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Serial Numbers on AMA Ballots ????

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Serial Numbers on AMA Ballots ????

Old 09-19-2016, 01:27 PM
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porcia83
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Thank You Andy . I guess now the follow on question would be ; If Rich does not win , will Chad and Tyler still be replacing him on the govt. relations side ? Or will he continue as the representative if he's not elected President ?
I'd have to guess he could continue on in his current role if he doesn't get the nod for President, but who knows.
Old 09-19-2016, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
I'd have to guess he could continue on in his current role if he doesn't get the nod for President, but who knows.
Especially if Rich is the one responsible for the 400 foot letter I really do hope he stays as govt. affairs representative if he does not win . I do believe he will win though , so we'll get to see if Chad & Travis can continue the good work that's already been done . So BTW you haven't yet told me , who do you think is gonna win , and what do you think the order of the rest of the votes will be ?
Old 09-19-2016, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
#1 Rich Hanson

#2 Frank Tiano

#3 Lawrence Tougas

#4 Eric Williams

.
Didn't realize RCU had rules against a friendly wager....be that as it may

Hanson
Williams
Tougas
Tiano
Old 09-19-2016, 02:43 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
Didn't realize RCU had rules against a friendly wager....be that as it may

Hanson
Williams
Tougas
Tiano
Thank you for posting that , and I hope you know my list isn't based on who I think would be "better" for the job as I think all four candidates would do just fine as AMA President , it's just my list of how I predict the results will turn out . Both you and I , as well as most of my local flying buddies are in agreement that we think Rich is gonna get the spot . To be honest with you the one big takeaway for me from this election is that I always had assumed that the president was a paid position and to learn that it's not was really eye opening for me . For folks to be THAT dedicated that they would take on that responsibility for no pay really does say a lot about the devotion each candidate has to the hobby , part of the reason that I think each one of em would make a fine president , and I am truly happy our organization has such generous people who would donate their time for free like that .
Old 09-19-2016, 03:00 PM
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PS , this posting for fun of who we think is gonna win and what we think the distribution of votes will be is not for Porcia and myself only , anybody and everybody are welcome to share their picks if they so desire , In fact the more the merrier , it's gonna be fun seeing how our predictions compare to the actual results .
Old 09-19-2016, 03:13 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Thank you for posting that , and I hope you know my list isn't based on who I think would be "better" for the job as I think all four candidates would do just fine as AMA President , it's just my list of how I predict the results will turn out . Both you and I , as well as most of my local flying buddies are in agreement that we think Rich is gonna get the spot . To be honest with you the one big takeaway for me from this election is that I always had assumed that the president was a paid position and to learn that it's not was really eye opening for me . For folks to be THAT dedicated that they would take on that responsibility for no pay really does say a lot about the devotion each candidate has to the hobby , part of the reason that I think each one of em would make a fine president , and I am truly happy our organization has such generous people who would donate their time for free like that .
Even more interesting is Hanson would be going from a well paid (fairly paid) position to one that doesn't pay. No fame, no glory, no real power...just a love for the hobby.
Old 09-20-2016, 05:07 AM
  #57  
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As a proud member of the AMA's unwashed masses, those to be seen and not heard, I cast my ballot today. That said, I'm well aware that the same folks who will be counting ballots could be effected by the outcome, so I fully expect my vote will end up in the trash before it's counted.

Last edited by franklin_m; 09-20-2016 at 05:31 AM.
Old 09-20-2016, 06:35 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
As a proud member of the AMA's unwashed masses, those to be seen and not heard, I cast my ballot today. That said, I'm well aware that the same folks who will be counting ballots could be effected by the outcome, so I fully expect my vote will end up in the trash before it's counted.
Hi Franklin ,

I also believe the ballots should be counted by an independent outside firm , and my reasoning is this ;

I was told here some months ago by at least two different posters that the only thing keeping the AMA from receiving a literal deluge of fraudulent model aircraft theft insurance claims is the fact that a police report and signs of forced entry are required to be submitted with the insurance claim . Do you remember me having that conversation with a couple or few of our fellow RCU posters ? Well , if we the members are suspect of possibly giving in to the temptation of "easy money" by filing a false claim , what's to say a member directly affected by and involved in a vote won't also possibly give in to the all too Human temptation to skew the results in his own favor ? This is NOT any kinds of accusation , just to head THAT off before I get it thrown back at me , this is more a case of if we the members are suspect of possibly giving in to temptation then aren't ALL members subject to possibly giving in to their Human urges to "take advantage of the system" ? At what point does a member go from being someone who may follow their urges and needing built in "checks & balances" to insure the honesty of , to someone of such rock solid honesty that they are to be taken as being 100% beyond reproach and as honest as ol "Honest Abe" ?

The Scriptures are chock full of stories of Human temptation and NO MAN is above being tempted . Most do not follow those temptations . Some do . If checks & balances are required of us "unwashed masses" , shouldn't the same apply across the board , from us lowly members right on up to the EC ?

The outside counting of Ballots is just the kind of fair check & balance an election like this deserves if it's integrity is to not be called into question .

Last edited by init4fun; 09-20-2016 at 06:38 AM. Reason: Yes , once again , TYPOS , for real ....
Old 09-20-2016, 06:42 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Hi Franklin ,

I also believe the ballots should be counted by an independent outside firm , and my reasoning is this ;

I was told here some months ago by at least two different posters that the only thing keeping the AMA from receiving a literal deluge of fraudulent model aircraft theft insurance claims is the fact that a police report and signs of forced entry are required to be submitted with the insurance claim . Do you remember me having that conversation with a couple or few of our fellow RCU posters ? Well , if we the members are suspect of possibly giving in to the temptation of "easy money" by filing a false claim , what's to say a member directly affected by and involved in a vote won't also possibly give in to the all too Human temptation to skew the results in his own favor ? This is NOT any kinds of accusation , just to head THAT off before I get it thrown back at me , this is more a case of if we the members are suspect of possibly giving in to temptation then aren't ALL members subject to possibly giving in to their Human urges to "take advantage of the system" ? At what point does a member go from being someone who may follow their urges and needing built in "checks & balances" to insure the honesty of , to someone of such rock solid honesty that they are to be taken as being 100% beyond reproach and as honest as ol "Honest Abe" ?

The Scriptures are chock full of stories of Human temptation and NO MAN is above being tempted . Most do not follow those temptations . Some do . If checks & balances are required of us "unwashed masses" , shouldn't the same apply across the board , from us lowly members right on up to the EC ?

The outside counting of Ballots is just the kind of fair check & balance an election like this deserves if it's integrity is to not be called into question .
Honestly IMO counting of the ballots "in house" should not be done period. I just don't understand why it's now done this way.

Mike

Last edited by rcmiket; 09-20-2016 at 07:08 AM.
Old 09-20-2016, 07:05 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket View Post
Honestly IMO counting of the ballots should not be done period. I just don't understand why it's now done this way.

Mike
Hi Mike ,

Do you mean "Honestly IMO IN HOUSE counting of the Ballots should not be done period" ?

I ask this because the way your post reads it appears as though no one should count the ballots . We need them counted , just not by the folks who would be directly affected by the outcome .
Old 09-20-2016, 07:09 AM
  #61  
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Yea my bad. My computer ( or the operator) having a bad day. I corrected my mistake.

Thanks

Mike
Old 09-20-2016, 07:19 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket View Post
Yea my bad. My computer ( or the operator) having a bad day. I corrected my mistake.

Thanks

Mike
Great , I just wanted to make sure I understood your post correctly . I have started a Poll thread to gauge sentiment of whether an outside firm should do the counting or if it should be done in house .
Old 09-20-2016, 07:55 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Great , I just wanted to make sure I understood your post correctly . I have started a Poll thread to gauge sentiment of whether an outside firm should do the counting or if it should be done in house .
It was done by an outside firm....I'm not sure why that changed other than to cut costs. O well.

But you have to trust that the people in the AMA will do the right thing. Do you NOT trust your local club to count it's own ballets? Come on now.
Old 09-20-2016, 08:04 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by TimJ View Post
It was done by an outside firm....I'm not sure why that changed other than to cut costs. O well.

But you have to trust that the people in the AMA will do the right thing. Do you NOT trust your local club to count it's own ballets? Come on now.
My club does not have the kind of control along with the funds the AMA has. That's my concern with "in house" counting.


Mike
Old 09-20-2016, 08:20 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by TimJ View Post
It was done by an outside firm....I'm not sure why that changed other than to cut costs. O well.

But you have to trust that the people in the AMA will do the right thing. Do you NOT trust your local club to count it's own ballets? Come on now.
Hi Tim ,

Here's what I was getting at , and I hope you understand ;

Yes sir I do , I trust as an organization 100 % completely in the AMA . I wouldn't have been a member for 50 odd years if I didn't ....

Now , people on the other hand , people as individuals , I trust a good 95/98 ish % of . Not 100 % . No way no how . And that's based on years of seeing accumulated stories of people doing a very good job of hiding their bad character , the best example being these kindly friendly neighborhood good guy dudes who turn out to be serial killers or serial predators like that guy Sandusky who went to jail after hurting all those children all the while in the guise of "coach mr. nice guy" . Since neither You nor I or anybody else has a divining rod that will with 100 % certainty identify someone untrustworthy the entire civilized world is made up of checks & balances to attempt to thwart the ill intended . We , as members , have our checks & balances in the form I've already discussed . In times past , the AMA EC themselves saw fit to instill the check and balance of the outside count specifically to keep the integrity of the election at 100 % because they knew the old adage of "it only tales one bad apple ...." .

Last edited by init4fun; 09-20-2016 at 08:22 AM.
Old 09-20-2016, 08:33 AM
  #66  
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Oops , I forgot to answer your club question .

The club I belong to , at the fall meeting , has elections . Folks who have indicated their interest in running for a position put out a statement to the fellow members beforehand so everyone knows whose running . Come vote time , the candidates are sequestered outside the room and a "show of hands" vote is conducted , run by the present officers and plainly visible to all except the candidates themselves . The candidates themselves are the only ones who don't vote as presumably each would be voting for themselves and present club officers are only allowed to vote if they themselves are not seeking re election to their post . I know it sounds kinda primitive but it has worked for the club since the 1960s and all appear to have no problem with how the elections run since the entire process is done in front of all .

To add a clarification , when the show of hands voting is for president , the presidential candidates only go out of the room . When the voting for VP happens , only the VP candidates go out of the room . And so on for all the other positions . You as a candidate for VP most certainly can vote for president , treasurer , etc . so the only position you don't get to vote for is the one your running for .

I know , I know , it sounds archaic , but it does work , likely better in actual practice than in my somewhat limited explaination of it ...

Last edited by init4fun; 09-20-2016 at 09:04 AM. Reason: to add a clarification .....
Old 09-20-2016, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Especially if Rich is the one responsible for the 400 foot letter I really do hope he stays as govt. affairs representative if he does not win . I do believe he will win though , so we'll get to see if Chad & Travis can continue the good work that's already been done . So BTW you haven't yet told me , who do you think is gonna win , and what do you think the order of the rest of the votes will be ?
Just a point of clarification. at least from my perspective. I don't think Rich, or any one person is responsible for any letter or any waiver and/or exception that is made to the benefit of the AMA and it's members. Like any big project, it's the hard work of a collection of people. In this case Rich happens to be front and center, and I'm sure his communication skills and prior experience has come into play. There were other members of the EC that participated in discussions with regulators (Eric Williams comes to mind), as well as Chad, and lets not forget the professional lobbyists the AMA paid for too.
Old 09-20-2016, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket View Post
Honestly IMO counting of the ballots "in house" should not be done period. I just don't understand why it's now done this way.

Mike
Why is this suddenly an issue for you? How come this wasn't a complaint (from anyone actually) when the District VP elections were held? Given how few votes separated the winner in your district I would think people would have questioned that, but I don't recall a single compliant about that.

How about Leader Member Bylaw questionnaires, should those be handled by an outside vendor as well, incurring yet more costs and fees?

The role being voted on pays nothing......what again would be the motive to cheat to get this coveted role, especially since one of the candidates is already collecting a six figure salary?
Old 09-20-2016, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
As a proud member of the AMA's unwashed masses, those to be seen and not heard, I cast my ballot today. That said, I'm well aware that the same folks who will be counting ballots could be effected by the outcome, so I fully expect my vote will end up in the trash before it's counted.
That's the spirit. The ballot will be counted even if you didn't get the spelling of the name right, don't worry!
Old 09-20-2016, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Hi Tim ,

Here's what I was getting at , and I hope you understand ;

Yes sir I do , I trust as an organization 100 % completely in the AMA . I wouldn't have been a member for 50 odd years if I didn't ....

Now , people on the other hand , people as individuals , I trust a good 95/98 ish % of . Not 100 % . No way no how . And that's based on years of seeing accumulated stories of people doing a very good job of hiding their bad character , the best example being these kindly friendly neighborhood good guy dudes who turn out to be serial killers or serial predators like that guy Sandusky who went to jail after hurting all those children all the while in the guise of "coach mr. nice guy" . Since neither You nor I or anybody else has a divining rod that will with 100 % certainty identify someone untrustworthy the entire civilized world is made up of checks & balances to attempt to thwart the ill intended . We , as members , have our checks & balances in the form I've already discussed . In times past , the AMA EC themselves saw fit to instill the check and balance of the outside count specifically to keep the integrity of the election at 100 % because they knew the old adage of "it only tales one bad apple ...." .
Not having a go at you here, but I can't see the logic in saying on one hand you trust the AMA 100% as an organization, but then turn around and suggest they aren't trustworthy of counting ballots and that task should be paid for by an outside agency. Yes, I see the comments about "people", but the AMA is made up of people, not some nameless and faceless entity that operates in a vacuum. If you don't have trust in one, you can't have it with the other.
Old 09-20-2016, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TimJ View Post
It was done by an outside firm....I'm not sure why that changed other than to cut costs. O well.

But you have to trust that the people in the AMA will do the right thing. Do you NOT trust your local club to count it's own ballets? Come on now.
To better control the outcome, dearie.
Old 09-20-2016, 10:22 AM
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The fame, the power, the glory of the unpaid position as President.

Perhaps it's a stepping stone to even more high powered and prestigious unpaid positions.
Old 09-20-2016, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
Not having a go at you here, but I can't see the logic in saying on one hand you trust the AMA 100% as an organization, but then turn around and suggest they aren't trustworthy of counting ballots and that task should be paid for by an outside agency. Yes, I see the comments about "people", but the AMA is made up of people, not some nameless and faceless entity that operates in a vacuum. If you don't have trust in one, you can't have it with the other.
I think it's best to agree to disagree here .........
Old 09-20-2016, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Hi Tim ,

Here's what I was getting at , and I hope you understand ;

Yes sir I do , I trust as an organization 100 % completely in the AMA . I wouldn't have been a member for 50 odd years if I didn't ....

Now , people on the other hand , people as individuals , I trust a good 95/98 ish % of . Not 100 % . No way no how . And that's based on years of seeing accumulated stories of people doing a very good job of hiding their bad character , the best example being these kindly friendly neighborhood good guy dudes who turn out to be serial killers or serial predators like that guy Sandusky who went to jail after hurting all those children all the while in the guise of "coach mr. nice guy" . Since neither You nor I or anybody else has a divining rod that will with 100 % certainty identify someone untrustworthy the entire civilized world is made up of checks & balances to attempt to thwart the ill intended . We , as members , have our checks & balances in the form I've already discussed . In times past , the AMA EC themselves saw fit to instill the check and balance of the outside count specifically to keep the integrity of the election at 100 % because they knew the old adage of "it only tales one bad apple ...." .
Good for you. I belong for two reasons only: insurance and a local club requires it. I haven't seen any reason to trust anyone in headquarters for a long time. The amount of trust is inversely proportional to salary, benefits and expense reimbursements.
Old 09-20-2016, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
The fame, the power, the glory of the unpaid position as President.

Perhaps it's a stepping stone to even more high powered and prestigious unpaid positions.
So expense reimbursements aren't considered being paid?

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