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Contest Director and problem flyer

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Contest Director and problem flyer

Old 01-05-2014, 02:36 PM
  #151  
Propworn
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Its quite simple as I see it. The contest/event director is approved by the club/executive. The club/executive has to support the contest/event director. Failing that the contest/event director should resign on the spot to the club/executive then so he cannot be held responsible pack up and leave the field for that event. At no time should the contest/event director feel the need to engage in a confrontation with any participant. If the situation cannot be reasoned out the decision must fall in favour of the event/contest director with the full backing of the executive. If this is not the case the contest/event director becomes nothing more than someone expected to shoulder the responsibility of fault were something to happen. If your executive is non supportive its a clear sign to avoid future commitments to act as contest/event director.

Dennis
Old 01-05-2014, 02:58 PM
  #152  
littlecrankshaf
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Its quite simple as I see it. The contest/event director is approved by the club/executive. The club/executive has to support the contest/event director. Failing that the contest/event director should resign on the spot to the club/executive then so he cannot be held responsible pack up and leave the field for that event. At no time should the contest/event director feel the need to engage in a confrontation with any participant. If the situation cannot be reasoned out the decision must fall in favour of the event/contest director with the full backing of the executive. If this is not the case the contest/event director becomes nothing more than someone expected to shoulder the responsibility of fault were something to happen. If your executive is non supportive its a clear sign to avoid future commitments to act as contest/event director.

Dennis
It seems you pretty much nailed it.
Old 01-05-2014, 03:10 PM
  #153  
Hossfly
 
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf View Post
With that I think we've come full circle as it pertains to this thread's topic.

The CD or whatever the event director title has the obligation to conduct an AMA event within the AMA rules and within his judgement for what is safe for the environment of that particular event. He can also entertain any reasonable suggestion from anyone to make things safer. As a participant you have a responsibility to determine whether you will support the event and stay or leave. Of course we could just not have any events to insure maximum safety...just assume the fetal position in the corner of our shop, unplug all electrical devices and shiver in the cold...


Darn, LCS, who is teaching who? I do like that last sentence phrase ".... just assume ....... shiver in the cold... No matter how much we worry and worry, none of us are going to get out of this world alive.
Now for those that are really getting new Gray Hair, all shooting will be done across the N-S runway, to west.. That makes some 100 ft. between shooter and airplane passing by which will be piloted by another person. Shooters are protected by 4 X 8 plywood on side and 4X4 in front for "ducking behind should need arise. There is some 2500 ft. between the far RW edge line and the next country lane. 100 by 800 ft of runway. Can check facility at www.jetero.com. Pilot stations are protected and plywood is extra. Club owns 1500 ft N-S and 1500 ft E-W. The lot is 1500 by 3000. The other 1500 X 1500 is not occupied, but well maintained. Lots of room.
Come and join in.
Old 01-05-2014, 03:18 PM
  #154  
PatternPilot
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A few other points the safety officer as well as other officers should have been involved in stopping the unsafe flying.. yep CD enforces the AMA rules and the officers should back the CD as well as enforce the club rules. Look into your club bylaws for member issues this might help or you can always call safety at AMA and address it with them.

We have a person in a club also who thinks he is above god and does what ever he wants, but he has pissed off so many people they have left to go to another club.

Scott
CD & Leader Member
Old 01-05-2014, 05:42 PM
  #155  
TexasAirBoss
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not mine

Last edited by TexasAirBoss; 01-10-2014 at 02:01 PM.
Old 01-05-2014, 06:47 PM
  #156  
mongo
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NZ,
your responsibility ends with making your concerns known to the folks involved with whatever it is making you uncomfortable. if they decide against your suggestions/solutions, then you are not responsible for what they have done after your "warning".
Old 01-05-2014, 07:16 PM
  #157  
Propworn
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Originally Posted by NeroZero View Post
I think I have my answer. It seems I do not have any responsibility/authority to intervene when I see unsafe activity at the club. (I had always be told the opposite).
Responsibility and authority are two very different points. Yes I feel its everyone's responsibility to report unsafe or any other practice that goes against the rules. Authority to intervene is a slippery slope not many clubs will give anyone the authority to become physically involved. Usually if you do you do this on your own and you will own the consequences. A few times I have seen someone at a field out of control and the executive has called the police to have them removed. If you were to accost them you could be charged with assault even if he were the one contravening the rules. One other point is that unless there is wording in the club rules/constitution attempting to remove or block membership may be cause for legal action against the club.

Dennis

Last edited by Propworn; 01-06-2014 at 07:11 AM.
Old 01-05-2014, 10:48 PM
  #158  
TexasAirBoss
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
If you were to accost them it would be you charged with assault...

Dennis
not mine

Last edited by TexasAirBoss; 01-10-2014 at 02:01 PM.
Old 01-06-2014, 05:53 AM
  #159  
speedracerntrixie
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Originally Posted by NeroZero View Post
Wow ! I've never had anyone tell me to accost someone. I thought you Canucks were suppose to be easy going. I'm sure there are non-violent ways of communicating that something is unsafe and will not be tolerated. But thanks for the advise.
What have you never seen a hockey game??? But seriously this topic affects every club at one time or another. I feel that the best solution is simply wait until the pilot lands and is safely in the pits and then approach him in a positive manner, state your concern and then politely walk away. At that point he has heard what you have to say. What he does with that information is beyond your control. If the violation continues then you refer the matter to the club board. There is nothing worse then having a bunch of empowered cowboys running around. We had that scenario at my club at one time. At the north end of our runway we can only fly out about 600'. One day I was flying a 40% Extra and had to land from the north. I was being careful not to go over the no fly zone and just as I turned to final I have a club member 10 feet behind me yelling at the top of his lungs that I was over the no fly zone. Rather difficult to land under that sort of condition. After I landed and put away my airplane I went over to this person and explained to him in a clam manner that the proper way to handle that would have been to wait until I was safely on the ground. My comments were immediately rejected with a nasty " You IMAC guys are going to get us closed down ". I went home and posted the indecent on the clubs online forum. Within 20 minuets I received a call for the club president. He reminded me of the no fly zone, I reminded him that for a decade I had been competing IMAC and I know where my airplane is being flown and reminded him that his editorial in the last news letter about it being everyone's responsibility to enforce club rules had resulted in a bunch of guys feeling empowered and going on a chest beating crusade. I informed him that this club member took a possible airspace violation and turned it into a safety hazard. He again reminded me of the no fly zone and asked if I would agree to him deleting my post. Obviously I mostly fly elsewhere.
Old 01-06-2014, 05:57 AM
  #160  
thebest_102
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Propworn was not telling you to accost them but was warning that you could have legal trouble if you did accost them. As for what a CD/ED can do. A CD/ED is the safety rep for the AMA and is how the sanction is secured. If the CD/ED shuts down the event and leaves then the club would no longer have an AMA sanction. If this were what I were going to do I would immediately be on the phone with the AMA and would then make sure I filled the post event report out correctly and named the offender. A CD/ED is not responsible to the club for anything. They are there to just help sanction the event. If a club does not want to listen or follow rules by the same token then the CD/ED can leave and that club can get a sanction from somewhere else. At anytime I would not try to get violent or even yell. I would just warn a few times and after that I would pack up and leave. Letting theclub leadership know that they are now hosting an unsanctioned event. They can host any unsanctioned event they want and then it is on them to negotiate with the AMA (who I am sure would be very thrilled to work with them at this point) to fix any insurance issue.
Old 01-06-2014, 07:12 AM
  #161  
Propworn
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Originally Posted by NeroZero View Post
Wow ! I've never had anyone tell me to accost someone. I thought you Canucks were suppose to be easy going. I'm sure there are non-violent ways of communicating that something is unsafe and will not be tolerated. But thanks for the advise.
[h=2]ac·cost[/h] transitive verb \ə-ˈkȯst, -ˈkäst\
: to approach and speak to (someone) often in an angry, aggressive, or unwanted way

To accost is to approach someone aggressively or confront them in an inappropriate way.
Old 01-06-2014, 08:34 AM
  #162  
TexasAirBoss
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not my post

Last edited by TexasAirBoss; 01-10-2014 at 02:01 PM.
Old 01-06-2014, 09:10 AM
  #163  
Propworn
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Originally Posted by NeroZero View Post
Happens all the time in America. Its just part of the culture. In fact, our club has a reputation because one particular person does it so much. I've seen him "accost" 4 or 5 people over the years.

I'm sure I can bring attention to the unsafe activity without the need to "accost" anyone. But I do stand my ground.
At our club that form of aggressiveness is reason to revoke membership. Everyone is charged with respecting everyone else. Confrontations verbal or physical are not permitted. Members who have issues with someone or their behavior call the president and he deals with it. In the history of the club we have had to revoke one membership and refuse to accept another. Oh yes we have guys who just do not get along but they behave at club functions or else.

Dennis

Last edited by Propworn; 01-06-2014 at 12:05 PM.
Old 01-06-2014, 10:54 AM
  #164  
Bob Pastorello
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I've followed this thread out of curiosity, wondering if anyone would (or has) brought up potential "site owner" responsibilities/responses to "offenders" who are called out for their misdeeds by the bonafide club officers, or event/contest director as the case may be?
I wonder about the "offender's" appeal to the site owner to attempt to overrule or discard the club persons' actions?
Any thoughts, there? (Particularly since our "site owner" is the City Parks department)
Old 01-06-2014, 11:42 AM
  #165  
littlecrankshaf
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Originally Posted by Bob Pastorello View Post
I've followed this thread out of curiosity, wondering if anyone would (or has) brought up potential "site owner" responsibilities/responses to "offenders" who are called out for their misdeeds by the bonafide club officers, or event/contest director as the case may be?
I wonder about the "offender's" appeal to the site owner to attempt to overrule or discard the club persons' actions?
Any thoughts, there? (Particularly since our "site owner" is the City Parks department)
My thoughts; Try to confine any issues in an effort to keep property owners from worrying... as that is the last thing you would ever want.
Old 01-06-2014, 11:45 AM
  #166  
Bob Pastorello
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf View Post
My thoughts; Try to confine any issues in an effort to keep property owners from worrying... as that is the last thing you would ever want.
Yep...agree.
But...what if the "offender" takes up the issue with the Site Owners?
Old 01-06-2014, 11:46 AM
  #167  
DISCUS54
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Certainly within their right to do; however, their case would have to be very compelling I would think. At that point the owner might consider revoking the club lease if they have reason to believe the club is being run irresponsibly...good reason to vote in mentally solid club officers. Years ago I witnessed a club officer physically intervene with a member while the member was flying and it lead to a dangerous situation. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the reasonable human/CD/safety officer is going to direct an offender to land as opposed to physical intervention. I would like to stress that I have seen this once in the past 20 years, the officer was not re-elected...the offender cleaned up his act.
Old 01-06-2014, 12:03 PM
  #168  
TexasAirBoss
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not my post

Last edited by TexasAirBoss; 01-10-2014 at 02:02 PM.
Old 01-06-2014, 12:09 PM
  #169  
Propworn
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Originally Posted by NeroZero View Post
That's a great policy Dennis. Sounds good to me. Our problem now is that the precedent has been established that such behavior was allowed in the past without discipline. Don't get me wrong, 99% of our guys are real sweethearts. There are just a handful of thick skulled Neanderthals that are on the sociopath side of the scale. Occasionally they run into each other. The entertainment value is pretty high. And frankly some of them don't fly that much. Its rare to see them at the field, ever. I think they have made so many enemies that they are simply uncomfortable at the club. It escapes me why they still belong. In a way, they have taken themselves out of the club. Karma , I guess.
Its like breaking the cycle of abuse. You would have to bring it up at the next club meeting as a proposal with a seconder then if it passed with a majority it might be something the club could act on. Of course this would mean standing up to these guys and sticking to your guns.

Dennis
Old 01-06-2014, 12:35 PM
  #170  
TexasAirBoss
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not my post

Last edited by TexasAirBoss; 01-10-2014 at 02:02 PM.
Old 01-06-2014, 12:36 PM
  #171  
littlecrankshaf
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Originally Posted by Bob Pastorello View Post
Yep...agree.
But...what if the "offender" takes up the issue with the Site Owners?
The offender's action in regards to taking up operational issues with property owners is hard to prevent. The only thing is to try and prevent provocation in the first place if you think that could be an issue...especially if it is one that may be lost. It will bode very bad for the offender if he initiates a baseless claim...that will give a resonable club the upper hand in the event of arbitration...best to keep aces in the hole!
Old 01-06-2014, 03:10 PM
  #172  
aero12
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It's a shame that in our hobby, there are a lot of people who don't use common sense.... All we can do is try and teach the right way, and hopefully one day they will understand their actions are un-safe, and maybe they will start using a little common sense. It's people like these that buy quad copters and go fly them where they are not supposed to, or do non-common sense actions with them.
Old 01-06-2014, 04:48 PM
  #173  
DRC1
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Originally Posted by pfalzaflyer View Post
I've been the Contest Director for the past several years, for my club's annual Class C Fun Fly.

One of the founding members of my club was flying at our annual Fun Fly. He was flying straight at the pits and spectators at low altitude taking photos with a camera mounted to his plane. An estimate of how far away and how high would be 50 to 75 feet before pulling up into an Immelmann type of maneuver to line up to make another pass and 15-20 feet high, straight in at the crowd. I have considered this flyer to have been reckless in the past and this one incidence angered me no end!

As the CD, it's my job to determine what is safe and what is not and I take corrective action if needed. I did take corrective action and this set this guy off! He is directing his anger at me, stating I am coming up with Bull-Bleep rules! He is a member of the AMA, so he has access to all the rules and guidelines.

I am somewhat baffled over what to do! I am quitting being the CD for the club with this guy participating. The fact that I feel his anger has very little basis, makes me wonder about even continuing to be a member of this club!

I want the members of my club to use good safety practices; but, his being one of the founding members and also one of the clubs instructors. I am thinking his philosophys are being transferred to his students.

I really don't know what to do and am asking people with more experience in these matters, how to handle this!
I have read the first several posts and although some hint at it, here is the cold hard truth...

When a club files and receives an AMA sanction for an event, the event is not under the control of the club. It is under the control of the AMA with the CD having direct control and responsible for the safety of any and all spectators and pilots. This fact is very difficult for some clubs to understand.

With this being said, somebody flying in a careless or reckless manner is very subjective and the CD has the discretionary right and AMA authority to make that decision. If there is a conflict with the club rules, then the CD enforcing AMA rules will prevail during a sanctioned event.

The recourse of the offending pilot is to make a complaint to the AMA which may or may not be investigate.

As stated by somebody else, the club doesn't have to allow the CD to be the Contest Director for future events.

Just My .02, it is only my opinion and I could be wrong...

Last edited by DRC1; 01-06-2014 at 04:55 PM.
Old 01-06-2014, 08:16 PM
  #174  
thebest_102
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LD 24 is right about all with one exception. It is not the club that files with the AMA for a Sanction it is the CD. The club and their field are just a place, the CD is the AMA's bellybutton to push. It is not the club's responsibility to file a follow-on report to the AMA. That is on the CD. On the follow-on report it does however specifically ask if anyone was ejected from the event and to describe it. The club is just a host. The event can move to another host. Or if the club wishes to keep the event they can get another CD to file for the Sanction. I will say this if a club asked me to CD and event for them I would ask the previous CD what happened. I may still CD it but I would be very mindful of his concerns. A CD is a competition rule guide and a safety officer. The Club are the hosts.

Last edited by thebest_102; 01-06-2014 at 08:22 PM.
Old 01-07-2014, 06:00 AM
  #175  
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We are an informal group that fly together and as long as you are flying a model airplane every one is welcome to fly. Not many rules except that one is courteous to others and follow basic safety. Once a new guy landed at the field with his mega hi technology multirotor. This was not a hobby grade machine but a commercial grade with big 18-20 inch multi props. He was welcome to fly and he was stationed at one end of the flight line, while I was towards the other end .
While I was up in the air, the multi copter whirred overhead from my rear, and crossed the flight line. I ignored it once, then it happened again when he came flying along the flight line and pretty close to people. Over the sound of engines and motors I had to hail a caution to the flyer to desist as it was distracting while I was in the air. Then it happens third time and and I yelled and cussed at him. After I landed I went to talk to him, and he took issues with this. I was lucky that almost every one else realized what was happening and tried to make the fellow understand, there was a heated argument. However he never showed up again.
I guess once in a while there will be people who will need to be cautioned and made to follow basic safety rules

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