, no club could afford it. No land owner could lease it cheap enough. The AMA might just be as large as it will ever be. In fact, the AMA might very well be loosing many of its clubs, never to be replaced.
The land grab has come and gone. Soccer for ever !

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

I support the AMA every year and I will say 3DBOB is right on one and only one issue. There is power in Numbers.

The management of the AMA needs to be good Stuarts of our funding. Right now I could not say they are.

If the AMA would live on the careful budget and not try scams like the video thing I am sure that would go a long way. I want to feel good in sending my AMA money every year.

But calling people names when they do not agree with the AMA is so childish. Maybe some of us need to grow up and go fly. Remember flying is fun.

Crash99

rcmiket

3dbob, Am I reading this right? Most who do not agree or question the AMA are brankrupt and rip people off? I am not nor plan to be either any time soon. I was a member of SFA . After they " went away" I was forced(if I wanted to fly) to become a AMA member. I think choice is a good thing, I wish we still had one. I don't agree with some of the stuff they do the magazine for one. It should at least try and make a profit or break even. The Muncie site was never (to my knowledge) ever presented for approval to the membership. I think that the AMA hasn't changed with the times. This is 2005 not 1953 in this day and age of instant "this and that" we need to be prepared to change with the times. Just for the record I've been active in R/C for about 15 years so I've seen the good and bad. It all starts at the top.The problem is that no one takes the time to get involded just look at the last voter turn out for AMA pres. Take care and remember this is supposed top be fun. Mike

timothy thompson

My Feedback: (1)

I fly at a soccer field they let me fly gas and glow plus electric. Just follow the safety code and dont fly when the kids are there. Ask your local soccer assn. if the would welcome you many will!

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Newbie!!!!!!!!!

rcmiket

Highplains thats a cheap shot, and thats the problem but I guess you have the answers, right? Do you have something of value to contrbute? Mike

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

These types of arguements have been going on for a lot longer than your 15 years. And compared to my 35 years of RC, you are a newbie. As am I compared to the old timers. It doesn't matter to me that the magazine runs at a slight loss. I would rather have it lose money, but allow small companies to afford small ads for their products. Perhaps you have never entered a contest or flew at the Nationals. We all lose when people don't strive to do more with the hobby. Most of your equipment was developed by people that did.

Mode One

From my perspective, I think Model Aviation is one of the best Model Airplane
magazines. I have dabbled in all aspects of this sport, but R/C is and always has been my
big interest. I like that MA provides CL and FF coverage. It's interesting to see what is
happening in these other facets, which are just as important to the whole as R/C is.

I don't see any model airplane magazines that you can subscribe to for less than $24.00
per year for 12 issues. For presentations sake, lets take $24.00 from the $58.00
membership. this leaves $34.00 to cover the insurance and all other products and
services the AMA offers.

"Newbie" is a slam and is hardly appropriate for someone with 15 years experience! In
fact if you want to attract new people to this sport (essential to it's continued existence) I
suggest we refrain from using degrading monikers at all!

rcmiket

Ok you have 35 years in the sport. So whats your plan to keep it alive? How do ypu propose to deal with the decline in membership, loss of fields and the general "who cares attitude" of the membership. This "everythings find with me" has got to stop or else. Everyday I find myself going to RC Scalebuilder.com just to get away from this AMA right or wrong stuff. Time to face the fact that guys without 50 years in R/C will hopefully being about the changes we need. Mike

MajorTomski

On the insurance issue.

One thing that is greatly over looked, is the clubs' coverage relative to the land owner.

We fly off of public land in OKC. The City requires One Million in coverage to protect them. Through the AMA the club gets FIVE million protecting the city. They are extremely pleased to see that policy.

T

rcmiket

I have to agree on that point we fly off of private land and it is a real help to have that as a selling point. Since your site is public land can non AMA fly there with homeower's? Sooner or later we may have a public field here and I know somebody will have a fit over having to join the AMA to use taxpayer land. Thanks, Mike

MajorTomski

The City requires us to be non discriminating. We must let you join if you can prove that your homeowners will specifically protect the city inthe event you are involved in a modeling mishap.

It's ususally cheaper and easier to join the AMA

T

rcmiket

Thanks I was wondering about that. Some of the guys here think we can just require it. I was pretty sure we would have a problem if they did. One club on the other side of town is losing there field to housing next year and were in good shape for another 5 or 10 but ya never know. Were working with the city but its a hard sell as you must know. Thanks Mike

Tim8o)

My Feedback: (1)

Even though this post is a few days old, I would like to add my thought. I have great credit, never screwed anyone, and have been an up-right decent guy. But I don't want to give AMA any money when they are secondary insurance to my home owners. I made sure that my home owners policy covered any incident related to my hobby. For a few extra dollars, I have fantastic coverage through my home owners insurance. So I would most likely never even touch AMA insurance.

But my biggest issue is that the clubs here in S.E. Wisconsin demand that you are AMA or they will lose their charter. So I don't join any clubs. I'm outcasted (not really) as one of those guys. No fun flys, no visiting other folks at different fields etc.

So at $56 for AMA, $25-40 to join a club. The expense of airplane and RCstuff. How is this promoting the sport, and how can a kid even think of getting into it.

rcmiket

I feel your pain but your stuck. Clubs require your AMA to protect the landowner in case of a "problem" In this day and age of "sue them all" the landownwe will get sued along with every person around including club officers. Your not a outcast you just choose not to join a club. If you break down your dues and AMA its really a small portion of your hobby dollars. My club dues are only 35 a year so its really no big deal to me. As far a kids we don't make them pay dues or AMA till they are sure this is for them and supply the support they need to suceed. - Good Luck- Mike

J_R

Hi Tim9o)

Let’s look at the insurance for a second. The AMA supplies to clubs, for about $120 max, primary coverage for the landlord (as rcmiket pointed out), and for most clubs and their officers. We also know, from what Dave Brown has previously written in his column, that about 50% of the dollar amount of all claims against the AMA are generated by clubs and not by individuals. It’s pretty obvious that the policies for the clubs and landlords are subsidized by the individual members of the AMA.

What are some of the things the AMA does to promote areomodeling? Well, as you pointed out, they supply a policy that is excess for each individual. They also represent our interest with the government. Currently that means trying to protect our interest with the FCC and our frequencies relative to the implementation of Broadband over Power Lines, and with the FAA with respect to altitude limits and airport closures relative to modeling. These are just a couple of things that have been discussed here recently.

In addition, there are other programs to promote modeling, such as the scholarship program, the museum, representation to the NAA and FAI. The list goes on and on. You also get a magazine as part of your membership.

While there are areas of the country where club membership is not a prerequisite to fly, there are other areas where if you want to fly… even park flyers… you need to belong to a club. Clubs have costs and must cover them by charging for membership, in most cases.

If none of this applies to you, you are one of the few.

JR

Hossfly

OK so you can cover what you might do to someone else. That's good.


Fortunately those persons running those clubs appear to have a much broder perspective than you wish to develop.
Let's say that the clubs did NOT require AMA. Now ol' $am $hyster is a pauper since his multi-$$$ are all set in Trusts, his properties in Life Estates, and other than that super-mach-one demon is all he owns. $am finishes that cool-one and then proceeds to make big holes in ths sky. He overdoes it, that over-stressed ARFie sheds wings, etc., and a rocket-like projectile catches YOUR backbone just above the belt. Now it's wheel-chair time forever. $am has NOTHING. YOU get NOTHING. Whose fault is it? IMO, it's guys like you that have no concept why there are people that do have a concept of a mandatory insurance, one that is known active, being the main point of the Club Charter. ALL are protected. Even in this modeling world, not everyone is such an up-right decent guy as yourself.
Another few bucks just may protect your OWN butt a bit. [>:]

abel_pranger

Yo Hoss-

Man, we've butted heads on this one before. It won't change your mind or mine, but here's the counterpoint for others to consider:
The main point of the Club Charter is to provide liability insurance coverage for the owner of the flying site. That is why the AMA insurance Program was instituted in the first place, to assist clubs in securing use of flying sites from owners that were reluctant to grant use due to liability concerns. You were there, and I'm sure you know that. It remains the essential reason that clubs charter with AMA today.
As for twisting/abusing the program to mandate insurance coverage on everyone around you for your fiscal security if you are injured, you had best familiarize yourself with the legal concept of "assumption of risk." AMA understands it well and has tried to exclude member-to-member coverage from the terms of the insurance contract, only to back down under the hue and cry from the likes of yourself. They will however invoke it in defense of an AMA member/insured that you make a claim against for injury he has caused to you. Their obligation is to protect him from liability. That is what you are buying from AMA - liability insurance, not coverage for yourself in the event of an accident. If you are injured while engaged in modeling activities by another AMA member, you will be in an adversarial position with him in the legal system, and you darned well better understand going in that AMA's obligation is to back him in defending against your claim that he is liable for your injuries.

Abel

typo corrected as underlined

the troll

Thanks Able for getting it right!

Another frequently overlooked scenario is that family members are left out to dry without any consideration in the event of an accident between themselves while flying together.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Excellent post, very helpful. I appreciate the effort.

Hossfly

And your point is ???

Certainly that is what I expect them to do, and same for me should the situation be so.

OTOH, I prefer to have that feeling of security that the other guy has at least some kind of insurance beyond a measly 100,000 yankee dollars home owners', and yes, that small amount is still written today. Some have NONE. An AMA member has SOME.

I also realize that certain securities evaporate in our current fiscal society, such as Defined Benefit Pension plans. Retirees of UAL, AA, DAL, NWA, and Gen. Motors will all be in that line very soon. Yet, as for now, I want the guys around me to have some access to liability insurance and if I get injured, then I will cross that who-done-what bridge when I get to it.

BTW, the trust account that holds the mortgage for my club's facility is a NAMED Insurance holder under AMA.

So, Able, you can well determine your priorities as you so determine. I will do same. My mind will not change for those that run around harping about having to be an AMA member to fly at someone's facility. NO SYMPATHY HERE. [>:]

abel_pranger

Hoss-

Well..........thanks for asking. My point is that your position as you have stated it repeatedly, and in the current context have passed off to others as sage advice, infers that you view the other guy's liability coverage as your cheapass way to get the equivalent of General Medical and Disability Insurance coverage at the expense of others. You're trying to sell the notion that AMA is The Mommy that will bring you your security blankee when you are in need, and that just isn't so.
Aside from the limited Medical coverage provided by AMA that might compensate you for expenses incurred if you stick your hand in a rotating prop, AMA isn't in your corner of the courtroom while you sit in your wheelchair pleading your case against the person you allege caused your injury. They are on the other side of the room, where they should be according to the contract you have (and the Respondent has) made with them to provide you with protection from liability risk.
You are a respected and influential member of the modeling community and AMA offers a valuable insurance product that helps us get and retain fields that are an absolute requisite for organized aeromodeling. Sell it on its own merits, rather than your fantasy of what it represents to you.

Abel