Espresso-Outfitters

If I use pink or blue foam as the base of the design, it doesn't need too many reinforcements and I think that's what I'm sticking with from now on, but for your first foam cutting jobs, stick with the white stuff, it's much easier to work with in this area, the difference of course is it's strength, and I can say, after having to reinforce things after the fact, won't consider it for use in the future personally, at least not in tail areas. In all elements where strength is necessary, ie. motor mounts, elevons, servo/langing gear mounts, etc., I'll use stronger material such as balsa or heavier foam. If you decide to use the white foam, be sure to give it a little extra girth so it's mass makes up for it's lack of strength in those areas and tape potential stress point areas.

Along the glue, plain old wood glue or even epoxy does the job and gives you plenty of time to position things correctly, hot glue is my personal choice entirely because it's really fast, I haven't noticed a big difference between grades of it because it's alot stronger then the foam you are attaching to, the only draw back to hot glue, it doesn't sand well at all, so be sure you get the final sanding complete before putting things together. I also just smooth out overflows from the cracks with my fingers like they do with caulking, keep in mind though, I have calused hands especially in my fingertips from playing guitar and of course building carts and a high pain threshold so the heat doesn't really bother me, I suggest testing some scrap before trying either.

critterhunter

Man, I'm getting behind in responses to old messages and PMs but I'll just take a quick minute to respond. For the glue, it appears the original designer of this plane prefers to use a low heat glue gun. Not exactly sure what low and high heat wattage raitings we are talking about here for low and high, but I know too hot a glue gun could melt the foam. Many foams are NOT CA safe, or even safe with most glues on the market. Planes using advance foam materials like the Stryker are safe with just about any glue out there. In other words, if you don't use a glue gun then pick up foam safe glue. I currently like this stuff called "Weld Bond" that can be found at many craft stores. It's under $5 and comes in a HUGE bottle for that price. You could pick up foam safe CA but it's expensive as gold. Weld Bond looks like Elmers white glue but dries to crystal clear. It also keeps a strong yet somewhat rubbery hold that won't crack when flexed. This is not like shoe goo, much more less rubbery.

As for the fins. I think (Fisher?) you make the flaps, at least on the tail, out of thinner foam material? Something like sturdy board, coruplast, fan fold, whatever. Fisher, can you chime in on that one? The one on the wing I would figure should be made from the wing's foam but am not sure about the tail.

Fisher

Critter,

I used hot glue on the low heat setting. I screwed up on a repair a couple of weeks ago and set the gun to high heat to get it warmed up quicker. Forgot to turn it down before I shot it onto the foam. I ate right into the foam about 1/2" before I could stop slopping it on. Once I let it all cool down I was able to stick it back together. The hot glue is fast and the bond is stronger than the foam.

As for the vertical and horizontal stabilizers, I just used the same EPS foam and cut a thin symmetrical air foil just like Foamflyer recommends. The horizontal stab. is a bit too thin so it vibrates at high speed. I have not found any problems when following Foamflyers directions exactly.

Lets see some photos if you have made some progress.

AJ1202

Hey guys I know this is a little off the beaten path but I found this to be an easy build and it turned out pretty good. It is a plane called
The Nasty, GG gave me the download for it. I know it's flat foamy rather than foam cut or formed but I liked it, I'm hoping to get to maiden it this week, I put a 480 geared motor in it and using a 9.6 100 ma batt, I set it up as a 3 channel with E/A/T only but it should be a blast to fly, not quite 3-D but next best thing
http://image.rcuniverse.com/forum/up...46/Vt57930.jpg

Fisher

AJ1202,

Looks quite good. Let us know how it flies. I am looking at flat foam designs but Foamflyer made it so easy to build with EPS foam that seemed like a good first step.

AJ1202

Fisher, your right, your move is the easier of the 2, as far as flying goes, I made the maiden today, got a couple short flights in but made unplanned landings more than flying, flat foam planes are hard to fly or I should say hard to me , I do think however once I get the prop size figured out it will be quite fun to fly, I broke 5 props and cartwheeled it twice today, no damage to the plane
It flys very squirly, I made it turn 180 while perfectly horizonal 3 times and I have to say I wasn't ready for that move. Also important note my plane is much heavier than it is supposed to be at 23 oz AUW should be about 9 to 12, I figured using the 480 geared would make up for that. I went this rought because I can't seem to get the foam cutter together and this came recommended to me
I hope to have better flights soon, so how many more planes have you build since the twin boom, I have to admit I haven't been following this post that much but you did a excellent job with your cutter and the plane as well, sounds like it flys good too
Still waiting to see Critter build that monster version of it with the 580 motor, I have been looking at revisiting the little plane again soon and I have 2 580 motors, so I wait to see if it can be done
Critter I know your busy with the Strykers and the ABX upgrades but heres a new challenge

Espresso-Outfitters

"flat foam planes are hard to fly"

The only ones I've seen fly well, the motor was so overbearing, a brick would work just as well.

I'm still perplexed why people like those 3d fliers, they look like the simple flat foam planes I used to buy as a kid for .50

I'm sure the utter lack of volume has a major aspect, but us die hards are used to a little girth. Can you explain upon the situation with this? Perhaps we can combine efforts to create something that combines the best of both worlds.

AJ1202

Espresso, my plane is not a 3-D. it is far too heavy for that, it is simply a flat foamy. I think the intrest in 3-D is the fact that you can do amazing stunts as well as hover them, watch a vid of one and you can see the reason for the intrest, I personaly am not really interested in the 3-D but like the idea of being able to fly a plane that is cabable of incredible all out stunts and yet look like a real plane in the air. My plane is what you call a profile plane. Then again it's all about what you like and how far you can push the design
Look at it this way a Disc plane could be considered a flat foamy as well as 3-D if set up right. You were playing with a disc a while back weren't you. How did that turn out?
I made a small mod to the wing this morning that I'm hoping will make it more stable and allow for better lift and glide ability
I added a 9" extention to the end that added a touch of dehedrial and polyhedrial at the wing tips. the mod points to the rear of the plane so it also added a new look altogether

EDIT: just got back from flying with the mods to the wing,, success, it was much more stable and once I got the right prop figured out it flew good, I will still say it is definatly harder to fly than anything I have flown so far but it was a blast to fly, I need to reinforce it a little more and get my thrust angles set up but it flys good once you get it up there

Espresso-Outfitters

Ok, it just looked like a 3d plane, not knocking it at all, flat pieces are really easy to create, glad you figured out the fine tuning, perhaps we now have another free foamie here? I don't have time to experiement any more so have to rely upon you smart people to create and experiement, hoping I can extrapolate a new design after the fact.

Along the disc shaped designs, what is really strange about it, I have to establish another principal which is not addressed in airplane technology, ie. temperature makes a "HUGE" difference in performance with that and any other small plane. I'm trying to formulate an exact working set of equasions, but it's really strange to fly something in my shop and have it fly quite well only to have it flop once I take it outside. I know micro-thermals have something to do with it, but this is down right strange, any input upon this would be helpful. I'm told cold air is better, but am finding it a hinderence, regardless, I do have a working formula for constructing disc shaped craft, at least if you decide to push the "round flying wing" through the air in the same manner as a conventional aircraft. ET doesn't rely upon this technology, he has far greater control and there is alot more elements going on with his craft then what I've been focused upon dumbing it down in this way, I just wanted to start with the absolute hardest designs before I scaled back into the traditional.

Again, nice plane, good job, what materials were you using?

AJ1202

Espresso, I don't think thermals are the issue or difference in flying something indoors vs outdoors, it is most likely as simple as wind current, in a closed room unless air is being moved by some fasion the air is dead calm, if the temp is regulated then thermals would not be enough to notice, outdoors even on a calm day there are air currents moving, not nessasarily thermals, this would account for the stability difference also keep in mind it requires less power to move a plane indoors than it would outside due to air density
I didn't take it as you knocking 3-D or flat foamies, I was mearly trying to answer your question
I built mine out of foam board you can by a Wal-Mart, hence the added weight, foam sheet covered on both sides with construction type paper, It is designed to be built from depron or fan fold foam, I wanted mine to be too heavy to fly 3-D as I'm not good enough to fly 3-D,

five-string

AJ, can you point us in the direction of the download for the Nasty. Looks very good. Thanks.

You used a 480 geared and a nimh? Wonder what it would do with a 400 brushless and lipos?

String
p.s. wanna go halves on a pack of fff? I could drop it off to you on my way through Savannah.

Fisher

AJ1202,

You are doing far more real building than I am. My first foam plane went together just like Foamflyer's directions stated. I dropped in the gear and threw it into the air. Voila! Off she went straight and stable. I have hit a tree, belly flopped it a couple of times and even ran straight into a building while on landing approach. Still flying it, though the plane is not all that pretty any more. There was never any need to mess with wing or any other aspect of the plane. The design is very very forgiving. And the fact that it is just a 3 channel makes it easy to fly.

On a side note I just finished building a Great Planes Reflection. I am looking to fly 3-D with it. First flight was very short due to the fact that the aileron servo needed to be reversed. I have read many posts from people who had not gotten the aileron travel set correctly before their first flight and I always wondered how dumb you had to be to let that happen. Now I realize I am the dumb standard for that action.

I have built no other planes since the first two So Whats. Waiting to smash them to pieces before I make more. I intentionally to the So What out in 30 mph plus gusting winds to see what it would do. Lots of fun to fly a plane in those conditions and not worry about smashing it up. Still did not manage to destroy it. 6 planes in the house at one time is about the family limit for now. Have fun.

critterhunter

Wow, this thread just won't die...I've been busy with other matters and will get to this plane as my next build. Work, bills, and other issues have been eating into my time at the moment. Haven't even tried flying the modded Challenger or Extreme yet. They are done, with only wing bolts yet to be added some I can get rid of the rubberbands and wing pegs. Well, I already put nylon wing bolts on the Extreme.

Incidently, was I flipping channels the other night when I came across one of those home improvement shows. Seems they were using a HUGE (like 4x8 foot or bigger) block of EPP foam to build something around the hot tub. They had a huge homemade hotwire bow they were cutting it with, and the cut I watched was a gradual curve to let it set beside the hottub and hug it. Wish I would have flipped channels a bit sooner to see this show from the start.

five-string

Speaking of tv shows, does anyone watch the DIY Network (DirecTV) and catch the Radio Controlled Hobbies show? They feature different aspects of the r/c hobbies from cars to monster trucks to tug boats to airplanes to jets! The host really needs a hairdresser.

Lately their schedule has been goofed up. The Info on the upcoming episodes say it's going to be about brushless or 3D flyng and it instead focuses on car racing or helis (which was awesome). I still TIVO them all.

Espresso-Outfitters

AJ I have ran experiements in the shop both heated and unheated, it's giving me the same consistant results, ie. no heat, no flight. I did the same with outdoor tests where I have a covered temp structure which shields the wind, again, same results. I will have more data in this area once it warms up here, but so far this phenomena is baffling. I've discussed aerodynamic theory with others and they all have clearly stated full sized aircraft have very defined principals and the smaller scale have not been addressed as much in the theory, my idea is because only full scale aircraft bear any merit in the commercial world.

One of the reasons I'm defining these principals is the fact that I will soon be doing this on a commercial basis and not only want to have exotic designs, I want the mainstream ones to always consistantly fly well. I've purchased plenty of off of shelf designs and many had zero merit what so ever, yet they still managed to get to those shelves and be mass produced. This shows me that traditional fuill scale aircraft design is only meant for traditional full scale aircraft and the rule books need to be re-written for the smaller ones. Any further input would be helpful, the book is not closed in my mind at least in regards to temperature fluctuations.

Jax_Dorvek

Espresso-Outfitters, its been a while but I did aeronautics in high school. Lets see if I remeber any of it lol

Temperature will make a difference to any aircraft because of atmospheric pressure (barometric. pressure)

Colder air is more dense, which means there is more air per cm flowing over the wings equaling more lift. Hot days mean the air is thinner and the air craft will need a lot more speed to get the needed air over the wings to provide lift.

Espresso-Outfitters

Actually I really know what you just said in this area, it's just a given I know the principals behind the basics, I have it so under my skin, I build freehand and still remain largely politically correct, it's just when I am modding something off the shelf just to make it actually work................

I created a new formula to answer my original question. Humidity found it's relavent variable into this. The last tests were under utterly dry, yet cold conditions, flights performed almost as well as in normal temp, earlier flights were under the low temp. more humid conditions which combined created too thick of a medium to effectively move through..... I'm thinking submarine at this point if I were to expand upon this theory.

At risk of being hated more, I have a new toy:



It came fully self contained, talk about from box to flight, wow, everything was just done, all you gotta do is charge and plug in the battery. You will want to break out the hot glue gun to secure the velcro better, but they give you a neat little set of straps to secure that end even further. I swap packs between flying contraptions so it's gotta be removable for my uses.

Wish me luck on the maiden voyage, hopfully I won't get *****ed at from the local park for unleashing the latest mod on a hopeless design he he, yours truely created the canard add ons:



I had to duct tape the battery to the nose to adjust the weight "don't underestimate this mod" and it was still tail heavy even though the weight was balanced, managed a few short runs. Currently chopped down the canards and will try it again the next time I get time.

AJ1202

Espresso, that's an interesting mod you made to the jet, I'd be curious to hear how it fly's. where did you get the actual plane?

OK guys I have finnaly decided to revisit the SO twin boom, here is my game plan, I went and bought some FFF so it's gonna be a little different from specs in that as well, I am going to make this a water bird, I'm going to make the booms V shaped and tall enough to allow for flying off and onto water, I'm gonna use CF tube or simular along bottom edge to allow land use as well. I'm still undecided on power, I have 3 options here, 1) twin motors at the front of each outer boom. 2) the suggested 400 at the rear of center boom as designed. 3) increase overall size and use 580 motor and prop from ABX, hmmmm, decisions decisions
I think I will have to go with elevator/ rudder to make it steer on the water, I'm also gonna add a tiny amount of polyhydrial and incedence for lift and better slow flying stabilty, need that to glide in to water landings, also going to increase the wing cord from 7" to about 12" or 14"
It will most likely be a couple weeks before I make much progress as I'm building a new Nasty to replace the first one I built,it was too heavy to fly as well as it should, if all goes well I will have it ready by the weekend

Espresso-Outfitters

Actually that mod did work, be it undefined and just a guess as to size and placement, I finally was able to get it off of the ground consistantly after I figured out the battery pack needed to be taped to the very nose of the plane, I never got a long duration flight since these idiots in the field I fly in tend to bring their little ones with them to spectate "bad idea in my case since this is experiemental" so I cut it short. The problem with that jet, you are supposed to launch it like a spear, yet the weight being balanced in the center doesn't allow it to do so, so wind is a necessary component. The canards were too large, so I chopped them in half, hoping I can move the weight back and get a little more stability, it tended to wobble a bit. I bought it at a local hobby store, I won't reccomend them, they have a very limited selection of kits and almost zero replacement parts as well as they really don't know what they are talking about and when you ask them for components, they just assume you are willing to pay any price they have on them. Sorry folks, no battery pack is worth 100.00, no brushless motor is worth 80.00 and no receiver is worth 100.00 as an example, so I'm not going to endorse these guys, that and I purchased my first 4 channel radio from them and they stuck me with a micro receiver that has zero compatibility for any servo's in existance. I'll do one more test run on the jet and if I don't get the results I expect, it will be revised into a pusher saucer craft......

Good luck on the fff, I look forward to hearing your results, all I can say on weighting it, after the foam part of the plane is complete, tape the motor(s) and battery pack(s) where you want them to be "generally" and balance it as best as you can, I use painters tape so it doesn't tear up the foam. I string a cloth tarp up at the end of the shop, only lightly draping it allowing it to collaps upon impact with the experiemental. This allows you to do some ""short"" test glides without destroying the plane since it will crash into the tarp and gently be cradeled as it falls, you should be able to get a decent idea as to what it can handle load wise and where using that technique if you are wanting to keep it low tech.

Fisher

AJ1202,

Sounds great. Can't wait to see what it ends up looking and flying like.

Fisher

Espresso,

I do not watch much TV but caught part of a History channel show on WW II era almost Vertical Take Off fighter development. The prototype plane looked much like one of your flying disks and had two engines with fairly large diameter props. Plane sat at about 45 degree angle when resting on the landing gear. This gave it the proper attack angle for almost vertical take offs. With all that thrust available it also had a very fast cruising speed. I am sure that the variable pitch prop had a lot to do with the wide speed range.

Just thought you might be interested.

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplane...t/flapjack.htm

http://www.unrealaircraft.com/wings/cv_flapjack.php

Espresso-Outfitters

They look similar, I've always found the flapjack to be a killer plane, the german WWII version looks almost identacle, I'll grab a kit and build one true to it's scale eventually. Most of mine are different since the aerfoil is not symmetrical at all, I probably should break it down into a formal structure because photo's do not show what I mean unless perhaps if I paint the seperate areas with different colors, that and it's using a rudder/fin configuration to counteract the discs instability, I'm moving forward with it where my goal is to not need any of it, making it look much more like the traditional UFO's people speak about in the sightings.

Fisher

Critter,

Where are you? Have not seen you post here lately. I dove behind a tree the other day when a very large twin boom plane came over the house quite low. Thought maybe you had gone all the way to manned flight. Turned out to be the local Army/Guard folks practicing low level cargo drops. Any recent progress?

critterhunter

Here I am, Fisher...I've been hacking away at jobs like crazy lately...Trying to pay off some bills and prepare for the tax man's bite he is going to take out of my *ss. Haven't had much time to do anything other than eat, sleep, work, work some more...I'm getting rather burned out at the window cleaning business and have been considering a career change. It's taken me 14 years of building this business to realize I'm not going to retire on it. Perhaps I'll be going to a trade school at night for something. Haven't made any decisions yet as my state of mind (depressed) [] doesn't have me thinking too clearly right now. It's these darn Cleveland winters. I know one thing, I'm ready for spring and to do a bit of flying...

Fisher

I hear you! I have lived in Alaska for 16 years and I am still not used to the neurotic schedule. There is little day light during the winter and when spring hits it never gets dark. My adrenal gland starts pumping in May and does not stop until October. By then I am worn out and as the days get shorter the depression sets in. My wife and kids do not seem to mind it. I get up in the dark and turn on all the lights in the house to make it feel like it is day time. My wife goes around turning them all off because it is "too bright". Now that I know it is an issue I have learned to live with it. If time and money are available a short mid winter trip to a sunny warm spot certainly helps. I will shut up now. Just thought I would let you know you are not alone.

Regarding the vocation thing, at 44 I still do not know what I really want to do for a living. The year I spent without a job was one of my most enjoyable. I worked on a commercial fishing boat, tagged salmon sharks, worked on my boat, painted the house and did all kinds of odd jobs. Very relaxing. Did not pay well but very relaxing. I need to sign up for a TIG welding class soon so I can trick out my aluminum fishing boat. I start killing 40 lb kings in May and do not stop fishing until September.

Hang in there. Spring is really coming, I promise.

Now suck it up and get that big foamy built so I can show my wife photos and make a case for cluttering up the house even more.