J_R, I'm confused. earlier in a post you said that the AMA sent a copy of the insurance policy to the club and the landowner this spring, Now you say that you agree with me that the AMA need to publish the policy. I assume you called Carl and found out different? I have talked to Carl, his statements to me are what caused my concern.

J_R. lets lay down the guns and work tword a common goal. Myself and others what to know what our coverage is, we want proof in writing. We don't want specualtion. we don't want a "he said she said" when we have a claim. We don't like surprises. We need to know whats covered, what is limited, and what is excluded. We need the policy language. Ask anybody and they will tell you the main reason they joined the AMA is for the Insurance. Don't you agree that we deserve to know without any speculation what our coverage is? Please J_R you seem pretty tite with the AMA. lets get this done so we can put the subject to sleep because It won't go away.

What is so difficult about putting a copy of the policy on the members site? By not doing so they give the impression they are hiding something. (Maybe they are)??????

John

jrjohn

I wrote that not knowing you were in the insurance business. I have always used the term policy when discussing AMA coverage because people, in general, have an understanding of the general meaning. What the AMA sent was a 'Site Certificate' to the clubs and to the landlords of clubs that chose to spend a few dollars to get it. The certificate is not a policy, per se, it is issued by the AMA under the terms of the manuscript policy. That is the main difference. With the manuscript policy the AMA has the authority to write and send the certificates. If they were to actually write a policy, they would be forced to be an insurance company.

As I posted before, I have communicated with some on the EC about putting the policy up on the AMA web site. Now, your not going to like the next part, and my information is not absolutely current (six weeks old +/-). The AMA does NOT have a copy of the new policy from the new insurance company yet, or didn't the last time I checked. The policy is binding, but has not been reduced to writing because of the many unusual features in it. The bid came in and was accepted by the AMA, literally, at the last minute. The AMA was prepared to fund the captive they had put in place in case that became the only reasonable alternative. The EC had their backs to the wall.

As far as hiding anything, I really do not believe that is the case. With the exception of folks that do not understand that the personal coverage is secondary, if they have other insurance, I have never even heard of a claim being denied. Has anyone else?

They certainly have paid some claims that they could have rejected. Several EC members are proud of saying that no claim has ever been rejected for lack of an AMA number on or in a plane, for instance. I would not want to be the individual in a catastrophic accident that did not have a number in my plane, however.

It is an unfortuante fact that the AMA is viewed by a majority of it's membership as an insurance company. One can try to blame it on clubs because most clubs simply tell new members that they must be a member of the AMA for the insurance. At the same time, things that used to go to members, such as a rule book or membership manual are sent on request. It is an effort to save money, and it was apparent that no one reads the information they contained anyway. No one reads Model Aviation Magazine, where there is information to be had. The web site has an amazing amount of information on it, IF you know where to look. It is something less than user friendly. The search feature sucks. I digress. The AMA must find a way to communicate. (please forgive the generalizations)

As far as being "tight" with the EC, I have to laugh. Some of the lower officials have written to the EC labeling me as an AMA basher and in particular of "thumping" the EC. I have absolutely no offical standing. Anyone can write to them or call them and get an answer. Some EC members are more outgoing than others, to be sure. As I said, I have made suggestions, some have come to fruition, some have not.

Your posts here have been well done, and my guess is that they will be read by some on the EC and the subject discussed at some level.

JR

J_R I was told the same thing about not having a policy by Carl M. about 3 weeks ago.

Not having a copy of the policy our club had questions about what was covered. I gave Carl and example of a claim, I wanted to know if the situation was covered. His response to me was shocking to say the least. (maybe only shocking because I'm in the Insurance Business) Not happy with the wishy washy answer I asked for a copy of the contract, he told me it would cost 5 bucks. When I agreed to pay the 5 dollars he then told me they didn't have a policy yet.

Its for reasons like this that people are talking about getting their own insurance and leaving the AMA.

People don't mind spending money for something if they atleast know what it is and can realize the value.

whats this about having a number in an airplane??

I don't like surprises and I feel like I have one coming which is exactly why I want to see the policy language.

John

Yo!!! People!! You join because there is not one club that I know of that will let you fly at that field with out a valid AMA card. Should that happen and you fly into someone {godforbid} the clubs' field is at stake because we live in a sue your butt society. Call the $58 an ante or whatever but get over it already. If you think that's too much money...well you are in the wrong sport and need to think about doing something safer and cheaper like throwing a wiffle ball to your kid. This can be an economical sport if you have small planes, cheap equipment, etc. but for the majority of us it's a fair amont of money. Bottom line you pay to play. ANTE UP!!!!

go to the non private field in whichata falls texas.
they do not evven allow you to ask if someone is a ama member.

and get real up tight when anyone even mentions the national org.

that is just the most blatant one i can think of that does not require ama to fly.

Nitro, I don't think you understand what we are talking about. We want to know what this policy covers. Can you answer spacific questions about the insurance? If so I have some questions for you. Please no guessing, I only want to know facts. Oh hell, if you don't know, go ahead and guess!

I'll give you an example..... A member of our club (Tommy Klutz) comes out to the field and flys his plane, he didn't pay his AMA dues and nobody notices. During Mr Klutzes flight he runs into somebody and hurts them. Sometime later our club and landowner are named in a lawsuit. Will the AMA defend us and pay up to the policy limit any judgment against us?

John

Who's the 'they'?

And who gave 'them' the right to tell you what to ask?

I have to say if somebody told me what to say I would purposely say the very thing they asked me not to.

Especially as you say it's a 'non-private' field.

sheesh!

-David C.

it is a city owned field, so the they is the city of whichata falls.

and it has something to do with a public access lawsuit that occured some years ago.

John

A lot of this is actually covered in the club recharter kit that your club received to renew. You can take a look at the information on the AMA web page. http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...003clubkit.pdf

You have to wade through some irrelevant stuff, but most of what you ask is there.

JR

All the bantering about wether or not people want to know what the policy says aside, the question remains, Why should I join?

seems like a fairly simple question, why is the answer so inflammatory?

Almost every form of recreation that people enjoy requires that we "pay to play" and the AMA is the our R/C worlds standard and has been for some time. Support the hobby and have fun.

Alec

The discussion is contentious because for years clubs have told new members nothing more than that an AMA membership is required for membership in the club for insurance purposes. People come in here with preconcieved ideas of what the AMA is and is not. There are not a lot of thinking people that, having been told that the AMA is only insurance, are not going to question why. IF the AMA were only an insurance company, they would have a point. Getting the word out that there is more to the AMA than insurance is a big part of what this forum is used for. In this case, the thread has turned to questions of what, exactly is, and is not, covered.

Modelers are not, by their basic nature, real inclined to do anything when the answer to the question of why is "just because". I believe that the only stupid question is one that is not asked.

If you read the older threads in this forum, you will find the same questions asked, again and again.

JR

JR,
I understand that the AMA is not an Insurance company but I got tired of typing "the AMA's Insurance Company" so I just abrieveated for the sake of asking a question.

JRJohn,
Your reply about the State Farm example is very interesting and does make one wonder about the need for the AMA' coverage. I'll review my policy, but keep the secondary coverage as well.

lkaras1,
The answer to the question posed by the thread starter is: To support the hobby. Untill another association starts to represent me as a lobbying group and on top of that sends me a decent magazine, provides extended coverage on my existing insurance and promotes the overall activity I'll support the AMA.

I belong to The San Fernando Valley Flyers but I've never been to a meeting. They represent my interests to the city that owns the field where I fly. The more members they have the more pull I feel they will have with the city. Same thing goes for the AMA.

I personnaly like the comparison, it was very good.

R/C aircraft have killed people, cars have killed people, hammers have killed people, knives have killed people.

Guns are for self protection, and providing food for many. Remember, a gun doesn't just go wandering on it's own.

I am not going to get dragged into this well-worn discussion, but will say that your first sentence also refers to underwear, ceilings and pepper pots (which, I believe, have also caused fatal accidents), and your second sentence just supports my statement that the NRA and the AMA are nothing like each other.

-David C.

I find this interesting.
We join the AMA for insurance and the policy is not published, it is secondary and seems to be rarely used, but then the rates have went up.

I read RED's epistle and saw the large list of things the AMA supports.
However, not much of that has entered into my association with the hobby.
No site assistance
No help in getting and keeping fields
No scholarships
Don't know of any youth education programs in the area
Don't want a leadership role ... so making it "possible" is not meaningful
Hall of Fame Recognition ... that won't happen
So you see, a lot of things can be put on the list just like making out a resume, but will the masses benefit.

Still, when you think of $10 million dollars+ for secondary insurance that is unspecified and "advantages" most of the members will not benefit from, you can see it raises the question " Why Should I Join".

And I just don't get it when "the members" are criticized for "not getting involved". What exactly is wrong with that? Getting involved is not for everyone. Why can't those that just want to be a modeler just do that without criticism? But we can still question those that do get involved and seem to make a mess of it. The modeler pays for it.

If an organization/business wants respect, it must give respect. Even big business has the habit of saying "People Are Our Greatest Asset", but then don't go on to show that with their attitude and respect.

No $58 bucks is not a lot of money for each of us, we just want it spent responsibly. The members deserve that.

So far it doesn't seem that the question has been answered adequately " Why Should I Join"

MustangFan

It's probably me, but, I am not sure what you meant in your post.

Is your list things you do not want? things you do want? or things you have no interest in?

All of the items listed in your post are referenced in Red's response.

JR

[quote]$58 bucks is not a lot of money for each of us, we just want it spent responsibly. The members deserve that.

So far it doesn't seem that the question has been answered adequately " Why Should I Join"


Well said Mustang!, I think you pretty much summed it up.

I will just add one thing, As long as the AMA continues on it's present coarse, of keeping us in the dark on certain Issues, clubs and people like myself will start looking for alternatives. I looked, I found, and it was very desirable

John

Ok, how about, simply:-

1/ To pay for the magazine.
2/ To pay insurance premiums.
3/ To finance the representations made by the AMA to bodies like the FCC so we can actually fly. We'd all look a but silly with our planes worth hundreds or thousands, with no frequency band to use.
4/ To show you are a member of a great hobby. This may sound perverse, but I still remember the day, in my early teens, when I got my SMAE number (the UK equivalent to AMA at the time) so I could proudly display it on my model.

As for using the money efficiently, I agree in principle but, frankly, I have better things to worry about than how the cost of my coffee and donuts once every three weeks is spent. I choose to have enough faith in the integrity of the people who run it.

The next time you consider buying a new plane, or a flight pack, or pay a fortune for a pack of nuts and bolts, shop around and I bet you would be able to save more than the $1 per week for the AMA.

-David C.

David, You are missing the whole point of this discussion. it's not about the one dollar per week, it's not about the 58 bucks. it's about the big picture. I club of 100 memebers along with it members pays nearly $6,000 dollars per year to the AMA. I will bet there are a Lot of things a club could do with that money. Like save the money and buy their own land in a few years, pay for grass cutting, buy an insurance policy to protect the club that they can actually see and read!

Here's the situation in our club. Recently our land owner told us he wanted to sell the land our field is on. it's 40 acres. We only use about 5 acres. he wants to sell the entire 40 acres, not just 5. He wants $2000 per acre ($80,000) Our cub of 50 members charges 35 dollars per year to join the club. We pay for grass cutting of our 75,000 square foot field, we pay for a porta potty, fertilizer, weed killer, leasing the land ect. along with the 35 dollar club dues we have a flyinn where we make on the average 700 dollars per year. Guess how much moeny we have left at the end of the year. Not enough to buy a chicken fried steak!

Now here we sit with the threat of loosing our field as soon as some rich guy comes up with 80 grand. We can't efford to buy it! To your knowledge is there anything that the AMA will do to help us? This has to be a situation where the AMA will want to help right?

Sometimes it's best to help yourself instead of depending on others only to be dissapointed.

Lets just say that 10 years ago we were thinking ahead and did what I proposed earlier in this discussion. Lets say we put an average of 40 dollars per person into the club instead of the AMA in addition to the 35 they already pay in dues. In the last 10 years we would have saved nearly $20,000 and could easily put a downpayment on the land as well as efford to make future payments. We have never had a liability claim to my knowledge, and even if we had, it would most likely have been payed by the persons personal Liability.

You see David, the one dollar per week is A lot of money! If you only look at the present, you loose sight of the future. The future is everything, I want our future to be bright. Nobdy will care for you better than yourself. Nobody


John

I respectfully say I'm not. If you say that, then either I'm at fault for not explaining my thoughts, or you are, for not understanding them.

No, $1 is simply not a lot of money. It's true that in one million years time it amounts to a lot, or if every person on earth suddenly takes up RC but, at the moment, and for the foreseeable future, one of the players in MY ability to go and fly is the AMA, and I consider that enough for me to give what amounts to a tiny percentage of my outlay on flying to them.

Of course, that still doesn't explain to somebody who chooses to be more of a passenger than I am why they should pay the AMA anything at all. Tell you what, lets all not pay anything, and see if that benefits our hobby at all.

Now, I have contributed my dollar's worth to this thread for this week. I'm off to indulge in what I believe is the whole point of the $58.

I'm gonna fly!

-David C.

IKARAS1
Arn't you glad you asked this question ?
it sure got various points of views,(which is a good thing).

No matter what, the bottom line is that most likely, you will have
to have AMA if you intend to join a club and fly/participate at your
local field. You may have little/no choice. That's the way it is !

Send in the 58 bucks and be done with it and let the AMA be
whatever it is you want it to be. Good,bad or something in between.



My best regards
Roby

jrjohn
Well said yourself, you put it in perspective.
I think we have relied on the AMA to save us and they are now falling short. Hence all the election jargon of "things must change".

But with all organizations that see $10 million in front of them, the politics gets too thick for changes to happen quickly, if at all. See HossFly's comments at the beginning of this forum. He tried in the late 70's to effect change, thats 24+ years ago.

We can hide our heads in the sand and speculate and hope ( I do this a lot), all the while the machine keeps grinding on.

I hate to say it, but the only way it seems to effect change in American business is to hit them in the pocketbook. Maybe it's time to hit them in the pocketbook to get their attention.

J_R

It's just you !

Seriously, The list WAS from Red's response. I was just calling attention to some items from his list that most of us will not benefit from. So having a long list of perceived advantages from the AMA that most members will not benefit from ,does no good.

We had a person come to our field the other day and inquire about how to get started in the hobby. We explained that you needed a good radio, engine, plane etc to start with. You also would benefit from an instructor to show you how to set the plane up, trim it ..... You also need to join the club (so that we can pay the gas for the lawnmower and have fun flies, and help to keep our club) and you need to join the AMA. He said "Why do I need to join the ama?". Well, so you can compete in over 2,500 sanctioned events annually...nope. So you can assist in getting and keeping flying sites (I thought that's what joining the club helped with)..nope. Well, because of the national safety advisory program and safety codes standard....nope. Because of the annual youth scholarship program....nope. Becase your just learning to fly, accidents happen sometimes and to make sure you and the club are covered in case of a mishap + if you ever want to fly at any other club they wont let you unless you have ama insurance because of liability issues. You need to join! OK..... Hopefully later it will be because of the other reasons but for now....... Jon

Did this fictional person pay for the radio, plane, instruction, club membership fee, or did he expect somebody else to pay to them for him?

If so, why not for the AMA fee too? He benefits from them from the very fact that the AMA helped (not entirely, but at the very least, contributed) to get the FCC to allot a frequency band to use.

There is also a knock-on effect that hasn't yet been mentioned: -

Whether or not the AMA deserve to be paid this money, the fact is there is a perceived benefit from joining them, which must act as an incentive for newbies to start in the hobby. It gives a feeling of security and organization which is a very attractive thing for a complete novice. They feel they are in good hands (even if they aren't!) That's the reason the AMA goes on so much about it being old and well established. It has a direct effect on membership, and therefore numbers in the hobby.

This pushes up the volume of the hardware we all buy, which has the effect of reducing prices. It doesn't have to be a large amount, as we have mentioned before in this thread.

-David C.

This person was not 'fictional'!! Yes, he paid for everything and his question was why did he have to join the ama to fly at our field, especially after spending all of the other money initially. The answer was because in case of an accident he needed the insurance coverage (not because of what the ama does but because of the insurance). Yes the ama helps with the other things (The ama is NOT the only org/people helping to further the hobby) so do many individuals thru their donations to the ama, thru helping new people learn to fly, thru....... This person wanted to know why they needed to join the ama before the club would let them fly.....it wasn't so he could compete in events right from the start, ect!! He needed the insurance... Jon