Are we as hobbyist UAS users in the clear for now? can we jump for joy? or to soon?
09-18-2016, 08:19 AM
#626
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I disagree. We can stop this and it won't just be AMA members. A case has already been won by someone who shot a drone out of the sky over his property. Property rights cases may make hay of this. The FAA has gotten around this largely by settling cases out of court. They cannot do that if there is a large number of cases.
While your cited case of the drone being downed by an irate landowner might be true, the courts are currently trying to determine just how much of the airspace above his property a landowner "owns". You can bet it doesn't go into infinity. In fact, I'd venture that it'll get capped pretty low since the FAA has already proposed 200ft for the floor for future inner city drone ops.
Harvey
Last edited by H5487; 09-18-2016 at 08:41 AM.
09-18-2016, 09:46 AM
#628
Eminent domain which refers to the power of a state or the federal government to take private property for public use.
09-18-2016, 10:01 AM
#629
"...acknowledging to fly by the safety code..."
How is signing an agreement with a private non-governmental organization carry any weight, particularly when the governmental organization authorized to enforce the nation's airspace laws/regulations say that all you have to do is "Follow a community-based set of safety guidelines." (Option #1 item b, https://www.faa.gov/uas/faqs/#ffr)
"...TFR notifications etc ..."
AMA only sends TFRs to those who's AMA address is in the same area as the TFR. If you're visiting from out of area, you never receive them. If you're traveling to another area, you'll never receive them. Secondly, the AMA only sends TFRs that specifically mention the words "model aircraft." I've got an email from the FAA UAS Integration office that says TFRs that apply to "all aircraft" apply to "model aircraft" as well (model aircraft are subset of "aircraft") - yet AMA doesn't send those. So while AMA sends a subset of TFRs, unless they happen to include the words model aircraft and are for the same geographic area as your address on file, you'll never see them.
So all that leaves is this "...ongoing education." And what exactly is the AMA sending (related to law & regulation) that isn't available on FAA or other governmental websites anyway?
09-18-2016, 10:36 AM
#630
Banned
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Safety Program?
"...acknowledging to fly by the safety code..."
How is signing an agreement with a private non-governmental organization carry any weight, particularly when the governmental organization authorized to enforce the nation's airspace laws/regulations say that all you have to do is "Follow a community-based set of safety guidelines." (Option #1 item b, https://www.faa.gov/uas/faqs/#ffr)
"...TFR notifications etc ..."
AMA only sends TFRs to those who's AMA address is in the same area as the TFR. If you're visiting from out of area, you never receive them. If you're traveling to another area, you'll never receive them. Secondly, the AMA only sends TFRs that specifically mention the words "model aircraft." I've got an email from the FAA UAS Integration office that says TFRs that apply to "all aircraft" apply to "model aircraft" as well (model aircraft are subset of "aircraft") - yet AMA doesn't send those. So while AMA sends a subset of TFRs, unless they happen to include the words model aircraft and are for the same geographic area as your address on file, you'll never see them.
So all that leaves is this "...ongoing education." And what exactly is the AMA sending (related to law & regulation) that isn't available on FAA or other governmental websites anyway?
"...acknowledging to fly by the safety code..."
How is signing an agreement with a private non-governmental organization carry any weight, particularly when the governmental organization authorized to enforce the nation's airspace laws/regulations say that all you have to do is "Follow a community-based set of safety guidelines." (Option #1 item b, https://www.faa.gov/uas/faqs/#ffr)
"...TFR notifications etc ..."
AMA only sends TFRs to those who's AMA address is in the same area as the TFR. If you're visiting from out of area, you never receive them. If you're traveling to another area, you'll never receive them. Secondly, the AMA only sends TFRs that specifically mention the words "model aircraft." I've got an email from the FAA UAS Integration office that says TFRs that apply to "all aircraft" apply to "model aircraft" as well (model aircraft are subset of "aircraft") - yet AMA doesn't send those. So while AMA sends a subset of TFRs, unless they happen to include the words model aircraft and are for the same geographic area as your address on file, you'll never see them.
So all that leaves is this "...ongoing education." And what exactly is the AMA sending (related to law & regulation) that isn't available on FAA or other governmental websites anyway?
09-18-2016, 11:00 AM
#631
The TFR/NOTAM thing is incomplete (mediocre implementation), as the AMA's notification program is not comprehensive for the reason cited above. Telling the FAA that you didn't know about a TFR because AMA didn't tell you isn't a defense.
And the only "education" that FAA would care about are things that are already covered on any number of governmental websites.
Last edited by franklin_m; 09-18-2016 at 11:12 AM.
09-18-2016, 11:07 AM
#632
Banned
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Signing AMA agreement to follow the code is an AMA insurance requirement; FAA doesn't recognize it with respect to following / not following the FARs (established by FAA saying CBO membership not required).
The TFR/NOTAM thing is incomplete, as the AMA's notification program is not comprehensive for the reason cited above. Telling the FAA that you didn't know about a TFR because AMA didn't tell you isn't a defense.
And the only "education" that FAA would care about are things that are already covered on any number of governmental websites.
The TFR/NOTAM thing is incomplete, as the AMA's notification program is not comprehensive for the reason cited above. Telling the FAA that you didn't know about a TFR because AMA didn't tell you isn't a defense.
And the only "education" that FAA would care about are things that are already covered on any number of governmental websites.
Are you saying there is no safety program, or just continuing the criticize the one they have?
09-18-2016, 11:22 AM
#633
09-18-2016, 11:41 AM
#634
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The answer is Probably Yes! It seems that way too many folks will rush to embrace anything that is new, trendy, and exciting before giving much thought to any negative impacts the new thing might have (such as the noise of drones flying only 200ft above their houses). By the time they discover the negative aspects of something, it's too late to put the genie back into the bottle and we're all stuck with it.
Also, we probably ARE powerless to stop it. Our Constitution and Bill Of Rights have been reinterpreted to the point that large corporations often have more rights than people now. Therefore, Google, Amazon, Pizza Hut etc will likely be given the go ahead for drone deliveries regardless of how many folks object to having them flying just 200ft above their houses day and night.
Harvey
Also, we probably ARE powerless to stop it. Our Constitution and Bill Of Rights have been reinterpreted to the point that large corporations often have more rights than people now. Therefore, Google, Amazon, Pizza Hut etc will likely be given the go ahead for drone deliveries regardless of how many folks object to having them flying just 200ft above their houses day and night.
Harvey
Mike
Last edited by rcmiket; 09-18-2016 at 11:44 AM.
09-18-2016, 11:43 AM
#635
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09-18-2016, 11:50 AM
#636
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I guess I'd ask you to answer that question. You complained about your membership and was offered a refund, but refused. You've noted you don't need the insurance coverage since you already have homeowners coverage. You don't belong to a club.....so...what purpose does the AMA membership serve to you? I know why I'm a member.
09-18-2016, 12:21 PM
#638
I belong to a club that owns a flying field. That club requires AMA membership to belong. The sole reason for this is for the insurance coverage. Another club I belong to leases usage of the flying field from the first club I mentioned, and they too, require AMA membership to belong. The main reason is because it is in the lease agreement, that anyone flying at the field must be an AMA member (due to the insurance coverage offered to AMA clubs and the land owners they rent from).
In my numerous decades of membership in these clubs, I have never heard another reason for being chartered with the AMA beyond the insurance coverage. That has also been the case at EVERY other AMA chartered club that I have had experiences with. It is almost like common knowledge for the majority of members at the majority of AMA clubs that the MAIN reason for being chartered is because of the insurance.
Do not be confused! That is not necessarily my opinion, those are the hard facts. I personally believe the AMA brings other benefits to its members. As you know, I have been vocal about my displeasure with some of the recent actions (or lack thereof) of the AMA. I think the fact that we hear the comment, "the AMA is just a necessary evil to cover our insurance needs" should be a load and clear broadcast that their membership don't know who they are and that they should spend some of their efforts focusing on that fact.
MAYBE the AMA forum on RCU would be a much nicer place to visit!
Regards,
Astro
09-18-2016, 02:12 PM
#640
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I am trying to follow this, and do not understand what point you are trying to make?
I belong to a club that owns a flying field. That club requires AMA membership to belong. The sole reason for this is for the insurance coverage. Another club I belong to leases usage of the flying field from the first club I mentioned, and they too, require AMA membership to belong. The main reason is because it is in the lease agreement, that anyone flying at the field must be an AMA member (due to the insurance coverage offered to AMA clubs and the land owners they rent from).
In my numerous decades of membership in these clubs, I have never heard another reason for being chartered with the AMA beyond the insurance coverage. That has also been the case at EVERY other AMA chartered club that I have had experiences with. It is almost like common knowledge for the majority of members at the majority of AMA clubs that the MAIN reason for being chartered is because of the insurance.
Do not be confused! That is not necessarily my opinion, those are the hard facts. I personally believe the AMA brings other benefits to its members. As you know, I have been vocal about my displeasure with some of the recent actions (or lack thereof) of the AMA. I think the fact that we hear the comment, "the AMA is just a necessary evil to cover our insurance needs" should be a load and clear broadcast that their membership don't know who they are and that they should spend some of their efforts focusing on that fact.
MAYBE the AMA forum on RCU would be a much nicer place to visit!
Regards,
Astro
I belong to a club that owns a flying field. That club requires AMA membership to belong. The sole reason for this is for the insurance coverage. Another club I belong to leases usage of the flying field from the first club I mentioned, and they too, require AMA membership to belong. The main reason is because it is in the lease agreement, that anyone flying at the field must be an AMA member (due to the insurance coverage offered to AMA clubs and the land owners they rent from).
In my numerous decades of membership in these clubs, I have never heard another reason for being chartered with the AMA beyond the insurance coverage. That has also been the case at EVERY other AMA chartered club that I have had experiences with. It is almost like common knowledge for the majority of members at the majority of AMA clubs that the MAIN reason for being chartered is because of the insurance.
Do not be confused! That is not necessarily my opinion, those are the hard facts. I personally believe the AMA brings other benefits to its members. As you know, I have been vocal about my displeasure with some of the recent actions (or lack thereof) of the AMA. I think the fact that we hear the comment, "the AMA is just a necessary evil to cover our insurance needs" should be a load and clear broadcast that their membership don't know who they are and that they should spend some of their efforts focusing on that fact.
MAYBE the AMA forum on RCU would be a much nicer place to visit!
Regards,
Astro
This has happened only once and all of our present club members are AMA members for the insurance.
As far as the point he's trying to make there is none that I can see. Just posting to post.
Mike
Last edited by rcmiket; 09-18-2016 at 02:20 PM.
09-18-2016, 03:41 PM
#641
I guess I'd ask you to answer that question. You complained about your membership and was offered a refund, but refused. You've noted you don't need the insurance coverage since you already have homeowners coverage. You don't belong to a club.....so...what purpose does the AMA membership serve to you? I know why I'm a member.
There are three clubs less than two hours away. One is 20 minutes one way, the other two just over an hour. The one that's close has a rough grass field that's rough on anything less than a 60 size for fixed gear, larger with retracts. The other two fields are also grass, but an hour each way means you're committing the heart of the day just to fly. I enjoy the hobby, but not that much.
So I fly smaller stuff close to home. For those who live in areas with good access to good facilities, AMA makes a ton of sense if for no other reason than it's cost of entry. For those of us though who aren't graced with such facilities, the "need" for AMA is much lower.
09-18-2016, 04:18 PM
#642
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Harvey
09-18-2016, 04:55 PM
#644
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I suspect you know deep down the AMA is so much more than insurance, but if you really don't, you need to get up to speed. Educate yourself, look to your district AVP, VP, and fellow Leader Members to show you the way. Good luck.
09-18-2016, 05:01 PM
#645
Banned
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Once again I picked up on " what's his names" question when you quoted. If your homeowners insurance covers a person and it's in writing while your engaged in RC activity we will accept that as proof of insurance and you may fly at out club fields ( both located on private property) as a member or a guest.
This has happened only once and all of our present club members are AMA members for the insurance.
As far as the point he's trying to make there is none that I can see. Just posting to post.
Mike
This has happened only once and all of our present club members are AMA members for the insurance.
As far as the point he's trying to make there is none that I can see. Just posting to post.
Mike
IF Astro can read them, you can too, I know it. You post for the same reason I do, because you want to. It was a simple question I asked, I see it still can't be answered. You've made comments in the past about your field being privately owned and not really needing AMA, just wanted to see if that was still the case. You and I know the AMA is far more than just insurance, and there isn't a doubt in my mind you've afforded yourself (as has your club) other benefits the AMA and it's membership affords you. It's disingenuous to say otherwise. Nothing wrong with saying they are good for other stuff.....
09-18-2016, 05:11 PM
#646
Banned
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You're a member because you have good fields within what you consider a reasonable distance to drive to use those facilities. You've also said you enjoy the social aspect. That's fine.
There are three clubs less than two hours away. One is 20 minutes one way, the other two just over an hour. The one that's close has a rough grass field that's rough on anything less than a 60 size for fixed gear, larger with retracts. The other two fields are also grass, but an hour each way means you're committing the heart of the day just to fly. I enjoy the hobby, but not that much.
So I fly smaller stuff close to home. For those who live in areas with good access to good facilities, AMA makes a ton of sense if for no other reason than it's cost of entry. For those of us though who aren't graced with such facilities, the "need" for AMA is much lower.
There are three clubs less than two hours away. One is 20 minutes one way, the other two just over an hour. The one that's close has a rough grass field that's rough on anything less than a 60 size for fixed gear, larger with retracts. The other two fields are also grass, but an hour each way means you're committing the heart of the day just to fly. I enjoy the hobby, but not that much.
So I fly smaller stuff close to home. For those who live in areas with good access to good facilities, AMA makes a ton of sense if for no other reason than it's cost of entry. For those of us though who aren't graced with such facilities, the "need" for AMA is much lower.
FYI, did you notice that insurance costs and payments went down in 2015? Good news eh?
09-18-2016, 05:18 PM
#647
Banned
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Well, it's not exactly that simple or true, although I get the urge to reduce it down to that issue for simplicity sake. But look beyond the simple. Nobody has to have an AMA card to fly, or enjoy the hobby. Nobody has to have an AMA card to get a club together. It just takes time and effort, and a bit of sticktoitness. Something sorely lacking, mostly from the folks who have spent more than a decade whining about the AMA. In all that time they could have gone out and created their own organization, but didn't. Perhaps that's what you mean by "them wanting their stuff right now". Rather than actually do something to change the situation they so bitterly complain about, they just go along with it. Some folks have been known to label that as acting in a "Sheeple" type of manner.
09-18-2016, 05:45 PM
#648
He's free to answer as well.
I'm curious why you keep needling Mike and Franklin, but are not interested in anothers' experience. Personal agenda? Trying to just drive some kind of Porcia agenda home? Didn'y like MY answer because it didn't fit your agenda? Too many facts?
Look, Porcia, you can deny it all day long, but anyone that has been around this hobby for any length of time, knows that there is a pretty large percentage of members that belong because they feel they "have to".
I personally know that there are many more benefits to the AMA than the insurance. I think you agree, but despite all your efforts to try and prove other value, the facts remain; many people believe that they have to join the AMA in order to fly. If you don't believe that there are many that believe that, you are only fooling yourself. Sometimes the truth just stings a little, no?
Regards,
Astro
I'm curious why you keep needling Mike and Franklin, but are not interested in anothers' experience. Personal agenda? Trying to just drive some kind of Porcia agenda home? Didn'y like MY answer because it didn't fit your agenda? Too many facts?
Look, Porcia, you can deny it all day long, but anyone that has been around this hobby for any length of time, knows that there is a pretty large percentage of members that belong because they feel they "have to".
I personally know that there are many more benefits to the AMA than the insurance. I think you agree, but despite all your efforts to try and prove other value, the facts remain; many people believe that they have to join the AMA in order to fly. If you don't believe that there are many that believe that, you are only fooling yourself. Sometimes the truth just stings a little, no?
Regards,
Astro
09-18-2016, 06:38 PM
#649
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Porcia,
Why are you so confrontational and combative? For crying out loud, let it drop! Most of us visit RCU to learn or simply socialize with like-minded folks and we shouldn't have to wade through your venom when we do. If you don't like someone, PM them. Picking a fight with someone in an open forum is a clear sign that your whole intent is to trash them publically; not to do anything that's constructive or useful.
Harvey
Why are you so confrontational and combative? For crying out loud, let it drop! Most of us visit RCU to learn or simply socialize with like-minded folks and we shouldn't have to wade through your venom when we do. If you don't like someone, PM them. Picking a fight with someone in an open forum is a clear sign that your whole intent is to trash them publically; not to do anything that's constructive or useful.
Harvey
Last edited by H5487; 09-18-2016 at 06:43 PM.
09-18-2016, 07:00 PM
#650
Banned
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Porcia,
Why are you so confrontational and combative? For crying out loud, let it drop! Most of us visit RCU to learn or simply socialize with like-minded folks and we shouldn't have to wade through your venom when we do. If you don't like someone, PM them. Picking a fight with someone in an open forum is a clear sign that your whole intent is to trash them publically; not to do anything that's constructive or useful.
Harvey
Why are you so confrontational and combative? For crying out loud, let it drop! Most of us visit RCU to learn or simply socialize with like-minded folks and we shouldn't have to wade through your venom when we do. If you don't like someone, PM them. Picking a fight with someone in an open forum is a clear sign that your whole intent is to trash them publically; not to do anything that's constructive or useful.
Harvey
Are the threads a place where everyone is supposed to agree...be "like minded" If you look at my responses I keep it conversational and leave out the personal attacks that are usually lobbed my way, perhaps you missed them. I guess the others get a pass?
I see you edited your first comment saying something about not liking someone here. I don't dislike anyone here, I don't have a reason to feel that way about anyone, just to clarify. I've met some great folks both virtually and in person from the site.