For your NPRM Response...s.
#76
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Even if the NPRM were changed to include non AMA members access to FRIA sites , that still does not stop the private property owner from limiting ground operations to local club (dues paying members). I'm not so sure FAA can deny FRIA recognition to a location based on that specific detail, or if they will even care. In fact they may see that as being to their advantage by limiting availability of FRIA locations to the problematic drone activity. It's quite obvious after reading the NPRM that they are primarily concerned with cracking down on hobbyists that fly long distance drones.
Last edited by Tipover; 01-19-2020 at 09:50 AM.
#77
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Even if the NPRM were changed to include non AMA members access to FRIA sites , that still does not stop the private property owner from limiting ground operations to local club (dues paying members). I'm not so sure FAA can deny FRIA recognition to a location based on that specific detail, or if they will even care. In fact they may see that as being to their advantage by limiting availability of FRIA locations to the problematic drone activity. It's quite obvious after reading the NPRM that they are primarily concerned with cracking down on hobbyists that fly long distance drones.
Under the draft rule, the FRIAs function much like airports. In the full scale world, we do indeed have public and private airports. I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure FAA has them. However, there's ample numbers of both, and a quick glance at a few sectionals leads me to believe that the public airports far outnumber private ones. In the case of FRIAs, they are nearly all private. That is fundamentally different and the fatal flaw in the policy.
#79
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Under the draft rule, the FRIAs function much like airports. In the full scale world, we do indeed have public and private airports. I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure FAA has them. However, there's ample numbers of both, and a quick glance at a few sectionals leads me to believe that the public airports far outnumber private ones. In the case of FRIAs, they are nearly all private. That is fundamentally different and the fatal flaw in the policy.
#80
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Well the FAA certainly can't have it both ways. Considering that most public airports are generally near larger population urban areas, it would be counter productive for them to assume that the safest locations for model RC activities would also be public land spaces. I highly doubt they had any confusion over that distinction when they drafted the proposal.
The rule as written gives three options to comply: full RemoteID, FRIAs, or limited. When one of those options is all but exclusively controlled by ONE private dues collecting organization, I argue that fails to protect all citizens equally (members and non-members) as well as fails to provide federal due process protections in the event a PRIVATE organization says someone cannot join.
#81
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Originally Posted by grognards
I think the AMA tried their best to influence the NPRM, but were overmatched by the commercial stakeholders
Originally Posted by grognards
The AMA took it because it was the best they were going to get.
Regards,
Astro
#82
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Your position depends a lot on the definition of "larger population urban areas." Where I live now, State College PA, has a population of 42,000. Is that a "larger population urban area?" Because the local airport is public (UNV). As is nearby Midstate Airport (PSB), where nearest large population is Phillipsburg (pop. 2700). Similarly Bellefonte (N96) where population is about 6,000.
The rule as written gives three options to comply: full RemoteID, FRIAs, or limited. When one of those options is all but exclusively controlled by ONE private dues collecting organization, I argue that fails to protect all citizens equally (members and non-members) as well as fails to provide federal due process protections in the event a PRIVATE organization says someone cannot join.
Last edited by Tipover; 01-19-2020 at 01:37 PM.
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#85
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Originally Posted by grognards
If you agree, aren't you sort of taking the wrong side? Or do you think what is about to happen to "our" hobby is inevitable, so it's just a matter of academic interest?
I believe we could have been the "spotted owl" of the unmanned world had the AMA spoken up they would have been able to carve out exemptions for our traditional activities, (first come, first serve) and made the $$ making, commercial entities figure out a way to operate around us. As soon as the AMA lumped us in with the drones, there was no way to accomplish that.
The ONLY chance we have is to CLEARLY distinguish and separate from the drones. PERIOD. It may or may not be too late for that. Time will tell....
Get it?
Astro
Last edited by astrohog; 01-19-2020 at 03:07 PM.
#86
I quickly came to believe that what the AMA EC needed to distance us from was the flying camera , in all of it's incarnations (BLOS , preprogrammed flight , etc) . When "AMA doc. #550" first came out I was against it because I knew it's "spotter" requirement was hogwash , how was someone going to spot a model beyond it's operator's line of sight ?!?! I know it's water over the dam now but our organization's primary focus should have been on protecting us line of sight flyers VS attempting the power grab and morphing into a "jack of all trades , master of none" by incorporating FPV ...
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I think that there was a chance years ago to carve out a nice exemption for traditional RC activities... I believe we could have been the "spotted owl" of the unmanned world had the AMA spoken up they would have been able to carve out exemptions for our traditional activities, (first come, first serve) and made the $$ making, commercial entities figure out a way to operate around us...
So, maybe we should quit worrying about "who shot John" and concentrate on our NPRM comments? The FAA won't give us anymore than what's on the table if we don't ask for it. And some among us want to take away even that...
#88
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Well, maybe you're worried about the historical record, but I'm worried about one thing: March 2. That's the date the NPRM comment period closes. After that we will have had our say and the issue will be in the FAA's hands.
So, maybe we should quit worrying about "who shot John" and concentrate on our NPRM comments? The FAA won't give us anymore than what's on the table if we don't ask for it. And some among us want to take away even that...
So, maybe we should quit worrying about "who shot John" and concentrate on our NPRM comments? The FAA won't give us anymore than what's on the table if we don't ask for it. And some among us want to take away even that...
#90
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Quiet a lot:
- In the comment period for registration, AMA thumped their chest, spoke of all their influence with FAA, and prompted thousands of form letters advocating why toy planes should be exempt and/or if it has to happen, that AMA number should be permitted in lieu of registration. They got neither.
- In the run up to the FAA reauthorization bill, AMA thumped their chest, spoke extensively about their influence with lawmakers, and again prompted thousands of form letters advocating the importance of preserving 336 among other things. They got nothing. And 349 was published with severe limits on operations instead.
- Now, we're in the comment period for Remote ID. AMA is again thumping their chest and speaking endlessly about their influence. And again they're prompting thousands of form letters....
So, like I said above. One thing is for sure. AMA will do the same thing and hope for a different result. Now they make it worse by sending amateurs to major events and squander opportunities.
- In the comment period for registration, AMA thumped their chest, spoke of all their influence with FAA, and prompted thousands of form letters advocating why toy planes should be exempt and/or if it has to happen, that AMA number should be permitted in lieu of registration. They got neither.
- In the run up to the FAA reauthorization bill, AMA thumped their chest, spoke extensively about their influence with lawmakers, and again prompted thousands of form letters advocating the importance of preserving 336 among other things. They got nothing. And 349 was published with severe limits on operations instead.
- Now, we're in the comment period for Remote ID. AMA is again thumping their chest and speaking endlessly about their influence. And again they're prompting thousands of form letters....
So, like I said above. One thing is for sure. AMA will do the same thing and hope for a different result. Now they make it worse by sending amateurs to major events and squander opportunities.
#91
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and
So basically, you're going to campaign openly for the most restrictive regulations possible, and then have the nerve to blame the AMA for failing to stop you?
When no one can fly an RC airplane anywhere, I suppose that's "equality", at least in a trivial sense. But it is hardly JUSTICE.
When no one can fly an RC airplane anywhere, I suppose that's "equality", at least in a trivial sense. But it is hardly JUSTICE.
#92
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I see nothing but positive possibilities!
#93
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For example to allow flights in class G below 400 feet with only a spotter and altitude reporting telemetry. Just think of all the people that would be able to fly w/o a need to drive to a FRIA... Think of all the little Johnnys that would be positively influenced by seeing recreational sUAS flown at the park in walking distance of little Johnny's home (or school) vs. a FRIA that might very well be tens of miles away.
I see nothing but positive possibilities!
I see nothing but positive possibilities!
First of all, you're on record as requiring the landowner's permission for flying model airplanes on or over property. So Johnny has to get the park owner (probably the city) to approve his model airplane flying. Unlikely in this day and age, as more and more "park fliers" are finding out.
Second, the same system redundancy and terminal energy requirements you've proposed within a FRIA (which is mostly uninhabited space) will obviously also have to apply within the park boundaries. Little Johnny's airplane will be so full of throttle return springs, extra batteries, extra servos, and redundant flight controllers that it won't be able to get off the ground. More than that, it will have to be flown in such a way that if control is lost at any time for any reason, it will impact no closer than 100 feet to any "uninvolved person". Since Johnny has no control over the dog walkers and ball players who also use the park, he'll have to get the local police department to put signs up at all the entrances and trails, granting him exclusive use for a specified period of time. The municipal authorities will be glad to grant this - on the sixth Tuesday of the thirteenth month of every Leap Year.
Taken as a whole, your proposals effectively kill model aviation. Which of them would you like to modify or withdraw? Or is that really your goal?
#95
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I said:
To which you replied:
And here again, you will note the statement "Can a club, without explicit permission of the land owner, apply for FRIA status?" So here too it was abundantly clear that I was speaking only of FRIAs. Thus your comment was a clear misrepresentation. My comments related to land owners was clearly addressed ONLY for the case of FRIAs.
As to this statement:
Your initial statement is not necessarily true. Again, my comment about total energy was in the context of what types of recreational sUAS to regulate inside a FRIA. Here's what I actually said:
And low and behold, there it is again, a clear and unambiguous statement "... inside the FRIA..."
Also, the return spring is not an issue for the little Johnny example, as it's not a FRIA, not a club, and therefore is operating under park flyer safety code. And I'm sure you remember that's electric only, which makes the whole loss of battery with throttle full trivially easy. Lose the battery, no electricity to the motor. And it's easy to set a failsafe that also shuts down the motor if there's a BEC powering the receiver. So none of the parade of horribles you describe apply.
What I advocate will not kill the hobby. To the contrary. If FAA chooses to create more alternatives to the FRIA, because what was presented is fundamentally flawed, all those who don't go to club fields will surely benefit from having more places and options to fly legally w/o tithing to the AMA.
For example to allow flights in class G below 400 feet with only a spotter and altitude reporting telemetry. Just think of all the people that would be able to fly w/o a need to drive to a FRIA. Think of all the carbon emissions saved! Think of all the little Johnnys that would be positively influenced by seeing recreational sUAS flown at the park in walking distance of little Johnny's home (or school) vs. a FRIA that might very well be tens of miles away (emphasis added).
I see nothing but positive possibilities!
I see nothing but positive possibilities!
Which was a misrepresentation. My initial statement above was clearly talking about flights NOT at a FRIA. And as to the land owner permission aspect, here's what I actually said:
There's additional problems with the rule and thus more reasons to oppose FRIAs. One such reason is no specifics on what the site can and cannot claim as its geographic limits. It's not stated, and thus ambiguous. A second reason is what about the property owner's role? Can a club, without explicit permission of the land owner, apply for FRIA status? I think not. So I'm going to recommend that unless the club owns the land, the land owner must endorse the application (emphasis added).
As to this statement:
Second, the same system redundancy and terminal energy requirements you've proposed within a FRIA (which is mostly uninhabited space) will obviously also have to apply within the park boundaries. Little Johnny's airplane will be so full of throttle return springs, extra batteries, extra servos, and redundant flight controllers that it won't be able to get off the ground. More than that, it will have to be flown in such a way that if control is lost at any time for any reason, it will impact no closer than 100 feet to any "uninvolved person". Since Johnny has no control over the dog walkers and ball players who also use the park, he'll have to get the local police department to put signs up at all the entrances and trails, granting him exclusive use for a specified period of time. The municipal authorities will be glad to grant this - on the sixth Tuesday of the thirteenth month of every Leap Year.
I would say that generally speaking, I'm against anything over 55lbs. It's clear that FAA views those differently, and quite honestly I think those look more like something that should be individually registered, airworthiness checked, and inspected periodically (by someone in FAA).
As for the rest, I think we should be looking at total energy. That way it automatically accounts for mass, velocity, and altitude. Beyond that, I think limits need to based on the airspace. I personally believe there should be be altitude separation between majority of manned aircraft and unmanned. I'm skeptical of spotters as a mitigation. Why? AMA's own video demonstrating spotters show both operator and spotter tracking the aircraft. An EFFECTIVE spotter should be looking 360 around the site, NOT be a second set of eyes looking at the same airspace as the operator. Without visual acuity verification and hearing checks, my confidence in spotters goes way down. So that means in class G, it's 400 AGL. However, with altitude reporting telemetry and alarm on transmitter, I could support recreational sUAS limited to no higher than 100 feet below floor of class E at the site. In controlled airspace, I support whatever ATO agrees. Additionally, I advocate a ban on recreational sUAS inside the lateral limits of Military Training Routes during published hours of operation.
I don't want to give a hard and fast size, but rather limit by TE, flying site dimensions, altitude limits per above, and flight path. Idea being that at any point in the path, based on the current velocity vector, a complete loss of control would result in sUAS impacting inside lateral limits of FRIA and no closer to 100 feet from any non-participant (FAA's definition of participant) inside the FRIA.
As for the rest, I think we should be looking at total energy. That way it automatically accounts for mass, velocity, and altitude. Beyond that, I think limits need to based on the airspace. I personally believe there should be be altitude separation between majority of manned aircraft and unmanned. I'm skeptical of spotters as a mitigation. Why? AMA's own video demonstrating spotters show both operator and spotter tracking the aircraft. An EFFECTIVE spotter should be looking 360 around the site, NOT be a second set of eyes looking at the same airspace as the operator. Without visual acuity verification and hearing checks, my confidence in spotters goes way down. So that means in class G, it's 400 AGL. However, with altitude reporting telemetry and alarm on transmitter, I could support recreational sUAS limited to no higher than 100 feet below floor of class E at the site. In controlled airspace, I support whatever ATO agrees. Additionally, I advocate a ban on recreational sUAS inside the lateral limits of Military Training Routes during published hours of operation.
I don't want to give a hard and fast size, but rather limit by TE, flying site dimensions, altitude limits per above, and flight path. Idea being that at any point in the path, based on the current velocity vector, a complete loss of control would result in sUAS impacting inside lateral limits of FRIA and no closer to 100 feet from any non-participant (FAA's definition of participant) inside the FRIA.
Also, the return spring is not an issue for the little Johnny example, as it's not a FRIA, not a club, and therefore is operating under park flyer safety code. And I'm sure you remember that's electric only, which makes the whole loss of battery with throttle full trivially easy. Lose the battery, no electricity to the motor. And it's easy to set a failsafe that also shuts down the motor if there's a BEC powering the receiver. So none of the parade of horribles you describe apply.
What I advocate will not kill the hobby. To the contrary. If FAA chooses to create more alternatives to the FRIA, because what was presented is fundamentally flawed, all those who don't go to club fields will surely benefit from having more places and options to fly legally w/o tithing to the AMA.
#96
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Not if "the hobby" is electric powered, weighs less than 2lb, and is limited to 60 MPH.
And you failed utterly to address the main point: Those parks "within walking distance of little Johnny's home" which are airplane friendly may exist only in your imagination. Where is your survey data showing such venues are actually available? And that they can accomodate an increasing number of fliers driven out of now-closed club fields after you shut the FRIAs down?
#98
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So now you are on record as advocating one set of safety rules for those who operate in FRIAs, and a different set for those operating outside. NOT because their equipment is different -- many club members fly park flyers at club fields -- but simply because of the venue. That's not "equal protection of the laws".
I see that that a FEDERALLY recognized site could rationally be held to a higher standard given the locus of activity there, and the presence of larger numbers of larger, faster, and higher flying sUAS. I could also see a rational reason that the standards are higher when there is a public event at such sites. Ultimately though, what I can see is classes of sUAS based on total energy, with "crash no closer than" distances according to those energy totals. Obviously electrics will enjoy a big advantage, as loss of power or signal means immediate loss of motive power. Also, the park flyers are smaller (less mass), limited to 60 MPH (less kinetic energy), and limited to 400 AGL or lower (less potential energy). Combination of all three of those means much smaller bubbles.
And you failed utterly to address the main point: Those parks "within walking distance of little Johnny's home" which are airplane friendly may exist only in your imagination. Where is your survey data showing such venues are actually available? And that they can accomodate an increasing number of fliers driven out of now-closed club fields after you shut the FRIAs down?
#99
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There are vastly more operators who's sUAS are closer to these parameters than those who fly large, fast, and high flying types. AMA has 110,000 paying members. Already outnumbered by the approx 2.2 lb group by 8:1. And that subset of AMA members that fly large, fast, and high flying stuff is even smaller. I just don't see public policy being centered on a small minority of a small minority.
You remind me of the story about Isaac Newton's cat. He got so attached to it that he invented the pet door. When the cat had kittens, he had a smaller door cut so they could come and go as well.
In case you missed it, the flaw in his reasoning is that both large and small cats can use a large hole. And both large and small planes can use a large field. There is no reason - none - to put more restrictions on park fliers just because they are flown in FRIA.
#100
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That's mitigated, or overshadowed, by other factors. People who live near club fields, or frequently visit them, soon become familiar not only with model airplanes in general, but the various types and their capabilities. They tend to keep an eye out for them. They know what's potentially dangerous and what isn't. The public in parks, on the other hand, tends to be generally clueless, distracted, otherwise engaged, or virtually unconscious.
Not every club hosts public events. There is no reason to set everyday public policy based on things that happen two or three times per year. Of course spectators need to be kept a certain distance from the flight line, that's easily handled with signs and caution tape.
Unless you're accounting for the energy of the splinters, "crash no closer than" is just ridiculous -- an inch is as good as mile. Recommended "stand no closer to the flight line than" distances might have some merit. I believe the 500' standard used at full-scale airshows is generally credited with preventing spectator deaths at US airshows since the 1950's. Obviously smaller distances would be appropriate for models.
Don't forget that the latest fatal casualty (at the slope soaring event in Taiwan) was killed by a sailplane, about 500 yards from the flying site. Loss of power doesn't equal immediate loss of energy. And the victim was in a public park. Maybe if a FRIA equivalent had been established she would have been expecting model airplanes flying around and kept a lookout?
There are vastly more operators who's sUAS are closer to these parameters than those who fly large, fast, and high flying types. AMA has 110,000 paying members. Already outnumbered by the approx 2.2 lb group by 8:1. And that subset of AMA members that fly large, fast, and high flying stuff is even smaller. I just don't see public policy being centered on a small minority of a small minority.
You remind me of the story about Isaac Newton's cat. He got so attached to it that he invented the pet door. When the cat had kittens, he had a smaller door cut so they could come and go as well.
In case you missed it, the flaw in his reasoning is that both large and small cats can use a large hole. And both large and small planes can use a large field. There is no reason - none - to put more restrictions on park fliers just because they are flown in FRIA.
In case you missed it, the flaw in his reasoning is that both large and small cats can use a large hole. And both large and small planes can use a large field. There is no reason - none - to put more restrictions on park fliers just because they are flown in FRIA.
Note 1: https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_safety/airshows/
and https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/airshow/waiver/ (among others)