One theme that has appeared repeatedly in this forum, and virtually every other forum where the AMA is discussed, is that the AMA is ineffective in communicating with it's membership.

This issue ranges from insurance coverage to helping clubs keep fields, and everywhere between.

This forum is frequented by only a couple of hundred members, at the most. It is not a great source for the average member.

The AMA has a web site. Apparently, it is not effective in getting messages out to the general membership. Model Aviation Magazine carries a lot of information, but, again, the information does not get out to the membership.

At the club level, the Club Renewal package carries information that is important to clubs, yet most clubs, and their members, are not aware of the messages it contains.

How CAN the AMA reach YOU and/or your club? What media, what format, will reach the average member?

Please, if you have an idea, throw it out on the table for discussion. This affects all of us. Those of you that normally lurk, rather than post, make your thoughts known on this issue.

JR

good ole reliable snail mail.
most folk will still read that which gets mailed to em.
don't mix it in with advertisements or any other extranious material, just what ya wana pass on, to the point and concise.

JR,
I'm not a member yet, but I would think that an e-mail update/option would help, if not already in place. Most ppl now have computrs and I-access. I know when I join that I would use this option, plus it would be much more cost effective. I know from checking the local clubs newsletters that they have saved a large portion of their paper newsletter price by making them available on-line.(much more cost effective)

Just my .10 [8D]

Brian

JR-
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my view the essence of the issue is the withholding of information rather than having adequate channels to communicate it.
You mentioned insurance coverage, and that provides a good example. It may be a cost issue to send a copy of the policy to every member, but what about sending a copy to each club where it could be accessed easily by at least half of the membership? Putting it on the web site has been mentioned, and is an obvious answer for many that would involve little cost. It isn't there because somebody doesn't want you to have it.
The EC meeting minutes are another example. In any picked at random you will find items like this one from the last EC meeting:
"E-mail vote of June 16, 2003 re the proposal EC-05-02.
7 no; 2 yes; two districts did not vote and there was one abstention."
How informative is that to the average member? Was it supposed that we all should know what EC-05-02 is about? I submit that it was for a $6,000,000 golden parachute for Dave Brown. If you know different, pray tell.
Then there is the 1st Motion, to make a 'minor change to AMA's definition of a model aircraft' that most members will never see until they receive and read the 2004 Safety Code. Then they might notice that a small but significant minority of modelers that fly autonomous models have been disenfranchised by 'their' organization by this 'minor' change without any notice or any discussion by anyone not present at the EC meeting - it wasn't even on the agenda, and after the fact it isn't in the minutes, except for the silly rationale behind it.
AMA fails to communicate with members when they don't want members' input while they are dealing with issues that impact us but they know better than we do what is good for us, and at times when they don't want us to know what they have done even after the fact. It has much less to do with lack of media for distribution of information than it does with lack of motivation to have an informed membership.

H(*)

horrasse

First, I found out something recently that I did not know. If any member requests a copy of the minutes, and addendums to the minutes, they are sent as no charge. If you want minutes, other than the current ones, you have to pay $5 for handling. I have suggested that they put the addendums up on the web site along with the minutes. I was told that the only reason it had not been done so far is that often they are often not available in electronic form. They are looking into putting them as scans into .pdf format. Sometimes, it is just a matter of asking or pointing out an oversight. That is a major problem with the web site. VERY FEW even bother to look at it.

I have watched the Minutes for quite some time. This is my opinion, but I am sure that Joyce will confirm or deny what I state. Send her a note. I believe that the section underneath the fact that the vote was taken, is what they issue voted on was. You will notice the bullets on the Minutes that set the items apart.

I think all they did was to formally require that supporting documents accompany requests for a vote.

JR

Here is the section as it appears in the minutes:

The following E-mail vote results were read into the minutes:

E-mail vote of June 16, 2003 re the proposal EC-05-02.
7 no; 2 yes; two districts did not vote and there was one abstention.

Sufficient information pertaining to issues to be voted on will accompany all requests for a vote. Criteria had never been established for an EC non-vote on contest board matters. Currently, non-votes by EC members (pertaining to CB matters) are treated different than non-votes by CB members. It was agreed that in those cases, EC vote will be subject to the contest board criteria.

horasse

I pressed the send button accidently in the prior post. Let me also address some of your other concerns. When I asked for the Minutes and addendums, I also got a copy of the Intro Membership package, a copy of the addendum with the definition of a model, the Scholorship Committee Recommendatins, the Nominating Committee Minutes, and the new document addressing Compulsory Club Bylaws.

As for the definition of a model and the 2004 Safety Code, it has been posted on the AMA site for a while. The definition is not the only change. The one that woke me up was the one prohibiting intentionally touching parts of a plane to the ground, except for landing. See the Safety Code to see exactly what it says.

On the insurance situation: there is concern about putting the policy on the net. Simply put, they don't want attorneys looking at it just because they have nothing better to do. On the other hand, they know that any member can have a copy by requesting it and paying $5. So an attorney can get it for the cost of a membership plus $5. They are looking at making the Member's Only section more secure. It has been "backdoored" and the Financial Statement has been posted on the net. They have no problem with members discussing the documents, or having access to them, but they do have a problem with the documents being posted for general prusial by just anyone. Sending it to clubs is a great idea. The only problem I see with that is that somewhere between 20 and 50% of all members are not club members.

While I think that the EC does, more times than not, request input on Safety Code items, there are times when they make changes in a hurry do to current events. I am not sure if there is any real option to this, or not.

JR

The prior posts that I made to horasse are exactly what I am asking about. How can the AMA get out the fact that all you have to do is ask, or request, or go look? How can they communicate to each and every member, and each and very club what the AMA is, what it does, and how it works?

The information I get is not privileged or special. It is available to all members. How can the AMA reach YOU?

As a MEMBER of the AMA, they have my snail-mail address, my e-mail address, my home phone number as well as work number. If they WANT to get in touch with me, it sure wouldn't be hard...
As a Leader Member, they should WANT me to know as much as I care to know so as to be able to convey that info to my fellow members. But do you think they go out of their way? No... On the other hand, do I go out of MY way???....not really.
I want to be knowledgeable of the workings of AMA but I don't feel I need to know who went to the pot and when and what they did when they went there about everything and everybody. I think that the AMA MOST OF THE TIME does MOST things in my best interest (as member). There are SOME things that they do that I don;t think they should do and they aren't going to tell me much about that without my really snooping and asking a bunch of questions and then how much do you think they are really going to tell me? IE: using membership funds in the stock market....
Oh, well, I am sure that you, JR, and others will tell all...that's why I monitor this forum...

Bob

Thanks... I think.

Would anyone watch a 1-1 1/2 hour video on their own tv if it was sent by the AMA trying to explain things or would it just be put aside as the membership manual is?

JR

JR-
Please tell us where you got those amazing rose-colored glasses!
Your inquiries about items that AMA failed to communicate got in reply excuses as to why they do not want to communicate information that members should have. Doesn't that tend to answer the topical question you started this thread with?
It may be just me, but it seems pretty lame that the insurance policy is withheld from members to keep it safe from casual browsing by lawyers. If a lawyer is even remotely considering suit against an AMA insured, you can be damned sure he WILL get a copy of it. I have to think that you know that, with your background in the insurance business. The excuse we get as to why Doug Holland doesn't communicate is that he can't type. Sandy Frank doesn't communicate coherently because he can't construct a simple English sentence. Lots of excuses, few answers.
My attitude toward having to pry information out of AMA was well stated by Bob, and I think the vast majority of members are of a similar mindset. Honestly, of the 170,000 or so members, I know of none other than yourself that is willing to making a second career out of digging for information that should have been made freely available in a perfunctory manner. Unless one keeps up with discussions that occur in forums like this one, and I think you will agree most do not, it would be impossible to even know what questions to ask. Even for the few of us that do, should we be expected to call Ms Hager to inquire if there are addenda to the published minutes that might be pertinent to issues we are interested in?
Consider the modelers that will be impacted by the Safety Code change that prohibits autonomous flight. Except for one or two that might have happened onto some discussion that took place here, how would they have a clue that the insurance they rely on is voided when they continue to pursue their particular interests? They won't learn about it until they get the Safety Code card with their membership card, AFTER they have paid AMA dues for 2004. Should they have:
-known that Dave Brown woke up screaming over terrorists launching model airplanes loaded with weapons of mass destruction? This apparently happened before last June (2002), as both he and the MA Editor wrote about it with sufficient lead time to have it in the Aug 2002 issue.
-known that the "minor' wording change to the Safety Code proposed by Brown's #2 gofer at the Jul 2003 EC meeting and approved unanimously excluded their activity from insurance coverage? Not one of the EC members dared utter a word to the effect that the emperor's new clothes looked funny, yet it seems their action is too embarrassing to disclose to the membership.
What questions should these AMA members have asked so they would have known they've been screwed before they send in their dues for 2004 renewal?
You can categorize it as 'changes in a hurry due to current events' if you please, though I don't know why you would given that Brown has been stirring this particular dog pile for over a year.
I see it as deliberate information hiding.
I really need some of those rose-colored glasses.

Abel

Abel

From more than any other single person, I got them from you! Look back at your posts over the last several years. The thing that stands out is the questions that you ask and their source. They are never made up hypotheticals that are unreasonable. You use as the source of your questions, documents that are published by the AMA. Things we all have access to. You ask probing questions. You taught me where to find the questions to ask.

Running a close second is Bill Lee. You may remember a number of exchanges that I have had with him. I labeled him an “insider� and he got upset. He kept saying that anyone could get the information if they asked the right question. I took him at his word and started asking the questions I had learned how to ask from you.

The third factor is that I do not have a problem asking anything of anyone. If I feel a question needs answering, I ask it. I do try not to alienate people. Abel, you saw the results of that when I wrote to every member of the EC and published the answers. I think that you would have to agree it was an adversarial approach that I took. I am a firm believer in the old adage that you can tell anyone to go to hell if you make them look forward to the trip. There is no reason that asking “hard� questions should cause you to make enemies. A little tact goes a long way and brings much better results. I often take the approach that I need some help, rather than saying “give it to me or else�. Most people do not respond well to threats… real or implied.

When I ask the questions, I proceed on the assumption that the AMA is a non-profit organization and that most documents must be made available to the membership. Such was the case with the Nominating Committee Minutes. I assumed they existed and I asked how I could get a copy. Not all documents are going to be disclosed, and rightfully so. I do not think it would be right to disclose the salary of each individual at HQ, as an example. The total salaries are one thing and the individual information is another. Some common sense must be applied.

Most questions only take a three line e-mail to solicit a reply. In most cases, it is not necessary to call anyone. How long does it take to write a three line e-mail? Certainly not long enough to be classified as an avocation.

Occasionally, I see, or hear an answer, and I know the response has no “heart’ behind it, such as the issue of putting the insurance policy on the AMA web page. In other terms, the individual did not fully believe in the excuse and it was obvious. In that same conversation, it was, again, confirmed that the policy does not yet exist in writing. My conclusion was that there was no reason to push about publishing something that does not yet exist. The time will come when it does exist, and I will pursue it again. Sometimes, hearing what you have said, repeated back has amazing affects on people.

In the case of Doug Holland, I called him on a couple of occasions. I asked him some very pointed questions at the time, as I am sure you can remember my reporting. He told me that he does not type well. I have a great deal of faith in my ability to determine when someone is telling me the truth. I believed him, and so reported.

I am neither going to defend or support the new definition of a model. The part I will defend is this. The 2004 Safety Code must be set at the time of renewal in order to hold the membership responsible to it. The 2004 Safety Code was up on the AMA site before the renewals were mailed. Is it a good reason for expediting the definition? I won’t argue either way. Simply put, I have not made up my mind about it. It was certainly a quick and easy process to get the definition once I knew the question to ask, as I am sure you remember. It took at three line e-mail.

Sometimes I like the reasons given that things are done and sometimes I do not. I have no “special� relationships, although I have managed to make a few friends along the way.

Now, you have your rose colored glasses. How do we extend the information here so that all members may have them?

JR

Well JR just to see if anything is mentioned that is being done I have actually been reading MA and ya know what, there isnt a dang thing in there worth reading. The only thing MA seems to publish is positive propoganda. Take the last issue with the flight across the atlantic. with all the talk abt how AMA shouldnt be involved and the questions abt Dave's motives etc not 1 question was answered just a bunch of positive spin on the flight. Sure we all know it was a great feat but with all kinds of questions going around Dave could have at least clarified things. What about all the talk going on abt CD's at some events letting things get out of hand? if the safety committee ios looking into those things why arent they mentioned? MA is just a propoganda tool for the EC and you never see them discussing issues that may cause a rift between 2 factions. You look on the AMA site and any notes from any meetings are vague. Blah blah blah brought up whatever and then some motion made. what was said who said what what were the positives what were the negatives of the meetings. You stand up for the AMA in most cases and seem to be defending them here. My question is where is all this detailed information you are saying is being mentioned? all there are is vague references to info and no in depth information being given out. its more like communist propoganda and dictatorship than democratic. the EC does what they want and if they dont want info getting out they dont put it out. If they dont want to touch a problem they tell the membership to do all the work and bring them the facts knowing it would be most impossible to get enough details to make them happy. Information I havent seen any information yet just propoganda.

Joe

Joe

Do you have the intestinal fortitude to ask Dave Brown whose money he went to Ireland on? I don’t think you do. Because you were so interested, I did ask him in a phone call. The information was also posted on the net. I will put a copy of that at the end of my reply, so that you do not have to take my version at face value.

You have no idea of how the AMA works. That is your fault as well as the fault of the AMA. And yes, it is their fault for not finding a way to let you have information you apparently want by spoon feeding you. I am not going to address your carping this time, other than to tell you where the information is. GO GET IT YOURSELF. You seem to fancy yourself as some kind of crusader. Find out how the system works. I asked you a month ago if you knew who was on the Safety Committee and you said you did not. Do you now? If you are going to gripe, doing it on RCU is a waste.

Quit just looking at the picutures in MA. At least one other member of RCU found something of interest and started a thread here about it. The loss in the stock market of $400,000. I guess you view that as positive propaganda. Your view of positive propagada and mine appear to be widely seperated.

Go to the AMA web site. Download the rule book. Read everything there that has to do with the rules making process. Find out what a SIG is and how it interfaces with the Safety Committee. Find out how the Safety Committee interfaces with the EC. If you don’t want the information, then do us all a favor and SHUT UP. It’s there, it is ALL there. This is not the first time I have pointed you to the site.

JR

The following was posted on the D2 list on SEPTEMBER 10:

Morning Horrace,
Frankly, I couldn't agree more with your comments. For the benefit of those that may not be aware, because it coincided with the Brown's planned vacation to Ireland, not one cent of the cost of Dave's being a part of this historical event was absorbed by the AMA. It's sad to see some try to tarnish such a significant accomplishment by Maynard and his team to further whatever their own agenda might be. And I guarantee you that if someone handed Dave a check to cover the cost of his entire trip there, he'd hand it right back. I've seen him do it before! He puts most of the rest of us to shame with the amount he contributes out of his own pocket in the course of doing his job.
Dave

Dave Mathewson
AMA Vice President, District 2
7271 State Fair Blvd.
Baldwinsville, NY 13027
315.727.4275
315.635.1039 (Fax)

-----Original Message-----
From: AMA District 2 Discussion [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 12:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Reference an RCU thread attacking DB and the Atlantic Flight.

I posted this on the new RCU. Posting is finally working in spite of my firewall system



Now I will say that regardless of our politics, Dave Brown is the elected President of the Academy of Model Aeronautics and is the main man to represent the sport of model aviation on the national and international levels.

DB is a volunteer and he spends many days working for model aviation (Yes I do argue that point but that is a personality thing).

A very talented person, Maynard Hill, veteran of many years in Applied Physics at John Hopkins Univ., has accomplished a significant FIRST for the good ol' USA. It would be a slap in the face to both DB and MH, if the AMA President was NOT there to finish the event.

This is great publicity for aeromodeling and for the USA.

Personally, I am ashamed for any member of the aeromodeling community, and especially AMA members, that would accept less than DB being fully reimbursed by the corporation to include First Class all the way.

Come on beggars, get a life. Yes, I am a candidate for AMA office, and I will volunteer the many hours such office requires, plus a significant amount of un-reimbursed expense. However everything has its limit.

What the _ell are YOU doing?

Horrace D. Cain
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."
— THOMAS JEFFERSON








Horrace D. Cain
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."
— THOMAS JEFFERSON

Now Jr you are misinterpreted what I was saying again. I was not brining up old issues to debate on, but aswering your questions abt information. I was just giving examples. Here the AMA has a great place to get info oput to the membership with their website and MA but they never do that. All they seem to do is give very vague details of their mettings or promoted their agendas in MA and always tell positives and never mention anything they are looking into or discussing and giving information to the membership what is going on behind closed doors. the only time the membership hears anything is AFTER they do something.

As for my crusade I am doing things back channel and have dialogs going with a couple EC members. Because it is close to the end of the season there isnt much of a chance to get the data they are asking for so I will worry abt it next season and form a posse to help me when they goto various events.

so in reguards to your questions its not how can they get the info to us its do they want to and why dont they give us detailed information. I normally pitch MA as to me its a waste of my money to get it, But to be fair recently I have been reading it to see what they might be putting in there that I am missing and so far I see I have just been wasting my time. the only thing worthwhile was the laugh I got reading some of the speeches some of the people running for office were making, but nothing abt anything the ec is currently looking into or discussing. Again its not how to get the information to us but that they start using the toold they have like MA and their website and start giving more details. sure you can spend 5 bucks to get a copy of something after they have concluded but why not put it for free in MA where anyone can get it. It would save them the headaches of making copies at 5 bucks a pop or is it just another way for them to make a few bucks here and there off the membership.

Joe

Joe

Re-read my post to horasse and re-read the reply to you. To be fair, I was editing the one to you when you were making your last post.

JR

The problem JR is I agree with Abel and that we should be SPOONFED the info. we should not have to send in a special request to read the minutes of a meeting it should be posted in entirety on their website. We are paying for the people working at HQ get one of them typing the stuff up so it can be posted. As for the loss of 400,000 no it wasnt positive but hey with the way the market is going who wouldnt expect it. Now Bill had told me that the Safety Committee was looking into the issue of 3D flying (just using as an example here not a issue debate) If they have been looking into it and discussing it where are the reports posted of what they had looked into or what they are considering as possibilities to rectify it?. That is one example and knowing the way things work we wont hear anything about it until they have their final solution. ANYTHING the EC does or Saftety Committee or ANYthing being discussed at HQ should be posted either on their website or in MA AS they discuss it and give updates as time goes on. WE shouldnt have to write letters asking for this information it should be spoonfed to use WE ARE PAYING FOR IT IN OUR DUES!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Inurance policy should also be posted as who cares of some attourney looks at it because if the policy was worth a crap they wouldnt have to worry abt the lawyers.

Joe

Joe

Take my suggestion. Find out how the rules are changed. It's apparent that you believe that the EC debates each change for some time, unencumbered by outside input, then makes a decision. That is not, typically, how the process works. The information you think you want may not be in the posession of the AMA at all.

As with every article in MA, it is going to have different values to each individual. Obviously, to you, the current issue does not have value, while to many others it does. To paraphrase: information is in the eye of the beholder. I am sure you will get substantial debate which information is more important. I certainly take exception to your characterization of MA as a positive propaganda tool.

Minutes of any organization that I have been associated with can be rather cryptic until you get the hang of reading them. Abel normally does an excellent job of gleaning the issues, as do many other longtime readers. If what you want is every conversation that takes place within the AMA to be transcribed for you... it ain't gonna happen.

The minutes of the EC used to be carried in full. Very few show any interest in them and they now appear in a condensed format. The limitations of printing costs aside, it makes more sense to put things that the general membership has little interest in somewhere else, such as on the web site. It would be to everyone's benefit to go back in the MA archives in the Member's Only Section to around 1979-1980 to see what it used to be like. If you search for "AMA News" you will find a section that is about 15 pages. Read a couple of months worth and see if that is what you want. It is what I would prefer, but, I am in the huge minority.

The question remains. How does the AMA get you that information that is available in a way you are willing to assimilate it? It is there for you. How do they get it into your head? At this point, they are not even getting the basic information out to the members.

JR

That question is the basis of this thread.

Well one way would be like an email service. just subscribe to it and each month or whatever you get something pops into your email.

Joe

Hey JR-
This looks like a trick question....
There is only one name associated with the Safety Committee on the AMA web site.
From that I gather:
Safety Committee = Exclude-All-Risk-From-Insurance-Coverage Committee
Is the information I have incomplete?

Abel

[/quote]

Hey JR-
This looks like a trick question....
There is only one name associated with the Safety Committee on the AMA web site.
From that I gather:
Safety Committee = Exclude-All-Risk-From-Insurance-Coverage Committee
Is the information I have incomplete?

Abel
[/quote]
ROFLMAO

Abel? horasse? Abel?

It is and is not a trick question. I suggested to Joe some time ago that he make some inquiries about the makeup of the Safety Committee. He was corrosponding with Oberdieck at the time.

I believe that only EC and HQ members are on the committee lists in the members only section, in order to protect privacy. I never bothered to ask. I do know that Don Lowe is the Chairman of the committee. I can only assume there are others besides your buddy.

JR

Hey! Stop that! Only J.Spence A.K.A UNOWHO A.K.A. Sandy Frank is allowed to carry on business with multiple aliases.

The major reason the AMA has difficulty communicating with the membership is that most members do not wish to be communicated with. They just want to go fly. (Or maybe spend their time BSing on the various forums.)

Jim

Let me try to put this thread back on track. Here is an idea. Where is it wrong? Better yet, throw out your own idea.

Someone at AMA HQ must have a decent voice. This is to be an inexpensive production, not a high dollar effort. Equipped with a video camera, do a short interview with the main players at HQ, having them explain what they do, what the benefit to the member/club is. Show HQ, the Museum, and Muncie briefly and explain their function. Show the web site and explain its content. Explain how to contact those in the video. Do a short interview with each member of the EC to allow them to explain what committees they are on, and the process that is used in decision making. Have someone explain the darned insurance. Not to be political in nature at all. Something that could be redone each year. Nothing with a lot of money invested in it.

This could be put on tape, CD of DVD. Whatever is financially expedient. Copies to be sent to every member and a couple to clubs. When clubs meet with press, or local authorities, it would be something the club could give to them. It should be 1-1/2 hours in length. Something a member can watch on their TV when and where they want.

JR

JR-

Good idea, if everybody in the video is barefoot.

Abel

Exactly. Well said