KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
03-07-2007, 01:47 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Hopefully that image (above post) is legible.
Here is the description:
I think that if you use the measurements on the drawing, your Beaver will have the proper incidence and location of the float step. But, make sure you get an incidence meter to verify this.
1) The forward strut is stock and should be used (attached to the fuse). The brackets for the 1st strut should be mounted 90 mm from the outer-most molded edge of the servo hatch (see drawing).
2) Find the supplied aluminum bars that measure 246mm (center-to-center of pre-drilled holes). These will serve as the 4th struts. These struts are longer than those originally intended for this location. By using them in the 4th position, you effectively jack-up the back of the plane relative to the top of the floats, thereby decreasing the wing incidence. Mount the brackets for the 4th struts 70 mm from the rear of the servo hatch (see drawing).
3) Now mount the brackets for the 2nd and 3rd struts as indicated on the drawing.
4) Go to Menards/Home Depot/Lowes and purchase a length of aluminum flat stock that closely matches the supplied material. Mark/punch the location and then drill the holes for struts 2 and 3 on the bar you just purchased (measurements on drawing). After the holes are marked/drilled, cut the flat stock to length, leaving about 3/8†of material beyond each hole. Round the ends with a file (to basically match the shape of the supplied material).
5) Mount the supplied brackets to the bottom of the fuse, and then attach the floats to the plane using the supplied (1 and 4) and new (2 and 3) struts. When you put a level on the top of the floats, the incidence of the wing (very near the root, close to the fuse) should be about 2.5 degrees, and the step should be about 1 inch behind the CG (80mm from the leading edge of the wing).
As long as you are in the range of 1.5 to 3 degrees on the incidence, and the step is 0 to 1.5 inches behind the CG, your plane will fly fine.
Hope this is helpful.
My plane flys great with this set-up. I also added some aluminum angled pieces between the struts (photos in previous post (#12)) to help strengthen the rigging up a bit more. But I think they add a lot to the overall appearance.
Noah
Here is the description:
I think that if you use the measurements on the drawing, your Beaver will have the proper incidence and location of the float step. But, make sure you get an incidence meter to verify this.
1) The forward strut is stock and should be used (attached to the fuse). The brackets for the 1st strut should be mounted 90 mm from the outer-most molded edge of the servo hatch (see drawing).
2) Find the supplied aluminum bars that measure 246mm (center-to-center of pre-drilled holes). These will serve as the 4th struts. These struts are longer than those originally intended for this location. By using them in the 4th position, you effectively jack-up the back of the plane relative to the top of the floats, thereby decreasing the wing incidence. Mount the brackets for the 4th struts 70 mm from the rear of the servo hatch (see drawing).
3) Now mount the brackets for the 2nd and 3rd struts as indicated on the drawing.
4) Go to Menards/Home Depot/Lowes and purchase a length of aluminum flat stock that closely matches the supplied material. Mark/punch the location and then drill the holes for struts 2 and 3 on the bar you just purchased (measurements on drawing). After the holes are marked/drilled, cut the flat stock to length, leaving about 3/8†of material beyond each hole. Round the ends with a file (to basically match the shape of the supplied material).
5) Mount the supplied brackets to the bottom of the fuse, and then attach the floats to the plane using the supplied (1 and 4) and new (2 and 3) struts. When you put a level on the top of the floats, the incidence of the wing (very near the root, close to the fuse) should be about 2.5 degrees, and the step should be about 1 inch behind the CG (80mm from the leading edge of the wing).
As long as you are in the range of 1.5 to 3 degrees on the incidence, and the step is 0 to 1.5 inches behind the CG, your plane will fly fine.
Hope this is helpful.
My plane flys great with this set-up. I also added some aluminum angled pieces between the struts (photos in previous post (#12)) to help strengthen the rigging up a bit more. But I think they add a lot to the overall appearance.
Noah
03-07-2007, 11:42 PM
#28
RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
SSW,
I'm in the process of installing a Zenoha G-26 on a KMP Beaver. I didn't go with a Bisson inverted wrap around on mine because the muffler is too wide and would require cutting out the bottom and sides of the cowl pretty good and atleast 1/2" spacers behind the engine mount to get the muffler to clear the firewall. I have a setup like that on my P-6E and it still stuck out the sides of the cowl bottom being as big as it is. Part of the problem with the wrap around inverted muffler on the G-23/26 is the mag housing behind the cylinder. The muffler drops down farther than normal to clear it. It can be done depending on how particular you are with cutting up the cowl.
I'm trying to come up with a custom setup using a G-23 muffler and 1/2" copper piping and fittings to route the exhaust down and out the right side at full scale exhaust exit location.
Or you can use a B&B muffler or the stock G-26 one but it's going to look ugly sticking out the front side of the cowl.
The G-20 muffler would fit in the cowl with only the pipe sticking out the front side but then there is a problem with installing the cowl over the engine with the muffler and carb attached unless you modify the muffler and change the exit pipe location to the side and down and out like the G-23 muffler.
I'm in the process of installing a Zenoha G-26 on a KMP Beaver. I didn't go with a Bisson inverted wrap around on mine because the muffler is too wide and would require cutting out the bottom and sides of the cowl pretty good and atleast 1/2" spacers behind the engine mount to get the muffler to clear the firewall. I have a setup like that on my P-6E and it still stuck out the sides of the cowl bottom being as big as it is. Part of the problem with the wrap around inverted muffler on the G-23/26 is the mag housing behind the cylinder. The muffler drops down farther than normal to clear it. It can be done depending on how particular you are with cutting up the cowl.
I'm trying to come up with a custom setup using a G-23 muffler and 1/2" copper piping and fittings to route the exhaust down and out the right side at full scale exhaust exit location.
Or you can use a B&B muffler or the stock G-26 one but it's going to look ugly sticking out the front side of the cowl.
The G-20 muffler would fit in the cowl with only the pipe sticking out the front side but then there is a problem with installing the cowl over the engine with the muffler and carb attached unless you modify the muffler and change the exit pipe location to the side and down and out like the G-23 muffler.
ORIGINAL: ssw
Good info here. I just ordered a Z....G26 for my KMP Beaver and want to put a Bisson muffler on it. Is there enough room for a wraparound pitts style with the flat firewall or will I need the inline straight down style muffler?
Steve
Good info here. I just ordered a Z....G26 for my KMP Beaver and want to put a Bisson muffler on it. Is there enough room for a wraparound pitts style with the flat firewall or will I need the inline straight down style muffler?
Steve
03-08-2007, 07:57 AM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
WM- I was afraid this would be the case. There doesn't appear to be much room to work with. I'd like to see any pics you have with your final set up. I like the idea of a single scale exhaust stack. Thanks for the info.
Steve
Steve
03-08-2007, 08:40 PM
#30
RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
SSW, Here are some pics to look at.
There is a pic with a G-26 w/ bisson inv. wrap on a G.P. P-6E. If you look close enough you can see where I had to cut out the cowl to clear the muffler.
I also have a shot with a G-26 w/ a G-23 muffler modified on my DR-1 to show the pipe going straight down.
And a few shots of the beaver with a G-26 installed with cowl on and with the piping out the right side of the plane. I haven't soldered it up yet but you can get the idea. I don't yet know if the silver solder will hold up against the exhaust temp so it may have to be brazed together. You can also see the G-23 muffler was modified slighty by a hammer to clear the cowl.
The copper adds about 3-1/4 oz.s of wieght. Again this is an experimental idea.
If noise restriction is not a problem, B&B does have a G-23/26 header pipe that also could be used.
I wish they made 1/2" 90 and 45 degree elbows in aluminum like the copper fittings. One could really go to town making light wieght custom exhaust systems. Coming up with a exhaust system that fits in cowl always seems to be a problem.
There is a pic with a G-26 w/ bisson inv. wrap on a G.P. P-6E. If you look close enough you can see where I had to cut out the cowl to clear the muffler.
I also have a shot with a G-26 w/ a G-23 muffler modified on my DR-1 to show the pipe going straight down.
And a few shots of the beaver with a G-26 installed with cowl on and with the piping out the right side of the plane. I haven't soldered it up yet but you can get the idea. I don't yet know if the silver solder will hold up against the exhaust temp so it may have to be brazed together. You can also see the G-23 muffler was modified slighty by a hammer to clear the cowl.
The copper adds about 3-1/4 oz.s of wieght. Again this is an experimental idea.
If noise restriction is not a problem, B&B does have a G-23/26 header pipe that also could be used.
I wish they made 1/2" 90 and 45 degree elbows in aluminum like the copper fittings. One could really go to town making light wieght custom exhaust systems. Coming up with a exhaust system that fits in cowl always seems to be a problem.
03-08-2007, 09:02 PM
#31
RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
One thing I forgot to note:
On my beaver, The chin scoop on the bottom of the cowl did not sit perfectly at the 6 o'clock position with the side paint stripes aligned up. (Not a big deal for me as I'm repainting / recovering the plane.)
On my beaver, The chin scoop on the bottom of the cowl did not sit perfectly at the 6 o'clock position with the side paint stripes aligned up. (Not a big deal for me as I'm repainting / recovering the plane.)
03-09-2007, 07:55 AM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
WB- Nice pictures. Interesting muffler modification. Let us know how it holds up under the heat. I like that it all fits inside the cowl and has a single exit point. I looked at the B&B header pipe and I think your right about it being loud. Not much to it, but it sure is simple and straighht forward. Let's see that float installation. 
Steve
Steve
03-09-2007, 09:25 AM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
If you're using solder on the copper joints, it wont hold up against he exhaust heat. U have to use the copper weld. It is similar to application as solder, but takes about 1200 degrees to melt. Mep gas will work on it.
I have tried the alumaweld rods and it work sometimes. Some failed due to heat and vibration and cracked along the joint
I have tried the alumaweld rods and it work sometimes. Some failed due to heat and vibration and cracked along the joint
03-09-2007, 05:01 PM
#34
RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
I do plan on brazing the pipes together. I picked up a small oxy/mapp torch kit for $50.00 at Menards that should do the trick.
SSW, I'll post some float pics in the near future. Still working on recovering the wings and such. I too didn't care for the original wing install method KMP had. ( the rubber band and sheet metal screw(s) don't cut the mustard ) Had to do alittle modifying there too as suggested earlier in this thread.
SSW, I'll post some float pics in the near future. Still working on recovering the wings and such. I too didn't care for the original wing install method KMP had. ( the rubber band and sheet metal screw(s) don't cut the mustard ) Had to do alittle modifying there too as suggested earlier in this thread.
03-09-2007, 05:10 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
RE: wing attachment
I got rid of the metal locator pins that KMP supplied and used 1/4 x 20 threaded rod, cut to length and epoxied into the wing. I used wing nuts over neoprene washers to hold it all together. It's very secure, never vibrates loose, and assembles and disassembles quickly using the hand-tightened wing nuts.
I got rid of the metal locator pins that KMP supplied and used 1/4 x 20 threaded rod, cut to length and epoxied into the wing. I used wing nuts over neoprene washers to hold it all together. It's very secure, never vibrates loose, and assembles and disassembles quickly using the hand-tightened wing nuts.
03-11-2007, 10:11 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Hello,
The look of the Beaver is hard to beat, no Q about that...
I'd be interested to read about its flying qualities.
Hope some of you share your experiences.
Tks
The look of the Beaver is hard to beat, no Q about that...
I'd be interested to read about its flying qualities.
Hope some of you share your experiences.
Tks
03-20-2007, 03:17 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Manix,
I have already commented on flying this plane (above), but I'll just reiterate one important point... you'll need to use the rudder! Compensating for engine-torque during take off will of course require some right rudder input. Once in the air, you should be making coordinated turns with aileron and rudder. Flaps are very effective and allow for very gentle and slow landings. Control your decent rate for landing with throttle. You should only need a little bit of elevator during the flair.
It's not difficult to fly the Beaver, it's just easier when you're accustomed to flying with rudder input.
Hopefully someone else will jump in and share their experiences. In my opinion, this plane flys great. I have not had any problems and it's easy and fun to fly.
Good luck.
Noah
I have already commented on flying this plane (above), but I'll just reiterate one important point... you'll need to use the rudder! Compensating for engine-torque during take off will of course require some right rudder input. Once in the air, you should be making coordinated turns with aileron and rudder. Flaps are very effective and allow for very gentle and slow landings. Control your decent rate for landing with throttle. You should only need a little bit of elevator during the flair.
It's not difficult to fly the Beaver, it's just easier when you're accustomed to flying with rudder input.
Hopefully someone else will jump in and share their experiences. In my opinion, this plane flys great. I have not had any problems and it's easy and fun to fly.
Good luck.
Noah
03-28-2007, 06:59 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
couple of other points....on my kmp beaver....controll horns (plastic 2 screw pinch tupe)totally eliminated.....used carbon fiber horns used on jets...these are hysoled into slots drilled into wing/flap/ele hard points...good for200 mph plus...no ugly backing plates....earnst h20 rudders/proctor pullys work fine....if they bind its due to lower button head screw...too tight....or molding distorted...get new ones...engine....evoulation 26/35 seems to fit cowl best....35 for higher alt lakes.../ft windshield...dont use supplied screws...use any good white/canopy glue...much cleaner install and h20 proof when cured....side windows go in good w/omni/goop into small syringe for tiny non/sloppy bead/1.5-3 float inc to wing inc fine...step position not that critical....1in either side of c/g/servos...digital/mg/65-80 oz fine...im using hitec mgs...very little gearbacklash....good value/im using twin lipos w/regulators....light and c/g good with heavier evo 35/19/10 carbon fiber prop......sinc kp couch
04-13-2007, 08:07 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
I have still got a long way to go, but this is what I got done so far.
Fabricated muffler for ZDZ 40 rv
fitted cowl
Extended landing gear
Noah, what kind of tempetures are you getting with your ZDZ 40?
Im thinking of baffling mine.
I test run on bench and a 5 second WOT , would put it 300 degrees F.
After yours got broke in, what was your High and Low needles turned out too?
Thanks wade
Fabricated muffler for ZDZ 40 rv
fitted cowl
Extended landing gear
Noah, what kind of tempetures are you getting with your ZDZ 40?
Im thinking of baffling mine.
I test run on bench and a 5 second WOT , would put it 300 degrees F.
After yours got broke in, what was your High and Low needles turned out too?
Thanks wade
04-16-2007, 02:25 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Hi, Wade.
Good to see your progress.
I've been using a Raytec IR temp gun (MT4). Immediately after shut-down (after flying), I get readings from 190-210 degrees. The temp certainly creeps up if not read immediately after landing and shutting down the engine (up to 250, sometimes, if I wait 15 or more seconds to take a reading). I've never run it on a bench, and I've only run it cowled. I don't have any baffling, but I do have a cowl with huge holes (for that crappy Brisson side-mount muffler). I think mine's getting adequate cooling. Not sure why your's is so hot. Are you sure you set the ignition pick-up correctly (5mm btdc, if I remember), cause it sounds like 300 is way too hot and something is a bit out of whack. What about that 3-bladed prop? Is it appropriately matched for the ZDZ-40? Maybe the load it too high and that's why you're running hot. What rpms do you get with that thing?
Regarding the needles... This is from memory last summer... I think my needles are each at 1.5 turns, Zinger Scimitar (wooden) 20x8 prop, 7300 rpm. I can check on the needles when I get home tonight, cause 1.5 on each may not be entirely accurate. I know I did have to do some adjusting after break in. I'm going to re-prop this spring. I was considering a composite prop so I wouldn't have to worry about water warping it during float-flying season. I like your 3-blade and spinner. Looks REALLY nice! What size is it?
I'll get back to you as soon as I can about the needles.
Get that thing done! It's flying season, Wade!
Regards,
Noah
Good to see your progress.
I've been using a Raytec IR temp gun (MT4). Immediately after shut-down (after flying), I get readings from 190-210 degrees. The temp certainly creeps up if not read immediately after landing and shutting down the engine (up to 250, sometimes, if I wait 15 or more seconds to take a reading). I've never run it on a bench, and I've only run it cowled. I don't have any baffling, but I do have a cowl with huge holes (for that crappy Brisson side-mount muffler). I think mine's getting adequate cooling. Not sure why your's is so hot. Are you sure you set the ignition pick-up correctly (5mm btdc, if I remember), cause it sounds like 300 is way too hot and something is a bit out of whack. What about that 3-bladed prop? Is it appropriately matched for the ZDZ-40? Maybe the load it too high and that's why you're running hot. What rpms do you get with that thing?
Regarding the needles... This is from memory last summer... I think my needles are each at 1.5 turns, Zinger Scimitar (wooden) 20x8 prop, 7300 rpm. I can check on the needles when I get home tonight, cause 1.5 on each may not be entirely accurate. I know I did have to do some adjusting after break in. I'm going to re-prop this spring. I was considering a composite prop so I wouldn't have to worry about water warping it during float-flying season. I like your 3-blade and spinner. Looks REALLY nice! What size is it?
I'll get back to you as soon as I can about the needles.
Get that thing done! It's flying season, Wade!
Regards,
Noah
04-16-2007, 02:27 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Wade, what about that muffler? Could that be too restrictive, also contributing to hot-running? Have you tried it with standard muffler?
Just a thought.
Noah
Just a thought.
Noah
04-16-2007, 04:17 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Noah,
I have the same temp gun, this is what I get on test bench with Pro Zinger wood 20x8, Bisson side mount muffler and fabed muffler ( both are the same results) 5mm btdc.
140 degrees @ 2000 rpm
180 @ 3500 rpm
280-300 @ 7500 rpm
I only ran wide open for a few seconds, knowing that it would heat up, just wasnt expecting that much. I plan on putting Biela 3 blade 19x10 on after break in.
I went ahead and started on baffling, this is what I got so far.
Thanks wade
I have the same temp gun, this is what I get on test bench with Pro Zinger wood 20x8, Bisson side mount muffler and fabed muffler ( both are the same results) 5mm btdc.
140 degrees @ 2000 rpm
180 @ 3500 rpm
280-300 @ 7500 rpm
I only ran wide open for a few seconds, knowing that it would heat up, just wasnt expecting that much. I plan on putting Biela 3 blade 19x10 on after break in.
I went ahead and started on baffling, this is what I got so far.
Thanks wade
04-16-2007, 06:39 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
some more pics of backside, Im gona add some side shields extended to the fins.
I feel this should direct the air to the cylinder head and cool it down alot I hope.
I dont know why they painted the heads for. It only adds more heat.
My DA50 stays cool without baffling in a 30% Yak, with no issues.
I feel this should direct the air to the cylinder head and cool it down alot I hope.
I dont know why they painted the heads for. It only adds more heat.
My DA50 stays cool without baffling in a 30% Yak, with no issues.
04-16-2007, 09:15 PM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Ahhhh... WOT. I got you now. Not all of the jargon has found it's way into my head yet, Wade!
I've never monitored the temp while in use, only immediately after shut-down. Now you have me very curious about how hot mine gets during WOT, as you say. I plan to get it out for some wheeled flight this coming weekend, so I'll be sure to check on it then.
Your baffling looks like it should help a lot. Depending on what I find, I may have to follow suit.
Let me know if you find it running cooler at full throttle with the baffling in place.
I've never monitored the temp while in use, only immediately after shut-down. Now you have me very curious about how hot mine gets during WOT, as you say. I plan to get it out for some wheeled flight this coming weekend, so I'll be sure to check on it then.
Your baffling looks like it should help a lot. Depending on what I find, I may have to follow suit.
Let me know if you find it running cooler at full throttle with the baffling in place.
11-24-2007, 08:20 AM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Anybody with a KMP Beaver notice any washout in the wing?
If so how much? 1-2+ degree
It seems mine has none, and worried , it should have some, for a long narrow wing.
I built all new landing gear and tailwheel, 19 1/4 pounds with zdz 40. ( no floats on it yet)
I have read every thread on this beaver and nobody has mentioned washout on the wing.
do I need a chill pill and fly ?! or heat and twist, looks like it would not hold, being sheeted from spar .
Thanks for advice
If so how much? 1-2+ degree
It seems mine has none, and worried , it should have some, for a long narrow wing.
I built all new landing gear and tailwheel, 19 1/4 pounds with zdz 40. ( no floats on it yet)
I have read every thread on this beaver and nobody has mentioned washout on the wing.
do I need a chill pill and fly ?! or heat and twist, looks like it would not hold, being sheeted from spar .
Thanks for advice
11-24-2007, 11:17 AM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Chill pill, Wade! This thing is not hard to fly! Have fun with it. I'm jealous that you have opportunities to fly this time of year!
If there's no washout, then no washout is needed because mine flys great. No tendency to snap. It'll slow way down when landing, just use the throttle to control decent and maybe blip the throttle just before touchdown. I say this because if anything, the smallish elevator loses authority when there's little airspeed... but again, there's no snap. Like any new plane, take it (way) up high and put it into a stall... mine just mushes straight forward. You'll know immediately what to expect when you land if you do this simple test.
I also think that 19.5 is fine, too. You're might be a little heavier than mine, but not by much. The wing (in spite of being narrow) is very long and thick, so it provides generous lift. Be sure to test the flaps, too. When I drop them to about 20 degrees (full, in my opinion) the plane will balloon quite a bit. I don't have elevator mixed in to the flaps, I just point the nose down and use throttle to manage decent rate.
Let us kow how the flights go.
Regards,
Noah
If there's no washout, then no washout is needed because mine flys great. No tendency to snap. It'll slow way down when landing, just use the throttle to control decent and maybe blip the throttle just before touchdown. I say this because if anything, the smallish elevator loses authority when there's little airspeed... but again, there's no snap. Like any new plane, take it (way) up high and put it into a stall... mine just mushes straight forward. You'll know immediately what to expect when you land if you do this simple test.
I also think that 19.5 is fine, too. You're might be a little heavier than mine, but not by much. The wing (in spite of being narrow) is very long and thick, so it provides generous lift. Be sure to test the flaps, too. When I drop them to about 20 degrees (full, in my opinion) the plane will balloon quite a bit. I don't have elevator mixed in to the flaps, I just point the nose down and use throttle to manage decent rate.
Let us kow how the flights go.
Regards,
Noah
11-24-2007, 11:30 AM
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Wade, mine is still sitting in the garage on floats... I finally decided to weigh it in this configuration... it's 22.5 lbs (stock floats and my modified rigging, rudder and pull-pull system). Aside from the aerodynamic changes (much more drag, obviously), I have found that it flys about the same with floats on. That is, there's no increased tendency to snap at lower airspeed. What I'm getting at is that 19.5 is not too heavy, not by a long-shot.
You'll love it, Wade... now just get out there and fly!
Noah
You'll love it, Wade... now just get out there and fly!
Noah
11-24-2007, 05:58 PM
#48
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: , NC
Posts: 114
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RE: KMP Beaver: Just started, looking for feedback
Thanks for confidence Noah, I am going to test Sunday. Wind will be out of the south, straight down the runway.
I added little over a pound when I built my landing gear, They are nothing Fancy , but they are solid, Alot better than that cheap wire that came with it.
I added little over a pound when I built my landing gear, They are nothing Fancy , but they are solid, Alot better than that cheap wire that came with it.