Can I ask you a question? Why would anyone build a plane like you describe, knowing full well, in advance, that it will be what you consider to be unsafe?

I agree that twins should be allowed more weight (read fuel).

Up until recently there was some sympathy for this position. The way the waiver holders have attacked DB, the EC as a whole and the entire situation, my suggestion is: don't hold your breath.

While virtually the entire EC was aligned with the new turbine proposals, the uninformed attacks on them has not been helpful. Look back to the first days after the EC meeting. Some of the e-mails sent back then and posted on RCU, and elsewhere showed a total lack of understanding of the issues and a lot of emotion was misdirected.

Coupled with the fact that this issue was pulled off the table during the EC meeting by the TRC I doubt that it will be visited again soon.

So JR. in your position as AMA EC and associates' public relations spokesman, you are warning that the EC will now punish those that rose up against the EC's sacred business methods (Chinese Fire-Drills) and thus preserve the EC's holy position of the all-knowing Big Brother.
The AMA EC frequently makes rules/decisions and then has to go back and revise or eliminate those rules/decisions. That is nothing new. (Reference some years ago, the member/member insurance fiasco, the combat thing, and others too much to review here.)
What was new about the JPO was that the EC passed something and then ONE person is unhappy and that ONE person applies pressure to get a quick Hold on the passed subject, NOT just a later review, and the entire remaining members of the EC succumb to that pressure. Not one has the intestinal fortitude to stand up and be counted as one that is satisfied with his original decision.
This is adequate proof to me that my position all along for years is correct: Dave Brown runs the EC with an iron hand and any significant decision forthcoming is just what he wants.

Couple this with the fact that Headquarters now does as they please with whatever they want, and the EC is now simply a name. As Mark Twain spoke about the American justice system, Americans and the English, the efficiency is "....marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men every day who doesn't know anything and can't read." IMO, I suppose the AMA membership has found the perfect jury.

OTOH, the AMA's entire management system has exactly what they have worked for every since even before the Safety Code and that is to have a membership that has no clue to how AMA operates, let alone how AMA SHOULD operate. Regardless of how much they screw the memberships there will always be enough pimps bellowing how well AMA does, to get the vote (so few doing the job of many) to allow the status-quo to remain in force.

So actually who found who? The membership found the perfect jury, OR the JURY has found the perfect membership????

Horrace

It is certainly nice to see that your overwhelming rejection by the AMA membership two years ago and more recently by the D8 memberhip has not reduced your ability to produce misleading and venomous statements and opinions.

BTW, did you get your variance for your field?

JR

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Let me repeat what I SAID and please read more than just the first two sentences instead of trying to put words in my mouth! In fact, read the ENTIRE paragraph! I have even put in a space to break out the part of what I said that you seem to have ignored.

Horrace

I know it must gall you and eat at your ego tremendously to find that what I have been saying for the last two years is starting to take root. AMA members on the internet are slowly starting to believe what I have been saying: that they can communicate with the AMA leadership and get honest, direct answers to their questions if they will take the time to call or e-mail them in a civil manner. F106A and ProfLooney, who post in this forum, immediately come to mind, along with many others. Although both of these individuals disagree with a most of my opinions, they have found that they can get answers that are important to them. They no longer have to rely on the tripe and conspiracy theories you espouse. Re-reading MA and the EC minutes for minutia is useful up to a point, beyond which, questions need to be answered. Questions, the answer to which, you would prefer to put your spin on rather than find the truth through direct communication.

It has to really upset you when a public rift appears in the EC. You would much prefer to continue to anoint them as the ‘Good ‘ol Boys’ or the ‘Merry Eleven’ (never could figure that one out since there are 14 members of the EC) rather than the independent individuals that they are. The days of you’re inaccurate representations are numbered.

I always enjoy posting. I am reminded of an interview that the Sr. President Bush gave after giving a speech. He told the reporter than he needed to hurry home and watch CNN so that he might find out what he had said. In my case, I always eagerly await your posting so that I might know what it was that I posted.

JR

JR,

I don't think that any of the comments were particularily being directed towards the EC as a whole. I think the EC did a good job in the first place. And if they really believe that the issues need revisting then by all means. Now DB's position has been steadfast against the proposal from day one. The District V VP can't think on his own anyway, but other than that I don't see the turbine community bashing the EC. Just DB.

Ha Ha that's pretty funny!

David

Go back and look at some of the comments and copies e-mails in the jet forum before it became known that the basic issue was speed limiters. Before it became known that the TRC/JPO had pulled the weight issue off the table. Heck, look at your own post that berated the EC in this very forum, one you corrected within hours, with another post.

David, tell me, why would someone go to the expense and effort of building a model that is within a few pounds of the weight limit, knowing it is unsafe to fly it with the amount of fuel left under the 55 pound limit?

JR

More unitended consequences.....

The old rules called for rating motors with installed thrust. We could rate motors at higher output and then tell the user dial them back to achieve the installed thrust number they needed for any particular installation, pipe configuration etc....everyone is happy.....has that been dropped in the new rules??

So if they do not raise the thrust limit, we will drop back to 35 lbs, uninstalled. We just lost several pounds of thrust right there......it just keeps getting better.


As for the weight issue, not everyone flies at an AMA field, I would guess 90% of all my flights are not under AMA rules. I am only under AMA rules when I go to a ralley, so maybe I have a plane that can only be partially fueled at an AMA event. Some of the guys at the World Masters go through the same thing. No big deal.

Thanks Matt, that makes sense.

Was the weight limit for the World Masters dropped down last year?

No JR I have not been critical (intentionally) of the entire EC just the blind puppet from District V. And Dave te Dicatator at the top of the heap. The jet community has some level headed friends on the EC guys that did go to bat for us over the new set of rules. I don't think this whole issue would have stuck us so much in our craws if the rules had not been passed by a sound majority. Then DB pulls some emergency BS. I have read the minutes of the EC meeting and don't find anything in their about a request to put the rules into abeyance then, there was no discussion that anyone had a problem with them until AFTER the meeting had adjourned, the rules passed, and all the people that could answer questions gone home.

Jim,

Where in the hell did you come up with this notion that EVERYBODY in the jet community is breaking all of these various rules??? You say by jet jockies' own admissions....Maybe a few have bent the rules a little, however, I don't see these rules being broken flagrantly...Especially rules that REALLY offer some safety value!!! Those of us that DO know exactly what goes on are laughing and shaking our heads is disbelief that you can be so hard headed, and ignorant!!! I, as well as others, are HIGHLY offended by you accusations----Accusations that you make with NO MERIT due to have never attended a jet rally. Bud...This puts you smack dab in the liar category in my book. All of the jet rallies that I've attended have been run with military precision----

At the risk of receiving a flame from you, I'll give you an example of a rule that has been broken by a few as the rule is GROSSLY outdated and needs to be revised!!! For example: The recommended thrust for a Composite ARF EuroSport is 120-160 Newtons. (Approx. 27-35 lbs) The EuroSport weighs about 22-23 lbs dry. So, under the .9:1 TWR rule I must do one of two things....Turn the thrust down or use a speed limiter. The SPIRIT of the rule was to curb speed. This works well for a clean airframe such as a BVM Bandit, but is terrible for a EuroSport. Why??? Because the EuroSport won't do 200 MPH if dropped from a cliff with EITHER engine due to the draggy airframe. This airframe NEEDS this thrust due to it's inherent drag, so, guys are leaving the engines at their full rated thrust. A P-120 (27 lb of thrust) powered EuroSport will do about 145-150 MPH tops.

So I ask you Jim--What's wrong with guys that have jets like the EuroSport flying with more than a .9:1 thrust to weight ratio???? These guys are not being irresponsible as there are zero safety concerns by doing this on this type of model. It's all about common sense and using your head. When the .9:1 ratio rule was implemented no one could foresee how the jets have evolved. Bigger, yes, but faster---NO!

Since you won't attend a jet rally I'll include this link to a video of a EuroSport in flight. As you can see, the trend in jet flying is to see how maneuverable their jet can be...NOT to go mach two with their hair on fire.

EuroSport Video: http://www.lov2flyrc.com/video/eurohs.wmv


Kevin

Your VP tried to table the proposal, rather unsuccessfully.

Regardless of how this is resolved, it is apparent that the waiver holders are going to be under a microscope where adhesion to ALL of the rules are concerned.

You probably have some right to be upset with Dave Brown. Having said that, it would behoove the waiver holders to keep to the facts. Claims such as those that he violated the by-laws are without merit and don't reflect well on those that make the claim. Unfortunately, those types of claims reflect on the entire community. The guys that start their e-mails to him with "You need to resign" are not doing the community any favor. He does have some influence on the EC, as you have seen. Even when you are at odds with someone, a little common courtesy goes a long way when the issue is resolved. (generic and not aimed at you personally)

JR

JR,

Amazing how I can agree with a lot of what you say. I don't feel like he acted outside of the bylaws but I do feel like he is acting from an uninformed perspective. Every segment of this hobby has some sort of rules and every segment bends or breaks those rules in one form or another. We are all asked to adhere to the safety code, yet by several peoples admission every aspect of this hobby breaks the safety code. Yet when a jet guy says he test flew a new airplane at an event the whole community is crucifed when I guess it would be better to cover it up and not talk about it like the rest of the modelling fraternity does......I am starting to see the light. Break the rules but keep your mouth shut about it....hmmmm.....I could do that..... No one notices if I take a brand new ugly stick to the local flyin and test fly it...so that makes it OK. No one says anything at the local club when the local guys do the tail touches on the runway even though that is now illegal.....so that must make it OK too..... I'm starting to get the hang of this!!! WOW what a revelation!

The rest of the EC must have thought he was talking in his sleep again.

.

David

If you will recall, I initally posted in the jet forum for the purpose of suggesting the opinions of the waiver holders be given to the EC and to Dave Brown. Turbines pilots, like pilots from virtually every other form of the hobby are not interested in the running of the AMA until it is their interest. For a month I have been saying that the EC will listen, yet, your fellow wiaver holders report that when they did contact their VP's recently, very, very few others had contacted those VP's. The VP's are reporting 1 or 2 contacts, each, from waiver holders, according to your compatriots. Few have made the effort call and talk to Dave Brown (scathing e-mails do not count for much).

A few of the VP's track the AMA forum on RCU. Most do not. Whatever it is that you guys wind up with will apparently be from the input of others.

The AMA will put on two seminars, at the AMA convention, on the turbine proposals. They will solict written input which will be submitted to the EC in Feb. David, if you were out here, I would bet you dinner that the two seminars will draw less than a dozen waiver holders.

If the turbine community does not care enough to make themselves heard, you have no complaints coming. Time is running out.

JR

JR,

I will be in Florida this weekend.....how about sending the AMA turbine seminar guys to Orlando....that way I can attend!

David,

This is my personal opinion and it reflects the thinking of no one else. If the truth be known, rules are broken in every area of the hobby. From sailplanes chasing thermals back over the pits to the scale guys doing maidens at sanctioned events.

The difference, in this case, is that a legitimate safety concern is being raised about fire and turbines... something the pilots have no control over.. it's just a fact. When it comes to the 200 mph speed limit and it's enforcement, the answer from the waiver holders seems to be "trust us". If viable speed limiters are available, they will probably be mandated. In my opinion, if they are not, the waiver holders have earned the trust . There is one caveat: the TCD's need to redouble the effort to only sign off those they truly believe have the ability to fly turbines in a compent manner. The buddy box portion of the new rules will make it easier to make that determination.

JR

PS. I still think I put you in a logical corner

Grasshopper,

There are many corners in this world, some not so well defended as others.


Agreed 100% I am a TCD and have signed off several people, I have also refused to sign off a few. I have one guy right now I am helping get to the point where he is ready for a waiver. Until he flies a DF plane that he already owns competently I will not sign him off. I refused to sign off a guy that refused to fly for me, his comment to me was he had already flown his jets and I should just sing him off based on that statement......not going to happen. I take this responsibility seriously, I also take the existing rules seriously, I won't tell you that I have broken any of them but I also won't say that I haven't.

Many of the current waivered pilots received their waiver under the old system. That was OK for many of us because at that time (6 years ago) most had come from ducted fans and if I do say so we were pretty well prepared for turbines. But I know some that got there waiver that probably should not have, before you had to have a turbine CD that at least knew what they were signing.

As David mentioned, we are now in this new phase that seems to have happened almost overnight. Most of us knew it would happen, just not so fast. I am speaking of the complete collapse of the ducted fan as a stepping stone. Most of us used to fly them cause they were the greatest thing going, now they are seen as an expensive, messy and needless sidetrack. People want to go straight to turbines.

So unfortunately, a lot of good things that would really increase safety, in a very real way (that those of us that actually fly hundreds of flights a year on turbines, and go to 10 jet rallies a year know).....are getting sidetracked by this silly speed limiter issue. Things like the buddy box, and re-certification...great ideas that will really add to safe operation....because in the end it is all about the pilot.

Right now at a jet rally I bet a random sample would show more than 1/2 of the pilots are still not setting their motors to shut the turbine down on loss of signal....we introduced a feature into the JetCat ECU so that this step COULD NOT be avoided...this is a huge leap in safety (probably reduces the chances of a fire by a factor of 10), and is part of the new rules...again almost no discussion of this, still much ado over a silly little speed sensor we have had for 4 years now.

Sad.

Thank you.

Now for the other visible symptom of the problem:

Let me see if I understand this attitude you are showing in this comment correctly.

The AMA should dance to YOUR tune? Unless my math is wrong, your group represents just under 1/2 of 1% of the entire membership. It seems sort of odd for the horse to be pushing the cart. I sure hope that was not your intent.

Remember that the Internet does not carry facial expressions or tones of voice very well. That means your written remarks MUST be as 'flat' as possible or folks assume you want a fight. Snide or sharp remarks light fuses and repeated questions about intelligence, ignorance, or other judgmental observations come across as declarations of war. I don't think that is what you really want, but I have been wrong before.


Kevin Greene, I will not flame you as you have repeatedly flamed me. I think you have missed the boat since your apparent thesis is that nobody can make any rules about anything they have not participated in.

Sorry, but your defense of current rules problems (T/W issues and the Eurosport) does NOT make those violations right. However, they do prove my thesis so I thank you for proving my opinion. I think getting the rule changed first would have made a lot more sense since we are talking the VISIBLE INTEGRITY of the community in the eyes of the AMA EC. Unless integrity is not something worthwhile to you.

Matt

The saddest part is that you are one of the very few that took the time to contact members of the EC, including Dave Brown. I was surprised you did not get flamed in the Jet Forum after contacting them. What does it take to make the turbine community realize that their input is important.. and not just on the subject of speed limiters..to Dave as well as the VP's?

JR

Who is wanting the AMA to dance to their tune? This seminar buisness comes out less than two weeks ago on the AMA website and we are supposed to drop everything and travel across the country and attend? It is typical of the method the AMA uses to change rules, or make policy. Last minute knee jerk reactions.