Simple guidlines:
#1-plane that is 3D capable, Light, low wing loading, large control surfaces, preferably with wing and hor. stab inline on the thrust line.
#2-Motor selection: within the crafts advised weight specs, the lightest, most powerfull engine. Personally I prefer 4 strokes.
#3-prop selection: Under the advised specs of the engine the largest diameter, lowest pitch prop that will still keep you in the advised rpm range. The low pitch gives greater thrust, quicker spool up and greater speed management. The large diameter offers greater torque and more wash over the control surfaces.
#4-set up: Through trial and error you must determine the effect that the large diameter prop and power of the engine has on your plane and correct it by adjusting the angle of the engine. On a full throttle up line with no input if it pulls left, then right thrust angle is needed. If it pulls towards the wheels, then up thrust is needed. If it pulls towards the canopy, then down thrust is needed. Fly, observe, adjust. Continue, until, on full throttle upline with no input it climbs straight up. Then and only then will you have the proper thrust angles for hovering and torque rolling. It is challanging enough without haveing to correct with opposite inputs when the engine is pulling one way or the other.
#5-control surface setup. All control surfaces should be neutral, Centered. If your goal is torque rolling and 3D then forget adjusting the surfaces so it flies straight and level at half throttle. Lets say that your model requires a little up elevator dialed in to fly normal, well in a hover or torque roll you are now also fighting the effects of that up elevator as the prop washes over it.
#6-CG We all know that a nose heavy plane(forward CG) flies more arrow like and an aft CG offers a more aerobatic set up. This also is trial and error. Start with recommended and work your way back in small increments until you reach YOUR comfort level.
#7-expo = personal preference. My self, I do not use it. There are many bennefits to the use of expotential and that will be left to someone with more experience on this matter. #8-torque rolling is accomplished with throttle management and the inputs to the tail feathers, which keeps the plane in a vertical attitude. Ailerons are only used to stop or slow the rate of the turn as torque propells it around. Hope this helps. Joe

Chip has indicated he has a small amount of rudder mixed to his throttle. For the 3D stuff in general, it seems to move the CG back is all good. Even to the point of being unstable in normal flight. You must have a plane that is highly "DAMPED" in pitch as you will be making a lot of inputs particularly on landing... (Pushing an increasing amount of DOWN elevator on final approach is a little unnerving to some). Additionally... I have stumbled onto the fact that with my Chief Aircraft KATANA, a small amount of reflexed ailerons seems to reduce the pilot work load whilst TR'ing. (Instead of fussing with the thrust line?) Undoubtedly you will discover the "Magic Spot" while TR'ing when the plane just seems to have found a certain attitude and will just start spinning up! It is almost mesmerizing! When this happens with my planes, it is rolling so fast, there is no hope of my being able to implement needed corrections fast enuff. I have tried with some success to modulate the power. If it requires say 50% power to hover stationary, I will modulate the power from say 30% to 70% every so often. This will provide over time the correct amount of "Average" thrust to hang, but will prevent the air from stagnating around the plane and getting into the "Spinning Top" mode. Oh yeah... a really reliable motor and big flippers!!!
G2 will help you develop the proper reflexes. http://www.aero3d.net is a good resource for fun downloadables!

mith

[8D][size=4]Hi people

[color=red]Hello "heliopilot32137", wellcome here, in the most colored topic of rcuniverse.com

You are in good hands.

[sm=thumbup.gif][color=red]Hello 3D beginners, wellcome to my second lesson.

[color=blue]Two of our most pleasant 3D experts have given very good and large suggestions to you.

[&:]I'm a beginner too in 3D flying.

Trust me. Try torque roll flying high. In this way you'll avoid to crash your plane.
At the same time, play with Real Flight G2 [link]http://www.realflight.com[/link] You must buy add-ons n. 4 to download planes good for 3D at the following link:


[color=blue]The ability of 3D flying is to learn automatic reactions to keep the plane in the right attitude.
[sm=thumbup.gif]You must be able to give quick and big inputs to control surfaces, above all to the rudder when you try torque roll and the plane
requires big corrections (see the suggestions of "Pizza" in this thread).
[sm=thumbup.gif]You, instead, must learn to handle the sticks with gentleness and delicacy when you are in the right vertical attitude.
When you have in front the bottom of your plane, you must learn to react in the opposite way. At this moment the things are
very difficult and you must be gentle with the sticks.

I have found that Real Flight G2 is a good tool to learn 3D manoeuvers without crashing my plane and to escape from dangerous situations. If you don't have add-ons n. 4, in this thread you'll find a very good plane to download.

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

You are correct sir. Joe

No day in which you learn something is a complete loss. David Eddings

ive never owned a simulator in my life, nor will i ever. like you i have a model tech magic 3D and it is extremly easy to hover you just have to do and remeber these. btw make sure you balence your magic about 5 inches back.

1. dont ever think cuz it says 3D that you dont have to practice
2. just cuz you can hover one dont mean you can hover another
3. hovering is not easy 3 surfaces are in action 1. engine 2. elevator 3. rudder
4 dont ever keep your throttle at a constant give short bursts
5.make sure your balence is behind the recommended go as far as needed untill it becomes pitch unstable then you need to move it forward and there is your proper balence point for hovering

6. dont ever continue and argument when your wrong.
7. this thread is giving bad ideas in beginners heads even though it pertains to 3D it still will make a message that they can just buy a sim and go out and fly this is FALSE!!!
8. simulators are a small help but to most they are just a toy or a tool to find out what type of plane they want next[:@]

Hey BIG
You indicate that you have never had, nor will ever use a sim.... then in item #8 you make an assertion that the sim is little help... well that is a nice opinion... but.. It runs counter to the majority of people who do have a sim (Myself included) who do think that it can be instumental in developing the proper reflexes for any flight regime (Myself included). No one is asserting that there is no need for real models because sims are better... (No one who has intelligence anyway)... but sims are an awesome tool! I have personally developed the finger action to do a lot of the low post stall 3D stuff, but have learned to do rolling circles as well.... with the assistance of the SIM!!!

Don't knock it till you try it!!!

(playing with a sim for 10 minutes is like judging the taste of coffee after walking in front of a Starbucks)
So borrow one for a rainy weekend and figure out all the optional settings and mods!

Thank you cumm thru. The information you gave me certainly will help me in trying to do TR. I can do other 3D stuff except TR and rolling harriers. With the info you have given me, I have understood more. I will try to correct my engine's attitude. I have a 3W 85 twin in a Hangar 9 Cap and it tends to go to the left when I'm trying to hover.

I would concur with the Italian guy in some aspects of having a simulator but it's not everything. I have a real flight simulator but I didn't care about the realism aspect of it. I just cared about training myself on automatically feeding the inputs necessary in a certain maneuver. The realism is acceptable but not enough. It can't compare to flying the real mccoy. I also use the sim just to find out what the plane is going to do in my !QUOT!What if's!QUOT! inputs before trying it out for real at the field. I bought my simulator strictly for helicopters because I wanted to learn how to fly them. It helped me a lot in knowing before hand what the helio would do with difficult maneuvers and as I've said getting that instinctive response on the sticks by just doing it repeatedly in the simulator. THOSE ARE SOME OF THE ADVANTAGES OF THE SIMULATOR.

BUT ITALIAN FLIER, DON'T GET ME WRONG, as I've said, it will help somebody in some ways but it doesn't stop there. You have to go out and apply what you have learned. Again, the bottom line is to PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Now, I'm sure the 3D experts also uses these simulators as they have been raving about AeRO FLY, no doubt because we have simulators now to practice on. Several years ago, we didn't have these simulators! We didn't have any choice but to go out there and burn fuel. That's how other 3d experts learned before. Now, people learned 3D thru simulators then do it for real out there on the field.

The issue is not SIMULATORS VERSUS PRACTICE! There's no doubt in my mind, these two compliment each other. Those people who never had the chance of having a simulator but became proficient in 3D anyway, might say otherwise but that is being ignorant. Those who says, they can be proficient in 3D by spending more time with simulators and less practice like you , are just being also ignorant. I agree with you that beginners will have less crashes but I don't agree with you in saying !QUOT!less practice!QUOT!.


I bet the moment you start flying 3D for real, you will be out there burning fuel! Then, you'll see lesser and lesser your simulator. The only time you'll come back to the simulator is to just try out new maneuvers that you would like to practice out in the field. Once you have mastered these maneuvers, I guarantee you, your Simulator is going to start collecting dust just like mine.



The only reason why I think these argument has Begin going on is because as a beginner, you have demonstrated your lack of appreciation, your closemindedness, your lack of gratitude, your being full of sarcasm which you have masked by these flowery play with the English language, your lack of tact. You have asked for help like it is an imposition on others. Nobody is obligated to help you but yourself. You have offended a lot of people in this forum that is why you had gotten some bad responses. And when the answers were not satisfactory to you, you gave out insults and sarcastic remarks.

I'm with you Italiano, but I'm not with you. if you know what I mean. You can take the things I've said for what ever its worth to you. I just like to give my 2 cents here. Have a nice day.
Hey guys, if you sincerely think there is merit in helping Italiano, knock yourself out. Otherwise, just talk to each other and just let him watch. He said previously that he will just teach himself anyway. So, let him!!!

[8D][size=4]Hi people

[color=red]Hello "heliopilot32137"

You don't need any help, you are a professor, you know everything.

Why are still not able to do torque roll?

You said:


[8D]It' not the truth. Some people offended me instead of saying intelligent things and answering my questions.

[:@][:@][:@][color=red]PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE AND BURNING FUEL, BURNING FUEL, BURNING FUEL AT THE FIELD

without knowing what to do IS NO USE AT ALL AND IS VERY TEDIOUS.

In fact you still can't do torque roll.

Without simulator you will never fly an helicopter.

Hi american professor. Go away from this topic. You will never be able to teach nothing.

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

Hi Italian-flyer,

If you are still learning 3d where do you get off telling people how to learn 3d flight? Why don't you listen to the pro's who have been flying 3d in the real world for years, and get into your head that the way to learn is pratice, pratice, pratice. It's all well and good to fly on a sim all the time. But it's not real world!!!! No matter how good the sim is it's not real world flying. You may be able to torque roll on the sim but can you do it with a real plane?

I am also new to 3d flying and if you have a sim or not you will never get a manoever right the first time!!! It doesn't matter what it is!!! Did you learn to fly a rc plane in one flight? Probably not!!!!![:@] You more than likely practiced, and practiced, and practiced. That's how you learn. IT's human nature!!! Doesn't matter if your a pro or not. If it's new to you, you need to practice to get it right. Some learn faster than others, but they still practice in some way!!!!!

I got an idea (duck for cover!) how about everyone buys electric 3D planes which dont burn fuel. We fly in a gym, not at the feild and we fly for fun! so we dont practise

god, i excell myself sometimes[>:]

Hmm IT Flyer.....double negative, so you are saying that Heliopilot will always manage to teach people things.

A to you too mr IT

Also I am sure you can learn to fly helis without a simulator.

A simulator is, as said before, a training aid. I have managed so far without one because I want to save money.

[8D]Hi people

[color=blue]Finally the weather is becoming fine.

I'm impatient to fly my real plane "Magic 3D" and to burn a little fuel at the field but, in those videos I've seen, Magic doesn't torque roll.

[&:][color=red]Can this plane do torque roll? Could I see a video?

Thanks a lot.

[&:]Why american professor "heliopilot3213787564539987564" called me "Italiano"?

Is "Italiano" a disparaging word?

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

Yes it can torque roll, but since it's a small model, you will most probably have to use your ailerons to "torque" it round or at least get it going.

And as for the video, that's what the google search engine was made for...

That is an interesting thing to say.... for myself, The simulator has saved me money. I now am able to do things with the real model, because the virtual model allowed me to spend a fair amount of time developing the eye-hand coordination with NO RISK! I would in fact say that in the past 6 months since I have gotten the simulator, I have advanced my skilz ten fold over the previous 3 years!
At $15.00 a gallon, 7 flights per gallon, 18 minutes per flight, that adds up to about 2 hours of stick time per gallon....now divide the $250.00 for the sim by $15.00 per gallon... hmmmm... 16.7 gallons... times 2 hours per gallon... hmmm.... about a total of 33 hours of equivalent REAL MODEL sticktime for the dough I paid for the simulator..... I have logged 5 or 6 times that amount of stick time on the sim since I got it in October. .....That 33 hours of sticktime boils down to about 115 flights.... I am not sure that most people can go that many flights without a mishap.... so doing the math, and considering the risks, it is CO$TING YOU MORE TO NOT have a simulator..... now if you say it just isn't fun for you, OK... I certainly can't argue with that!

drive carefully!!

I just want to give you my opinion. As I've said, it is just an opinion. Didn't I say, take it for whatever it is worth to you? I wasn't imposing like you on other people. You can do whatever you want, I really don't give a hoot. I'm not going to fall for whatever game you're playing. I've wasted my time saying what I have said to you because you didn't understand one thing or you just refuse to understand. You just focused yourself on the negativity about you but you never bothered appreciating the good things I've said about the simulator thus supporting your belief. Why don't you stop wasting time being so defensive and start being open minded so that people will help yoo more.

You're beyond help. As I've said to you: HAVE A NICE DAY! I'm out of here. I have wasted enough of my precious time on you. Please don't bother responding to this. I'm not interested in what you have to say. I bet you're still going to respond, correct? You just can't let this slip by without defending your ego. ADIOS!

[8D][size=4]Hi people

[color=blue]I can't understand English well. Perhaps I have been too severe.

[&:]Perhaps I have not understood well this phrase:



Is there anyone who can translate it in more simple way?

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

Helio means:

If you want to help Italian Flyer, then go ahead. But if you do not want to hlep him, ignore him. He said he would teach him self anyway.

[8D]Hi people

[color=blue][&:]I have misunderstood "heliopilot" 's words.

[&:]I thought that "let him" meant: "you must abandon him".

I beg your pardon, "heliopilot".

[sm=surprised.gif][color=red]I'v seen with more attention M. Leseberg's rolling harriers. The plane is sloping of 20-30 degrees.

[8D]I think no more they are ugly. They would be more elegant if the plane had an attitude of 45 degrees or more, but they are fine.

BRAVO, Mark Leseberg jr.

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

Vittorio: i have found when i rolling harrier if i get my nose too high (45 degrees+) the plane stalls quite badly and the aileron becomes less efective making it mush around the maneuver.

Ian

I can't do rolling harriers, but surely the angle has something to do with the forward speed you want, increase the angle enough and you stop moving. Also you must get to a point where the ailerons become useless like in a TR (as edible engine says). Surely any angle of attack above lets say 15 degrees is a harrier. You are still going to need rudder and elevator to control it. A roll is what happens when the plane is rolling around its datum line, it may be vertical even but its still rolling around its center line. But in a harrier its rolling around a line inclined 15 degrees or more from its flight path.

Ailerons arnt usless in a TR. They rely on propwash unlike in forward motion it it uses its speed. Aierons are actually a vital part of TRing a smaller model with less torque.

and a harrier is classified anything between the angle of stall and the hover. So if your angle of stall is only 20 degrees and your rolling it and going in a horizontal path that its a rolling harrier. if your way past the angle of stall at say for example 50-60 degrees and rolling on a forward path, that is also a rolling harrier.

ian

[8D][size=4]Hi people

[color=blue]Hi Threshold, hi edible_engine

You said:
I have seen a video[link]http://home.tiscali.nl/~wvr/video/silvestri-start-ldg.asf[/link]
of Sebastiano Silvestri (plane: NEW-Funtana S140).

[sm=rolleyes.gif]Are the great movements of ailerons used to opposite torque roll and to keep hovering?

Thanks a lot.

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

yes, that aileron is used to counteract the torque. This keeps it facing one direction, there for easyer to hover as the directions you have to input are always the same. This is the first stage learning the torque roll. Try it, its far easyer

[8D]Hi people

[color=red][sm=thumbup.gif]FERRARI RACING CARS: 1° WINNERS.

[&:][color=blue]Today I've flyed at the field, 5 flights, but there was too much wind. My magic, with little trottle, against the wind looked like a kite.
I have not been able to try hover or torque roll, because the wind lifted the tail.

The simulator has helped me because, when the plane floated down for the wind, I was more ready te react with all the inputs: ailerons, elevator, rudder, trottle.

It's more exciting burning fuel at the field. About that you 3D experts are totally right.

[][color=red]What is the right Center of Gravity for the Magic 3D?

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.