Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, pra, practice, practicectice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practiceactice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice practice, practice stop thinking you know better than those who have gone before and ignoring good avice freely given.
now go crash a ARTF and see where your steps get you

[8D]Hi Phillybaby

IT IS MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT TO TEACH THEN TO LEARN.

[:@][:@][:@]PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, [:@] SUCK [:@]SUCK [:@] SUCK IS NO USE AT ALL AND

TEDIOUS, VERY TEDIOUS

VITTORIO from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country with intelligent persons (LEONARDO DA VINCI,
THE FATHER OF PLANES).

so what do you do to get better

i paractise

all i can susgest is go read my Cougar review on my site www.philsrcworld.fsnet.co.uk
that will tell you all the thigns i did to get where i am.
thats about as good as it gets.
as for rules about propping up wings with sticks, they suck as it slows the reactions, by the time you think "i'm wheels in, put the stick under the wing to prop it up" your in the floor. thats where the practice comes in, it has to be instinctive.
you want practice... when you goto bed and the lights are out you've got that 20-30 mins where you can't sleep coz your mind is racing. use that to "fly" your 3D plane, your mind can be very creative and you'll find it even better than a sim. as it's the last thing you think of at night it's effect is powerful, i've had students do this and seen a huge improvement when they come back next weekend.
try it, might work for you, or i might just be crazy[&:]

How do you think Sebastiano Silvestri made it to the TOC? Practice.

Chris

Wow!!

Italian Flyer is very passionate about not practicing. Maybe if we called it "Stick Time" or something. Frankly, I think flying is fun. Especially 3D flying. I don't consider it practice, but rather, flying. In any event the result is the same. I get more stick time and continue to try and fly better than the last tank of fuel. The more experiance you gain, at anything, the better you get at it. I don't care if it is flying or trimming trees.

Now, I learned to fly on G2 and my first real plane was a H9 CAP 232. Even though I learned a lot from G2 with the GP CAP 232 version, that plane flew much differently than my real plane. I flew it around about 30 flights before I parked it at high speed and the wrong angle for a glide scope. Ok, I destroyed it on an ugly auggering. My point is that G2 was great for making a lot of the inputs for a planes attitude and path of trajectory instinctive. G2 was also very good for working out and committing to memory an Aresti program to later fly in the real world. But it was not the same as real world flying. I have never had to spend 10 - 12 flights on G2 to get a plane adjusted for perfect flying but have easily spent that time with a real plane to get close to perfect adjustments. Even if you edit the weather conditions and plane parrameters and physics, it will still be different. I have programed all of the numbers for my Flip 3D into G2 and tweeked a lot of the adjustables and it still won't harrier like my real plane.

So, I would say to Italian Flyer, that the first step is to get some altitude in the real world and try to perform what you think you have learned on G2. Use the lessons from G2 that have programed your thumbs or fingers what to do when this or that happens with the plane. Just do not expect the G2 plane and your Magic 3D to do the exact same thing with the exact same inputs. The reality is that it takes a lot of stick time and fuel burning to become completely proficent at 3D flying. Some people take more stick time than others. Untill you get the confidence level up so you can fly out of any situation with the real thing, remember that altitude is your friend.

is this guy for real?? i was actually laughing going through this thread. Italian flyer......GO OUT AND FLY!!! dont practice...just go fly all you can and you will find your self getting better. Keep FLYING the 3d moves, you will get better....Don't practice...just fly...BTW Wright Brothers are the fathers of modern aviation, as is Charles Taylor.

Sean

Well if you want no practice then all I can suggest is get the [link=http://the******************.com/chiphead.html]3d Chip[/link]

Seems kind of radical but probably the most effective for those who don't like the "P" word.

pure crap!!

[8D] Hi people

[:@]THIS TOPIC IS NOT FOR THOSE WHO SAY: "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE".

Our slogan is: "LEARNING 3D STEP BY STEP", with intelligence and fun.

[:@]Dear "Adrian-RCU", you are pure crap because you don't understand.

I REMEMBER TO ALL 3D BEGINNERS THAT MANY YEARS AGO I WASN'T ABLE TO LAND MY PLANE
WITHOUT A CRASH.

FINALLY I KNEW A VERY INTELLIGENT FRIEND THAT TOLD ME: "WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR PLANE
IN FRONT OF YOU, MOVE SLOWLY THE STICK TOWARDS THE LOWER WING".

FROM THAT DAY I LEARNED TO LAND BETTER AND BETTER.

[sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]LITTLE TRICKS SOLVE DIFFICULT PROBLEMS.

[:@]But you, dear "Adrian-RCU", can't understand what TRICKS you use. You can not understand what you do
when you are flying.

IT IS MORE DIFFICULT TO TEACH THAN TO LEARN.

For this reason you can't explain what you do when you are flying 3D.

[8D]IF NO 3D EXPERT CAN SAY WHAT WE MUST DO TO LEARN WITHOUT
"PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE" CASUALLY WITHOUT A METHOD, FOLLOW ME.

I can't do hovering or torque roll, but I'm of the same nationality of LEONARDO DA VINCI.

I HAVE THOUGHT: SINCE OUTDOORS IT'S VERY COOL, WE CAN LEARN WITH REAL FLIGHT G2.
HAVE YOU READ WHAT I SAID UNTILL NOW?

[sm=thumbup.gif]WELL, I HAVE GOT ANOTHER BEAUTIFUL IDEA: THE WIND CAN BE OUR FRIEND.

[sm=biggrin.gif]YES, THE WIND, YOU HAVE UNDERSTOOD WELL. THAT WIND WHICH HELP US
IN LANDINGS WHEN THE PLANE IS NEAR TO STALL.

I ASK FOR HELP TO "Errolw98" (FINALLY AN INTELLIGENT 3D EXPERT).
HOW MUST WE DO TO HAVE THE WIND IN FRONT OF OURSELVES?
IS 20 mph GOOD ENOUGH?

Thanks a lot

Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif] a beautiful country with intelligent persons (LEONARDO DA VINCI, NOT ONLY "GIOCONDA")

Yeah, welcome to AMERICA, inventors of the A-bomb and FIRST airplane.

sean

Seems to me that I-F has a studdering problem. He keeps repeating himself.

Practice is practice, be it on a sim or plane. When you learn it on the sim, you apply the same to the plane and eventually you do it. Not going to happen instantly. Do what Philly says, practice practice practice.

Yo...Vic, There are a few givens here. Yes, Italy is a beautiful country, (the last three words in that statement you will have to sell me on). Yes, Leonardo was a great thinker, but it was his dreams and drawings that earned him the moniker "father of flight". He never attained human flight in his "ornithoptor". Actually he only fully completed a handfull of projects and they were all paintings. He took something that was established in nature and tried to adapt it. He saw a bird fly and thought that was a good idea. Now, actuall flight took place in a beautifull country with intellegent persons, right here in the USA. Self propelled, fixed wing aircraft, now thats a different story. They had an idea, from nature, and worked at it untill they achieved their goal. Know what thats called? PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE !!!! Granted G2 is a great educational tool, but do me a favor and look up the word "simulator" A machine that simulates an environment or application. Can you say SIMULATE? By all means get as much stick time on that tool as you can but it will never replace real time in the air. Your on the right track but its a long and expensive journey with that attitude. And could you do me a favor and knock it off with the cutsie avitars? We're not on a date here. Joe

What's your favorite plane in G2 to practice 3D?

In real life I can hover my Magic Extra 300L but can't seem to do it very well in G2 at all. I also can't get a plane to flat spin in G2, maybe it's just me...

the aerodynamics involved in a flat spin are too complicated for G2.......

sean

Hey Italian Flyer how do you think the Italian champion and my favorite pilot Sebastiano Silvestri made it to TOC, and how do you think he has won almost everything else that he competes in?Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice shoot I'm repeating like you now.
I can almost bet he uses the sim but I can tell you he doesn't rely on the sim for practicing for a pattern contest, instead he goes out to what we call an airfield and flies a remote controll plane.

Chris

Um......Practice

There is no other way. Period..

Doing slow rolls (using elevator and rudder) helped me learn to torque roll better. It gets you used to seeing the plane from different angles and will improve your reactions in a torque roll to keep the plane vertical (at least it did for me). However, to torque roll you need to learn to hover first, and that does need practice. Even with any tricks you might learn from people, you need to PRACTICE these tricks to be able to perform them.

Marcus

THIS IS SAD,[]
the biggest problem in this hobby is that some people that feel so superior, think it’s a joke when somebody has a newbie type question. Didn’t your mothers teach you that if you don’t have something nice to say, keep your mouth shut! I’m not going to name names, but you know who you are, and will probably make your presence known again though some smart-***** remark back at me.
You guys should be ashamed of yourself for jumping on I-F. I think his original point was that he didn't want you smart *****es just saying Practice Practice Practice, because that doesn't help anybody, he wanted to know HOW to practice, sorry I had to give some people a reading comprehension lesson. When you were a student trying to learn math the teacher doesn't just give you calculus and say Practice Practice Practice. (sorry maybe calculus was a bad example, that is a higher math type they teach in college, mostly) You have to learn the fundamentals first. I-F is asking “what are the fundamentals�. So let’s get to his question and stop insulting him and embarrassing the rest of us Americans.

Dear Italian-flyer,
I had this same problem when I started flying aerobatics so here is what I learned the hard way. These are in no particular order:
Get flying buddies, preferable ones that are better than you. You will learn more faster that you ever could on your own.

Learn rolling circles, develops airplane situational awareness (which end is up), first just with elevator then with elevator and rudder, so they are smooth.

Learn harriers, in a breeze may look like hovering (without the Torkin) but it’s not.

Setup is very important on the real airplane:
Get the CG back as far as you can and still fly it smooth. I like my planes so that inverted they require almost no forward stick pressure to maintain level flight.
Build in right thrust or mix throttle to right rudder (that’s a hot Chip tip)
Work out knife edge (KE) coupling: in KE if it tucks or roles out, either mix out the tendency (to both sides) or work on balancing your plane better, like lateral balance and the droop or lift of the ailerons can be changed.
Get the surfaces movin: you need at least 40deg each way movement. I see people use standard servo horns (too short) and drop the clevis on the control horn to close to the surface, you lose stiffness and power that way, get longer servo horns and use stiff pushrods, like carbon tubes, NO 2-56 wire only pushrods should be longer than about 6� on a .46 3D model it will bend. I'm full of this stuff, if you want more just ask I-F.

OK, you want some help... do this.

Just keep trying stuff, that is the way I do it, watch a vid of someone doing something cool, then go out and practice it until you got it nailed. Im working on rolling harriers now, getting close!!

Italian Flyer,
I think I know what it is you need. Here is a simple routine to try. It contains many of the basic 3D movements. Like I said, it is a basic pattern for starters.

Step 1. Fly straight and level away from you at about 100 ft altitude at 1/2 throttle.
Step 2. At a distance of about 75 feet in front of you, pull up elevator till plane achieves a 90 degree vertical up line.
Step 3. Apply full throttle and hold this vertical line very steady with the canopy facing you to about 600 ft altitude.
Step 4. Cut throttle to zero, allow the plane to reach near zero airspeed.
Step 5. At near zero airspeed, apply full right rudder and a quick shot of full throttle to rotate the tail 180 degrees and release rudder and throttle input to zero. you should now have a plane that is facing straight down and the canopy is still facing you at about 625 feet altitude give or take a few feet.
Step 6. Immediatly input full left aileron and roll the plane 3 times. A lot of speed will be generated in a straight down line at this time.
Step 7. When the canopy faces you for the third time, Immediately and simultainously input full right rudder, full up elevator and keep the full left aileron. Your sticks will be both fully down and fully in facing each other. This will flatten out the plane and slow its decent
Step 8. Gradually apply throttle to about 1/2 or more while keeping the surface inputs at the same position. This should further slow the decent and try to level out the plane while still spinning.
Step 9. Slowly release the rudder, then simultainously and slowly release the elevator and aileron buy moving the right stick diagonally from the left bottom to center. about half way through the elevator and aileron release, feed throttle to full.
Step 10. Watch the plane carefuly and make necessary corrections to fly out srtaight and level at 100 ft altitude. If you time the release right you can fly out in any dirrection you want. I preffer from right to left.
Step 11. at 1/3 to 1/2 throttle, input left aileron to about 1/3 or less for a constant 1 roll per second roll rate and input right rudder at the same time. Hold the roll rate and when the plane becomes fully inverted to just past, hold the roll rate and input left rudder. The plane should do a slow roll while turning right and maintaining altitude when the plane returns to upright, maintain the roll rate and input right rudder again. Continue this process until the plane is back to a right to left flight path and return to upright straight and level flight after turning one complete circle.
Step 12 Flying out of last move right to left at 1/2 throttle. Cut throttle, pull sharply full up elevator, stab full throttle and release throttle and elevator when plane is facing straight up. Very little altitud should have been gained. Apply throttle to hold a hover and correct as neccessary to hover the plane.
Step 13. apply throttle and down elevator untill plane is flying straight and level out of the hover.


What you have done if all went well is this:
Step 1 - Step 3. A 500 ft vertical up line.
Step 4 - Step 5. A stall turn.
Step 6 - Step 7. An upright blender.
Step 8 - Step 10. An upright flat spin and fly out.
Step 11. A rolling circle.
Step 12 - Step 13. The Wall to a hover and fly out.

It is nearly impossible for G2 to produce a flat spin or a good stable harrier on any of it's planes. Billy Hell's site has a downloadable plane that he claims will, but I have never flown it. It would be worth looking into. My G2 is blown up right now. There are several other downloadable 3D planes available from various sites. Some better than others.

The upright blender to upright flat spin can be done inverted by applying down elevator instead of up in step 7. That one is my favorite. A good point was made that plane set up is key. Your G2 plane should take full elevator without a snapping out of the move. It should have enough power to hover at 1/2 throttle or slightly less. The control surfaces should have, Elevator and Rudder 55 - 60 degrees and Ailerons 40 degrees or more. To fly 3D on G2, you really need to either know what to change on one of the stock planes like the CAP 232 or Edge 540, or go and download some from the G2 swap page and try them. Also, if you fly a plane with a 60 inch wingspan, visually scale the plane to have a 60 inch wingspan. This size plane has a lot faster movements than when you scale larger. Then when you get the chance to apply this experience to the real world, it won't be a surprize.
Repete these moves untill you can have your vertical upline, blender, flatspin, rolling circle and hover within the same 75 to 100 ft circle at their compleation. Add some of your own to these to extend the routine. At one time I found several articals describing 3D moves on the web written by Mike McConnvlle of TOC fame and now Hangar 9/Horizon Hobby Head of Scale Aerobatics Design.

I hope this was helpful.

G2 sux on 3D.
AeroFly Pro is muchhhhhh better to fly 3D.


Edited by RCU Moderator to remove inappropriate remarks.

learn to use the Quote feature is step one, it'll help us understadn just what your on about, tho to be honest i'm willing to give up, i just wish i was over there to see you so all this prac...sorry, flying on G2, take your plane out and trash it

Use what you have and avoid very much magnification or large scaling. It will translate better when you get to the real world. I doubt seriously if any of the sims are that realistic in 3D but can only comment on G2 as that is what I have flown on and Itallian Flyer is using. I know that G2 will do all of the above mentioned moves with the right plane except the flat spin.

Maybe AeroFly Pro or Super 3D Pilot Enhanced or some other sim is THE best but G2 is what most of us have to work with and there are a lot of cool downloadable planes and schemes for it.