[8D] Hi people

[:@]THIS TOPIC IS NOT FOR THOSE WHO SAY: "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE"

Our slogan is: "LEARNING 3D STEP BY STEP" with intelligence and fun.

[sm=thumbup.gif]THIS TOPIC IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE INTERESTING.

[sm=confused.gif]If I have understood well, to be able to fly 3D we beginners must learn
not to correct the wrong attitudes of our plane - to try to hold it for istance in hovering- but
to avoid its inevitable wrong attitudes with a right and preventive strategy.

IS THIS THE WINNING IDEA?

Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

If I have understood well, to be able to fly 3D we beginners must learn
not to correct the wrong attitudes of our plane - to try to hold it for istance in hovering- but
to avoid its inevitable wrong attitudes with a right and preventive strategy.

Yes, unless you are Data from Startrek, he can always look and react. actually I was referring to a set stick routine for harriers mainly, the key to hovering is trimming the plane for 3d. most people trim the plane for level flight then try some 3d stuff and blame themselves for lousy airplane performance. When I started flying rc if the instructor didn't first trim the plane for me I would crash for sure. since many 3d maneuvers involve high alpha angles of attack lets trim the plane for this and make 3d flying as easy as possible. the problem is you cannot have it both ways, if you want a plane that is trim for straight and level - fly something else for this. The ultimate goal is to have a 3d trim setting to where you can pop into a hover on a day with little or no wind, set the radio down and get a cup of coffee. in order to achieve this you must adjust the thrust angle of the engine. most people will adjust elevator and rudder trim tabs (THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE) Hano Pretner once said if your control surfaces are not zeroed out something is wrong with your airplane. in 3d trim tabs don't remove difficulty just shifts it somewhere else. 3d airplanes with lots of trim are much more sensitive to environmental concerns. My diablotin (the one shown in pic section on this list) has lots of right thrust and lots of down as well, don't be afraid to experiment with huge angles, mount that engine on the side of fuse if required. with larger thrust angles the airplane might be a bit squerly on take off or balloon on landing or wonder at high speed, just keep it slow, you have another airplane for speed. now everyone will be touching the tail in a few days no further practice required. good luck ray

[8D]Hi people

[:@][color=red]THIS TOPIC IS NOT FOR THOSE WHO SAY: "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE" [/clor]

Our slogan is: "LEARNING 3D STEP BY STEP" with intelligence and fun.

[sm=thumbup.gif]THIS TOPIC IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE INTERESTING.

Hi Pizza. You said:

"The ultimate goal is to have a 3d trim setting to where you can pop into a hover on a day with little or no wind, set the radio down and get a cup of coffee. in order to achieve this you must adjust the thrust angle of the engine. most people will adjust elevator and rudder trim tabs (THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE) Hano Pretner once said if your control surfaces are not zeroed out something is wrong with your airplane. in 3d trim tabs don't remove difficulty just shifts it somewhere else. 3d airplanes with lots of trim are much more sensitive to environmental concerns".

I WILL LEARN 3D MANOEUVERS WITH "MODELTECH MAGIC 3D". I HAVE MOUNTED "IRVINE .53" ON IT.
I MUST INCREASE THE RIGHT AND DOWN THRUST ANGLE.
[&:]HOW MANY MILLIMETERS RIGHT? HOW MANY MILLIMETERS DOWN?

WHAT "MIXINGS" DO YOU SUGGEST? []WE ARE BEGINNERS. COULD YOU TELL US THE PRECISE VALUES OF CONTROL SURFACES AND OF "MIXINGS".

Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country

La Pizza, Bella!! Bene detto!!! A simple, yet realistic approach to the physics of 3D. Joe
(regarding thrust)

[8D]Hi people

[:@]THIS TOPIC IS NOT FOR THOSE WHO SAY: "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE"

Our slogan is: "LEARNING 3D STEP BY STEP" with intelligence and fun.

[sm=thumbup.gif]THIS TOPIC IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE INTERESTING

[size=4]I'D LIKE TO SUMMARIZE FOR ALL 3D FLYING BEGINNERS:

[sm=thumbup.gif][color=blue]1 - To be able to fly 3D we beginners must learn not to correct the wrong attitudes of our plane - to try to hold it for instance in hovering - but to avoid its inevitable wrong attitudes with a right and preventive strategy.

[sm=thumbup.gif]2 - we can start learning slow rolling circles by automatic movements. More the rolling circles are slow, more they become harrier rolling circles.

I'm training with REAL FLIGHT G2 and CAP 232. SET UP: "Time multiplier" 40%.
[&:]IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO DO SLOW ROLLING CIRCLES AND TO GO STRAIGHT FORWARD.

Hey, 3D Experts, some suggestions?

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

In order for your slow rolling harriers to go straight rather than turn into rolling circles, it is necessary to delay your rudder or elevator inputs until the surface you are controling is closer to horizontal then hold it until it is past horizontal. If the corective input is put in at 90 degrees to the horizon, the plane will turn first then begin to pull the nose up.

For instance, If your plane is rolling slowly with left aileron input, The right rudder input nedds to be input at about 1/8 th of a roll and held until about 3/8 ths of the roll when you need to input down elevator untill about 5/8 ths of the roll when you need to input left rudder untill about 7/8 ths of the roll when you need to input up elevator to about 1/8 th of the next roll. Continue this for each additional roll.

You are on the right track, you understand that a pre set "automatic" stick routine is the foundation to smooth rolling harriers and other complicated 3d manuvers. Mr. errolw98 describes exactly what is going on technically but in 3d flying there are just too many variables to allow for traditional see and react flying techniques, but this is not necessary. If you want a smooth rolling airplane then you need smooth constantly moving sticks. my automatic stick routine for rolling harriers will break your habit of moving a stick then releasing, or stopping or holding particular values at certain angles of attack. start with your airplane high, stright and level at nearly stall speed - now begin your rolling routine that you have been practicing in the dark at home. when the airplane starts lossing altitude your natural old instinct will be to speed up the right stick movement and or hold more elevator up or down, instead you want to slow the right stick, this will keep the elevator deflected longer where it is needed, slow down your rotation to match your new elevator routine. If you are having big trouble with rudder, try rolling using just ailerons and rudder, catch the airplane on knifedge.

I don't use any mixing or expo, our thumbs work linear so should the sticks, these make 3d more difficult and a set routine impossible. if you insist on expo and mixing you can leave it on your avistar trainer or imac plane. hope this helps, more to follow, ray

Ray is absolutely correct.

I did explane technically what is required for the plane to track straight rather than begin a rolling circle. In my explaination it did sound as if these inputs should be done as a 1...2...3...4 type of movement which would in effect make the plane do what you wanted in a jerky fashion. I forgot to mention that both sticks should be moving in a fluid manor and reach these inputs with the timing of that fluidity. Fluidity of the sticks makes for a smooth flowing aircraft paterns and attitude.

I appologize for the jerky results of my earlier explaination.

Interesting point about liner thumb movement vs exponential radio settings.

[8D][size=4]Hi people

[:@][size=2][color=red]THIS TOPIC IS NOT FOR THOSE WHO SAY: "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE"

Our slogan is: "LEARNING 3D STEP BY STEP" with intelligence and fun.

[sm=thumbup.gif]THIS TOPIC IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE INTERESTING

[&:][color=blue][size=4]"Errol98" AND "Pizza" are trying to help us 3D flying beginners and we thank a lot them

[sm=thumbup.gif]Pizza, you said: "the key to hovering is trimming the plane for 3D"

[sm=confused.gif]Which is the right trimming?

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country

a plane needs to be well balanced to hover, any lateral inbalance will make you job allot harder. A rearward CG make it easyer to hover aswell.

Ian[&:]

[:@]still pure crap - but the ferrari can stay and maybe some pizza - wake up on this, crap!!!!![:-]

Leanardo Davinchi father of planes?

No offense but you better check that one.

There was no real "father". Even the Wright brothers took previous theories and work and improved on them before they achieved flight.

[8D]Hi people

[:@][color=red]THIS TOPIC IS NOT FOR THOSE WHO SAY: "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE"

[color=blue] Our slogan is: "LEARNING 3D STEP BY STEP" with intelligence and fun.

[sm=thumbup.gif]THIS TOPIC IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE INTERESTING

In reply to "Adrian - RCU": Instead of say crap, try to say something intelligent

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country

Yes Zep, Through his drawings and ideas it did earn him the moniker "Father of Flight". Altho this post is entailing 3D, it is on a simulator. Wouldn't it be better recieved in the simulator catagory? Joe

[8D]Hi people

[:@][color=red]THIS TOPIC IS NOT FOR THOSE WHO SAY: "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE"

[color=blue]Our slogan is: "LEARNING 3D STEP BY STEP" with intelligence and fun.

[sm=thumbup.gif]THIS TOPIC IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE INTERESTING

In reply to "ZepPilot": learn to write well: LEONARDO DA VINCI, the man who did the first studies of aerodynamics.


[color=green][size=4]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country

no offence, but please please stop saying this at the start of every post! its driving me crazy! []

Vincitore,superiore, grande o evidenziato designa urlare sull'internet. Lei urlano? Anche, per favore il reapeating di fermata te stesso. Suo e' infastidendo e le persone reagiranno negativamente. Joe

Here's a step for you. Get your g2 disc, your computer and your $99 airplane and take a step off the side of a sheer cliff. Maybe you could use your intense skills you aquired by not practicing and harrier yourself in for a nice 2 point landing.

NO YOUR WRONG< HE'S AN IDIOT PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Lets take a closer look at 3d setup and trim, last year a friend showed up with flip 3d with os50 and wanted me to fly it. I took off and noticed right away something was wrong because it flew hands off straight and level. when I tried some 3d stuff it was too pitch sensitive and very difficult to maintain a hover, in other words it was nose heavy balanced according to plans. we moved the battery from firewall to tail, when I took off for the second time it ballooned into a hover right away, was very stable and predictable for rolling stuff and it flat spined nicely, slowed much better, now it was a 3d plane. I handed it to my friend, he was all over the place, scared to death, he could not land because when he slowed down the nose would go up and stall. I reached over and put in 4 clicks of down elevator trim just for landings and takeoffs, now he made a nice slow smooth landing. I explained to him that 3d type airplanes with 3d setups require that you fly them "ALL THE TIME" there is no resting points in between maneuvers. I convinced him to try again but to fly the airplane at all times as if a servo was stripped. by the end of that day he was doing slow high alpha rolls using just aileron and throttle mainly, he noticed that slow rolls no longer required down elevator inputs when inverted, this freed him up to focus more on rudder inputs on knifedge. by the next weekend he was a completely different person hovering, flat spinning, he was happy like a kid opening gifts on christmas day even though he just turned 55. I see too many 3d planes with big throws - what for - if the airplane is flying on the wing, big throws will just get you into trouble. you need big throws when you start flying on the control surfaces instead of the wing. hope this helps, more to follow, ray

[8D]Hi people

In reply to "cumn thru".

MI DIVERTO A SCRIVERE A COLORI, MI DIVERTO A EVIDENZIARE, MI DIVERTO A USARE GLI SMILEYS, NON STO URLANDO VIA INTERNET, STO SOLO CERCANDO PERSONE INTELLIGENTI. IL NOSTRO HOBBY E' SOLO UN GIOCO, UN DIVERTIMENTO, I MODELLI PER ME SONO COME DEI GIOCATTOLI E MI VOGLIO DIVERTIRE SAPENDOLI USARE BENE

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country

Vincitore, Adesso capisco molto bene. Persone ai utera', va lento, buono fortuna, Joe

I am here, hat in hand, one of imperious nature, to state that I read Victor all wrong. The man is truly fascinated by all the technology, loves to fly and is eager to learn. His sincerity is overwhelming. He needs the continued good advice that he seeks. At this point I will leave that to the experts. My personal appologies to Victor. Joe

BRAVO, ..cumn thru. Now we "3D Beginners" can continue to digest what Ray, the pizza man is sharing with us...

Well maybe now we can get to the business of becoming better at 3D flying. We got some sun today so I took my Flip out for some air time. My express goal was simply to open my mind and try some of the things that have been discussed here in hopes of confirming them or dispelling them.

1. What I now call "The Drill" that Ray shared with us. It does require a bit of visual adjustment at first due to the control surface deflection I have in my plane. In otherwords, I have been burning this "Drill" into my head at full stick movement at home while even with the Expo I had been running only required around half or less stick movement to achieve fluid, controlable harrier rolls. More than that and my plane flies out of the patern. With a small alteration of the timing of the stick movement, a nice relaxing rolling circle results. after one circle, another timing adjustment and back to rolling harrier. Nice tip.

2. Exponential radio vs linear thumbs. My Local 3D mentor has never used exponential or mixes and flies all of the required corrections to get the plane to do some pretty amazing stuff. He started me on exponential to smooth my inexperienced, overreacting thumbs (read that mind) from too much correction in situations where my mind would have a slight panic. We had been weaning me off of exponential slowly and just forgot to further address radio settings some monts ago. I removed all exponential and tried the same "Drill" along with my standard starting routine. It was difficult to not over fly corrections at first due to burning the exponential into my brain but by the end of that flight I was very comfortable without exponential. Exponential only fools your thumbs as to howmuch movement is required to make a plane react a certian amount. It also trains us that it is ok to be a little less than precise when applying throttle because we won't upset the plane with rudder.

3. Plane trim. I have been taught from the beginning to "fly at half throttle and trim your plane to fly hands off straight and level" No one has ever suggested otherwise. When flying 3D, you will fly straight and level for landing and thats about it. I have always run my Flip CG at the rearmost 150mm spec. When flying inverted it requires very little or no down elevator to maintain altitude and when the tank is near empty it needs to be flown all the way to the runnway so it doesn't balloon out of final and stall. No power is required but you have to stay on top of what it is doing and keep it doing what you want. So I think I am fine on CG. I have always built these planes with about 3 degrees of right thrust as well. What I wanted to do was find out what corrections I most have to repeat in a hover and trim accordingly. It was a lot like trimming a helicopter for near hands off hover. After trimming I found myself only correcting for attitude half as much and still about the same for engine torque on throttle inputs. Probably hard to trim for that. It still needs a little more work.

4. Trust. I have always had a lot of trust in my own ability to control the plane. I have found my self in situations where I did not trust which way the plane was going to fall out of the hover. After the trimming session, the plane had a lot more consistant tendencies when it would start to fall out, therfore they were easier to anticipate and react to before they went to far. The result is a steadier looking hover with fewer fall outs requiring throttle and bailout. I did not find myself in any situation that required me to run "The Drill" to regain composure but I can see how it could help.

Great Day Flying.