Matt, your desertation about insurance and its direction toward autos, while interesting, was slightly off mark. The one and only reason for insurance, regardless, is simply to avoid R I S K!! To put it another way, financial ruin. The risk of one's own loss. The reason it is required for autos is to insure the responsiible party, in the event of accident, is financially able to compensate for damages and injuries they caused. At the same time your mortgage holder for either your auto, boat or home requires you to provide insurance to protect their linterest in the event of a cotastrophe or loss. The sole reason insurance is required in model airplanes is to avoid the risk of injury you might cause and be unable to respond to the damages. Since individuals are unable to reasonably purchase such insurance on their own, AMA provides that service, in addition to the many other services. In short the one and only reason for any type of insurance regardless is to compinsate loss thus avoiding the potential of financial ruin. From what I read here there are those who really could care less if they cause injury to others and more than likely would be financially unable to compensate for the damages they cause. Perhaps it is that attitude that causes government and to a certaain extent AMA, to require insurance. It is unfortunate there are those who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions thus requiring government or AMA to force the issue. But government force is an issue for another time.

Interesting twist. Or should I say interesting stretch. I don't recall seeing posts where people said they "really could care less (probably meant couldn't care less) if they cause injury to others" or that they "would be financially unable to compensate for the damages they cause."

"government and to a certain extent AMA, to require insurance."

"requiring government or AMA to force the issue."

I did not know AMA was so powerful.

Kurt

As I understand it, here in Texas you can opt out of buying auto insurance if you can assure that you are financially able to compensate for any damages.

that you can.
you can post a bond. forget the value of the bond, but it aint cheep.
lotta big corps do that for their company vehicles.
Halliburton, Schlumberger, folks like that.

I had no idea that having a couple million dollars of insurance that would cover toy airplane liabilities*
is now somehow considered "refuse to accept responsibility for their actions"
solely by that insurance being from The Hartford or LLLLLoyds or any other non-AMA brand insurance provider

*(re STL & Hartford)



Here is a concept for ya:
Perhaps folks with insurance for their toy airplanes
shouldnt be admonished as "refuse to accept responsibility for their actions"
just because they didnt use YOUR favorite brand insurance company ....I mean magazine publisher ... I mean modeling org

JT
back in the 80s in California,
you could post a $35k bond to the DMV and drive on that in lieu of insurance.
When you are done driving (presumable decades later) you turn in your license and get your bond money back



So yes,
You put up $x and get $x back
= decades of driving without insurance for 'free'.

Are you freaking delusional man!! !!!!!!!!!! This has got to be the most IGNORANT statement I have read on these forums since joining over 8 years ago. It's your kind of propaganda that turn people away from the AMA. You have to be kidding me! I have been building and flying models well over 30+ years, and can assure you that YOUR contribution to the AMA has in NO WAY guaranteed my success and ability to fly remote control models when I choose to. What country are you in, North Korea?

+1

Because 'accepting responsibility for the safe operation of their models' directly translates to 'Buy AMA insurance'.


Riiiiiiight.


Look, pal, you may need to buy insurance in order to operate your stuff safely, but not everyone does. I have no problem doing so without. I don't want to injure someone with my RCs, the blood stains the covering and doesn't do the engines any internal favors, but that doesn't mean I need to send sixty bucks a year to a bunch of bureaucrats. I've been operating my glow powered cars for seven years now and I haven't even so much as stubbed a toe or burnt a fingerprint with them.


Operating RCs safely isn't rocket science.


I don't need a card in my wallet and a magazine spamming up my mailbox to accept responsibility for my actions. I'm independent enough to do that on my own, don't need my hand held every step of the way.

378,
So you are self insured or can post bond. Mind if I ask what insurance company holds you liability insurance?

Regards
Frank

What happened in the 80's stayed in the 80's:-) Nowadays you would need a bond in the order of millions, just think the damage and deaths you can cause with a car...

But the fact is that if you have a home, and you have homeowners insurance, you can get a umbrella coverage on that and be covered by a couple of millions. So you would be safe to fly at some farmer's, aunt or friend's field. If something happens, they will sue you, and your umbrella will respond defending you and paying for your actions. So, risk averted.

But, that will not change the fact that private clubs might ask you to own AMA's insurance. Or IMAA membership on top and above the AMA membership. And then, the club membership fee when you register, and then the annual fees, but that is another story.

Gerry

I don't need a card in my wallet and a magazine spamming up my mailbox to accept responsibility for my actions. I'm independent enough to do that on my own, don't need my hand held every step of the way.

[/quote]


BS, that's a load of poop. Accidents happen, and you cannot accept the responsibility because you do not have the funds. You know it, we all know it. In our hobby accident happen for many reasons, bur in some instances you cannot blame the operator. I still remember a 1/3 scale Fly Baby incident, quadra powered, that lost control at our field. No radio, the thing was moving around erratically and missed one of the member cars when it crashed.

I lost control of a trainer once (mechanical issue), and, again, it crashed close to parking area. You do not know when something can happen. And if you fly in a farm, with no one around, let's face it the chances of an accident are really small (one that causes damage). But in a club... where you have a lot of people? No you would not fly in our club w/o AMA insurance nor would you fly in any of the clubs I know w/o one.

1)People that drive around a car should have insurance. Unfortunately there are a lot of loosers that drive around w/o insurance and we have to pay for those too.
2)All the people that live in this country should have medical insurance. Why do I (and the rest of the taxpayers) have to pay for their free use of the ER for any problem they have? Not only do we have to pay for them, they use the most expensive form of medical care in the world. If you ever went to an ER you know what I am talking about. Most likely you never did.

Even good pilots cause mid airs. Accepting responsibility is not just saying: Yes, it is my fault. It includes doing right your wrong (paying for the damage you caused). And since people can cause much more damage than the funds they have available (or much more than they are worth), you have insurances that cover that risk for ya'



Gerry

Gerry is right.

Society has moved into an era where people aren't expected to take independent responsibility their own life. About gone are the days when people would provide for themselves the level of protection they felt was needed, whether health, accident, property, liability, income or even life insurance…maybe even a gun. LOL

Most people now would just rather defer those responsibilities to some higher authority. To many people now would rather have a communally based system that everyone must participate in to share responsibilities. The current President got elected understanding that new philosophy. Probably won't work and is against everything American but nevertheless communism is an easy concept to give in to…it seems to make so much sense…well, to some...

Well, I cannot talk for things that happened long time ago. But I can say that most people a) COULD NOT afford to pay for the damage they might cause or b) they might afford it (people w/a couple millions laying around) but might not think it is a good idea (example car insurance, health insurance, etc.) Let's face it you CANNOT take independent responsibility (make good) because 90% of Americans do not have the resources. So stop dreaming along those lines:-)

In our area 2 days ago a car run over a man in his bicycle, killing him, and then he made a run for it. They got him, drunk and I bet w/o insurance. The thing is the insurance helps these people (the victims). 2 years ago I needed a stent put in an artery. A $42,000 expense in 8 yours:-) That's why I buy insurance. Most people cannot provide for their health w/o insurance when a simple one hour procedure like an endoscopy costs thousands of dollars. Besides, the level of protection the "one felt is needed" might not be the level of protection really needed by the people you might hurt.

I have been in business over 2 decades, own my company, and I have some idea of what insurances cost:-( Also, I have some good idea what NOT having it can cost you, after all, this is the MOST litigious society there is.

Gerry

Gerry,

I really regret hearing about that incident you just cited. I hope the man on the bicycle had his own insurance..to the level that benefited him...because if your bet is right, he is going to need it. FWIW that particular case is the very reason people shouldn't rely on others IMO...there will always be those instances... yet the philosophy of being reliant on others is very dominant now.

Doesn't make good sense to those that are wholly responsible for ourselves. I buy the insurance I need and couldn't care less what others have...my insurance companies will take care of them one way or another. That's what I pay them to do...I'll be just fine...or as good as God allows...

BTW I would never present an AMA card to a ER if hurt at the flying field. I don't think that would go over well...LOL

Unfortunately the poor man died, he had 3 children. I saw it last night in the news. A lot of people in our area cannot afford car insurance, so they drive anyway, and then they attempt to run (or just run) if there is an accident. Of course uninsured drivers is one of the reasons those of us who do HAVE insurance have to pay more...

Having Medical Insurance, is what counts if you have an emergency. I do not think anybody suggested using the AMA card in case you get hurt at the field. Unfortunately last year my mom was very ill, and I ended having to take her twice to the ER. Let me tell you, it is quite an experience... an experience you do not want to repeat. I am no MD, but I bet most of the people in that packed waiting room could have been seen elsewhere, but for them the ER is free, and the only place they can go I guess. The bills (yes, in plural, you get 3, 4 or even 5 diferent bills) are just unreal...

Gerry

348, I think you are missing something here. No card, magazine or association will make you a safe flier and, sadly, nobody really cares if you burn your thumb. In fact, to simplify matters, let's leave the AMA out of the discussion for now.

The concern is over your ability to pay for any damage caused by you or your model to others. As I will explain, this is of benefit to you as well as any potential injured party.

I fully realize that you display consummate skill and immaculate judgement in all things. Still the unprodictable can an does happen. Mechanical failure of even the most expertly and carefully maintained device. Vagrities of weather. You coukd be bitten by a snake nd momentairily distracted. A nearby asteroid strike could kick up dust obscuring your vision. Any one of thousands of things could cause your moded to do damage or injury, perhaps a mile or more from the launch site.

This is important to you because in today's litigious society you will almost certainly be held liable by a court of law. You could be held liable for an amount far in excess of the actual damages.

"Not to worry," you say. $ I don't have $60.00 to pay for insurance, so they sure can't get$387546.00 out of me to pay for little Suzy's therapy."

No they can't. They can garnish your wages, take your truck and come up with a thousand ways to make your life miserable.

Just a couple of reasons not to blow off the idea of some kind of liability insurance,

jess

.

Hey Init4Fun,
remember when we had this exchange:
"... this is why internet discussions are so difficult..."
"... Reading around the AMA forum sometimes aint the easiest to find such info out..."


One guys posts that CA had a $35k bond option in the 80s,
While another posts that NOW the CA bond option is 'millions'





oh, for what its worth,
what CA DMV says today- http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures...cts/ffvr18.htm

well, by some folks standards...

If that dead father didnt have his own life insurance / bicycle insurance / toys insurance
then he was failing to take responsibility
.... if he had simply manned up and carried $2.5mil life/bike/toy insurance, his responsibility (to provide for his family) would have been met quite nicely... but folks here want to say failures like that are his fault and his not taking responsibility


Of course, I dont see it that way.
But you guys already knew that.

Yes, I see, it was the victim's fault. He could have known when this drunk person would drive over him, and then into the parked cars. I'm out of here this comment is beyond idiotic (or lunatic) whatever. Carry on, please, do not let me interfere with this level of sharp reasoning.

Gerry

no GK,
you dont get life insurance in case you get killed by a drunk, while on a bicycle, next to parked cars, on a tuesday, between 6 and 11

you get life insurance
in case you get killed by SOMETHING (odds are it will be something that kills you)

If you have the responsibility to provide for a family,
then the responsible thing to do is to carry life insurance.

It was YOU that wanted to harsh folks that dont take responsibility (re insurance)
hmmm, lemme just make sure
yup, there you are disparaging them
... THEM that dont take responsibility and carry insurance to take care of what they need to pay


Just because YOU want to waffle,
and flip from disparaging folks that refuse to insure to protect strangers
to now defending the guy that 'refuse'd to insure to protect his family,
dont get mad at me for observing your (using your terms) 'beyond idiotic (or lunatic)' waffleflop on responsibility

[quote]ORIGINAL: GerKonig


While the victim certainly couldn't be expected to know the date and manner of his death, it takes no advanced degree in actuarial science to know the sad event WILL occur at some time and that time may well be far sooner than expected. One of the many reasons we insure aganst the unexpected. We can always budget for the known.

Sometimes risk management goes beyond holding the rail while descending the stairs.

jess

What are you talking about?
Where in his posts did GerKonig do this?

What happened to the original question, "Why did you join AMA?" It seem it has just about come full circle critizing any and all comments regardless of what they are. Personally, I think there is always some who would complain if they were being hung with a new rope. As for me I think AMA has done and outstanding job over the 75 plus years or however many it has been. They have encouraged and promoted model aviation throughout the world through both war and peace. I personally do not think model aviation would be what it is today had it not been for AMA, but like almost anything there is always those who can find fault, whether it is real or imigined. One has to wonder how many of us would have insurance to compensate for any damage or injuries we might cause in the operation of our aircraft had it not been for the forward thinking of past AMA leaders? When I first joined AMA back in 1979 it was just an expense. Today I gladly post my current AMA sticker.

Hey! I am in favor of purchasing life insurance. I think you are bringing a very different issue to the table here. Besides, (since you bring it up) were did you find out the victim had no insurance?

It really does not matter. From the legal point of view, the killer will have to do good all the bad he/she caused. It does not matter if the victim (the person this irresponsible life form killed) has or not a family, children, insurance or a condo at the beach. Nothing at all will count. Those are 2 different issues.

So, if you cause a lot of damage, be prepared to correct the bad caused. Since on the average people do not have the money, they are forced to buy insurance to drive the cars. (Granted, with some exceptions, but they are limited to some states)

You do not insure to protect strangers, you insure for the risk YOU run of causing damages to third parties. Obviously, some think that if you damage or kill someone you bear no responsibility, and are not liable. Well, just pray it will never happen to you because you will be hled responsible in a court of law, and you will be liable.

This is such a weird and bizarre argument it is beyond my comprehension. Unless you are deliberately defending the indefensible just to start an argument (by definition being a troll, I think that is the term). If that is the case, touche, well done. If not, have fun:-)

Gerry