RE: GP Cap 232
 

:)Here's another pic of my engine set up.

Thanks
Barry

RE: GP Cap 232
 

How Fuji engine stacks up vs DA? What impression do you have from Fuji?(I'm not an IMAC type of pilot, mostly hover and TR)

RE: GP Cap 232
 

:)Bubbagates or ?...

I'm mildly disappointed in the RPM of my new DA and also the EVO 45. I want to change props down one size to increase RPM and thereby hopefully a little bit of thrust. Because these propellers are so expensive I don't have the luxury of buying 4 or 5 and just trying them.

Here's my situation:

DA50= NX22x8. If I want to drop one size do I go 21x8 or 21x10? Which is just one step down?

EVO45= NX21x8. Is it 20x8 or 20x10 that is just one step down.

Thanks for your opinion.

Barry

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Depends on your definition of "step":D. Going down an inch in diameter while going up two inches in pitch like your suggesting with the DA will probably not net you much of a change. There are a lot of formulas around for determining "equivalent" prop sizes, but I have always found that diameter change makes a lot more difference than pitch changes. I ran a 22x8 on my Brison 3.2 for awhile, then changed to a 21x8, both NX props. Engine was much happier; it's a big change in load. Same with your Evo, I would suppose. I'd try the 20x8 rather than the 20x10 if you are trying to pick up some RPM and get better response. My opinion, your mileage may vary....

RE: GP Cap 232
 

:)SitNFly...

My goal is to increase about 400 RPM. On both engines with those props I could use another 2-400 RPM. I don't want to under prop too much either. This is my first gas experience and I'm green with this. I figured the drop in diameter would make the most difference but I don't want to increase 800 RPM either so I'm struggling with which one would give me about 400 RPM

Thanks
Barry

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Barry,

Sorry, I went to bed early.

SitNFly is correct.

Stay with the "8" pitch and go down 1 inch in diameter. going to a 10 pitch while dropping to a 20 or 21 inch will still give you the same load on the engine.

I would also lose the NX prop and go with the PT Models if you can, they are around 55 bucks from Troybuilt models. They are a little narrower blade then the NX, rougly the same weight (something like 1 ounce heavier) and way more pull plus quieter

I started with a NX22X8 on one of my DA's and did not like it, went to the PT models and have been using them since.

Another is the ZM line of props that RCShowcase sells. I saw a new MVVS 58 turn a ZM 23x12 at 7300 and take this Cap out of a hover like it was a foamy. This was whaturi's Cap before he changed it to a glow.

What's your altitude and rpm reading with the current props

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Sorry Blockbuster, I just saw this post

The fuji did well but it did not stay on the plane long enough for me to really answer this question. About flight 5 or 6 it deadsticked on me, (not the engines fault) and I landed it off field and snapped the front end off.

I can tell you that it had decent vertical using a PT models 20X8 but the APC 20x8 they recommend was a dog for a prop and is really heavy, held KE just fine, flew inverted just fine, tumbled very well. The Fuji is a precent decent engine. My guess would be it would hover and TQ it just fine but you would have no room for error. If you really want to have good 3D power and want to use gas, use the DA50. Cut out the floor under the canopy, lose the spinner and pants and use li-ion batteries and replace all the stock controls rods with either Titanium or CF control rods and use ball links on the servo side of the rods and use Gorilla glue on all the hinge points and when joining the wing and I'll bet you could see 13lbs on a DA50

Gorilla glue is much lighter than epoxy. one ounce of epoxy is 4 ounces in weight, one ounce of GG is one ounce of weight and you will use roughly 4 ounces of each when assembling this plane

RE: GP Cap 232
 

:)bubbagates...

My elevation is 4800'

DA w/ NX22x8 (15 min run time on new engine) 6690 RPM = +/- 21 lbs thrust
EVO w/ NX218 (2 gal thruough it) 6750 RPM = +/- 19lbs thrust.

I'd like both engines to spin up to 7000 RPM if I can. The EVO flys the Cap very nicely but I still think there's some more thrust in there somewhere. Anyways, I like to try a prop change and see. Too bad the 21x8 won't go over on the DA for a try (drill pattern is different).

I'll order a PT from TBM. Like I've said before...I'm brand new to the gas thing. Still learning.

Thanks for all your advice. I respect your opinion.

Barry

PS. Headed out right not to maiden my Airwild. Yea!!!!!

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Actually, those are pretty respectable for 4800 feet

I have done this going from a DA bolt pattern (4 bolt) to a 3W bolt pattern (6 bolt) but I do not think you could go the other way, It would be nice so you could test it.

It does take some time to learn all the little things, just like when you started in glow, but once you see "the pattern" it gets tons easier. When I was learning to tune the needles, I praticed on my weed eater. Now I have the best running weed eater around ;)

I appreciate the repect

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Yes, Gorilla glue is great at everything you mention above , and you can add to benefit that it is also flexing and epoxy is brittle. The only draw back, it expands when it dries, so scale appearance is sloppy, but who cares how it looks on the ground if it flies great.

I would not use anything other than Li-ions since battery capacity is greater, battery pack is lighter, at 6v servos are stronger and faster.

I use CF slivers over 4-40 rods this combo worked good for me with ball links.

So, ahhh, the only thing I need to get is: DA-50R, GP CAP232 and 5645mg on ailerons, 5625mg on elevators and 5955tg on rudder and I'll good to go:D

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Dump the 5645's, they are more weight, not near as fast and less torque than the 5945 or the replacements that just came out which I think is the 5985's but the 5645's are cheaper. You could use the 5955 on the rudder but you really do not need it. I'm using 5945's all around and they are more than enough on Li-ION at 6V.

I'd love to have 5955's everywhere as my 5945's are getting sloppy again. Maybe some day they will come out with titanium gear sets for the 5945

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Point taking. Yes, I think CAP airframe in general does not have a madly giant rudder, in proportion to other control surfaces, like Yaks and other none dihedral airframes do.

Did any one tried Knife Edge Loop on CAP?

I just compares 5945mg vs new 5985mg for the same price new 5985mg comes out as a little underdog against 5945 in weight, and strength, timing the same on both servos 0.13sec.

RE: GP Cap 232
 

:)Yes...I've tried a KE loop.

My CAP does such a nice KE and has so much rudder authority that the KE is easy. I can get it to go up and over and that's where it gets sloppy, on the downward half. I think it's just me but I get it crossed up coming back down. But it will stay on it's side the whole way and doesn't wash out.

I agree with bubba on the 5645s. They are no whre near the seros the 5945 is. Although about $25 cheaper they are the servos to get. That said, I use them (because I have them) on the aileron surfaces. I think that is the surface that needs the least. I sometimes can feel that they haven't come exactly back to center but I'm willing to accept that. I have about 12 of the 5645 and use them on my UCDs, Ultra Sticks, and the ailerons on my CAP. I think they are a decent servo but I definently up grading to the new 59XX as I can. Now I have about 12 of those too but I have to budget them into my planes. They go first on the rudder and then the elevators, then the ailerons if I ever get there.

You'll like the CAP.
Thanks
Barry

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Block,

Just keep the throws by the book. At first it will look like there is not enough elevator but they are hugely powerful. I think I'm using something like 1/2 inch on low rates and it's more than enough to pull a very tight 90 degree turn to vertical and do some very violent tumbles.

I have also done a KE loop and my first pinwheel and it holds just fine

RE: GP Cap 232
 

At sealevel with a DA-50 and PT 22X8 I got as high as 7200 RPM on the ground on the first tank. You should get 6900-7000 with this prop at 4800 feet. I also had a DA at 6800 feet where I live and got 6800 with a BME22X8 on the first few tanks.
You may want to look at your muffler, too. I recommend the stock muffler over anything else. If you are using a Bisson, you are choking a good 2-300 RPM out of your engine. You can make that better by cutting off 1/2" from the exhaust tips. If you are using a slimline it isn't as bad but still not as good as the stock muffler, IMO.

RE: GP Cap 232
 

:)bodywerks...

I'm hoping, that maybe the RPM will pick up a bit. I'm running both engines very close to the proper lean out. I've heard you don't really have to run the gasser overly rich. So I'm peaked and backed off an 1/8 or maybe a little more.

I'm running the Slimline on the DA and the EVO pitts style on the EVO. The Slimline is still too loud I feel. The EVO muffler is nice and quiet. About 96 DBAs at 10'. I think that's what the AMA has for a noise limitation. I know our field is starting to monitor noise levels. They are trying to be proacitve and catch the restriction before it is mandated. Last year it was 92 DBA but they increased it to 96. The EVO passed, right on the number. I haven't measured the DA yet. But, I'm fearful it won't pass, even with the Slimline. I don't think DA should make an engine and muffler that doesn't meet the AMA standard. With a little good design work they could keep the power and go to quieter mufflers. I wonder if they ever heard of tuned muffers. ALA motorcycle industry. Of course I wouldn't want them to look at NASCAR who is an absolute disgrace in this area. I went to a race in Pheonix a few years ago. You couldn't even hear yourself think. Ruined the experience for me. And as stupid as this sounds, they use restrictor plates to slow the cars down yet allow them to go unmuffled. I hope with all my heart we never get any NASCAR nerds involved with our RC industry. It would surely ruin it. Noise will be the next hurdle, like it or not. I think DA ought to take that to heart as a leader in the RC engine industry and quiet their motors down. Of course I don't want them to lose power in the process, I want it both ways. The motorcycle industry has proved it can be done.

For now, I feel I must accept the 200 RPM loss for the sake of noise control. I am pretty pleased with the performance with both my gas engines but I'm worried I won't be able to fly the DA at my perferred field.

Thanks
Barry

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Barry,

I'm privledged every year for the last 12 years to be a guest in a skybox at the racetrack for speed weeks in Daytona Beach and have flown/met several Nascar and Busch drivers/mechanics that fly anything from glow on up to GS as well as glow powered cars and trucks.

Eddie Hill, John Force and a few others from the NHRA also fly as well.

My point is in every case the planes were professionally built running tuned pipes and cans and they are aware of the need to have quiet powerful engines. A race car is a totally different thing.

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Barry,

DA have a tune pipe, as well "Troybuiltmodels" and "Chief Aircraft Inc" sells cans and headers for DA. It will cast you an arm and a leg, but performance parts for DA are available. I also think "Chip Hyde" makes headers for DA. Most of the models that come out this year like: Aeroworks(their "Quick Build" line) and Aviation models(TOC) have a canister and tune pipe channels build in their models, but unfortunately "GP CAP 232" not one of these models, so you might have to modify your CAP. It would looks like size 40 model with a chrome tune pipe on the belly(well an engine will pick up some power a long the way too), I hope it helps.

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Barry,

I wonder if a Vess prop would help you out. I've got a few coming this week. I'll put one on my Cap and let you know what I think. I currently fly the PT models CF prop (22X8) and love it so I'll be able to give you some good input

http://www.vessaero.com/

RE: GP Cap 232
 

:)I mean no disrespect to the NASCAR guys or NHRA guys at all. I know Eddie Hill flys. He has some videos out on the YS website. Looks pretty good actually.

My comments are not at the drivers, my comments are directed to the rules committee. NASCAR in particular has a habit of changing the rules basically continually. For instance if Jeff Gordon or Dale Ernhart JR. won 3 or 4 races in a row the rules people would evaluate why and make changes to his car. Either add weight or reduce the spoiler or something to bring him back to the field. And again I can think of no reason why you would use restrictor plates to reduce HP to keep speeds down (probably a good idea) and allow the cars to go on unmuffled. It is a proven fact, that if you introduce a rule...say to limit the DBA rating to 105 or something that the crews would design a muffler system that would still make the horsepower and be quieter. We went through that phase with the unmuffled 2 stroke motorcycle engines in the 70s. Everybody said if we quiet them down we just as well not race. The HP just won't be there. Well, it only took one or two years and the bikes were quiet and just as fast or faster than before. But NASCAR is even worse because they presently reduce the HP anyways. Yet they do it on the wrong end or the engine. If they just limit the sound the cars make to some more reasonable level it would immediately help with the restrictor plate races and eventually I'll bet they'd still have to use a restrictor plate to keep the speeds down because the teams would find a way to develop the HP even with muffled engines.

My belief is the same for NHRA. They often (at least in top fuel and funny car) detune the engines to meet traction. Rarely, if ever do they use all the HP available to the car. Why not make it quieter? And what's the big deal anyways if they only ran 305 MPH instead of 320 MPH. Would the racing be and less interesting? I don't think so.

Anyways, I didn't want to get on a soap box and I certainly didn't want to imply in any way that I didn't want NASCAR drivers or anyone else for that matter to not share our wonderful hobby. But my personal opinion is that NASCAR rules committees have do a lousy job on noise level, they are a disgrce to the sport and ought to implement a noise level right away.

But I'm sure all this will fall on deaf ears.

Thanks
Barry

RE: GP Cap 232
 

:)Back to the topics of interest...

That Vess prop looks interesting. I'm curious though...Is there really much difference between a 22x8 prop and another's 22x8 prop? You mentioned the carbon fiber PT props gave more pull. Can they do that without loading the engine too much? My engine is already got a little too much load. I'd like to pic up the Rs a bit not slow it down.

Anyways...I'm learning as fast I can, but it seems like a long process.

thanks
Barry

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Barry,

Just hang on until close to the end of this week. Once I have the Vess props, I'll post some numbers and flight experience, then you decide if you want to get a new prop.

Now the differences in these props are subtle but good ones. They are more of a variable pitch prop meaning they change pitch from the hub to the tip. I spoke to Bob from Vess this morning asking him some questions. Basically he said you can install a Vess prop and end up with more engine load but have much more thrust.

Time will tell

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Barry,
A HUGE part of noise is it the prop, not the exhaust. For what it's worth, I have stock mufflers on my BME 110 and a CF prop and it is almost too quiet for me, and that's even on asphault ground. In the air it might as well be electric. The point behind pitts-style mufflers is not to quiet the engine even more over a stock muffler, they are just to have a more scale appearance and to add weight.
Also, tuned mufflers pretty much won't help 2-strokes - they are an entirely different animal than any 4-stroke NASCAR or motorcyle engine. At the very best, they would be called cannisters - we already have them, and they may restrict less than stock mufflers and some have been known to improve RPM, but they are by no means considered a tuned muffler.
Also, you are right about gassers not needing to be run overly rich to break in. The richer oil mixture which is usually a more abrasive oil is what breaks in the engine. With that said, 1/8 turn might actually be too rich. I tune for max RPM and back it off by about 100-150 RPM, which is usually only about 1/16-turn.

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Another cause of noise is the airframe itself. Vibrations cause the covering to act like a drum, exhaust stacks cut to just exit the cowl can cause reverb within the cowl, loose fitting cowls, canopy hatches and a host of other things.

I had once had a Yak that (I will not mention the brand) the canopy hatch was very loose fitting. After the engine was running it was very loud and I was running a canister. I thought this bites, I spent all this money on a custom exhaust and it made no difference. Well needless to say I placed my hand on top of the canopy for balance and the plane got really quiet. I was never able to really get the hatch to seal tight enough without breaking it (very cheap balsa).

My current Yak is extremely quiet. On the ground at idle you cannot hear it 10 feet away, run it up to full throttle with the PT prop on it and it's at 90Db, replace the prop with an NX and now at full throttle it's close to 96db and all with a header and KS tuned pipe.

In the air, the saitos are louder than mine. We took a Saito 100 running an APC prop vertical with me going vertical and we could not hear my plane. I'm told the Vess props are even more quiet than the PT models. I'll know later this week how true that is

RE: GP Cap 232
 

Hey Guys,i i have bought one of these planes about 3 months ago and slowly putting it togethor i was just curious to see if we all have had the same probs with this plane i.e
Putting the one piece wing on is So very tight Do u guys have the same problem.?? i had to take a few shims out to fix this,
umm also im setting up the rudder i have a hitec 5955tg and in this packet they came some servo arms i was wondering if i should use the biggest one that is in the boX it is 7cm long its not as big as the arm that comes with the arf. im going to be doing all out 3d and not sure if this arm will give me maximum Throw ( 6")
thanks guys all ur help would be great