I've been following this and similar discussions for some time and there seems to be those who "don't like rules" and those that "feel they are necessary" with another group that falls somewhere in the "middle". That should come as no surprise since there is no way, when more than two people are involved, can you satisfy everyone. Here is my take. Having done CL modeling at the age of 10 or so in a very small midwest town there were no clubs, fields, and nobody new what AMA was. Safety was not a concern since if you got hit by a prop your folks would tell you "be more careful next time" and the thought of a lawsuit didn't cross their mind. Times change and people simply need to change with them. Since this discussion touches on many aspects of the hobby I will hit one that is not generally discussed and that is "Education" and "Awareness" which is a huge part of what AMA is all about. You cannot expect folks to know about AMA and their services unless you make them Aware. You cannot expect safety rules to be followed unless they are "Taught". Have you seen a LiPo fire example. Have you been hit by someones electric airplane that started unexpectedly at "full throttle." Young folks are fascinated with the current crop of conventional and quad copters that have flooded the market and then there are the small electric foam gliders and airplanes. Since their brains are still filled with mush, safety is not a concern to them. And that applies to many young adults and older folks as well. So how do these young folks get to a club field since they are not old enough to drive? They then migrate to parks unaware of the safety to property and others that must be taken into account. Case in point: Earlier this summer I (current club president) received a call from a friend in a relatively upscale area asking whether it was legal to fly in the parking lot of the water park of all places. Legal? No but not for the reasons one might surmise. This parking lot is on the glide path for the local airport. The parking lot was full of kids riding bikes and just meandering around. The pilots of these 40 size nitro models were adults who should know better but when questioned, had no idea where they were, what the AMA was, and had absolutely no concern for the property they were on or the houses directly across the street or the airplanes approaching the airport. So my point here is there is no cure for "stupid". These folks figured they could fly wherever they darned well pleased. As an instructor, I've worked with the very young, youngsters with ADHD, to duffers like myself. Learning to fly does not happen until one learns that "spinning, whirling things traveling at high speed can do serious damage".

I also reject the notion that AMA membership fees are the "main" reason for membership numbers. People that drive cars know or should know that buying it is just the beginning. You also need plates and insurance -- but you see, a very high percentage of those folks don't carry insurance either. Any sport/hobby whether it is golf or baseball has rules and other expenses, What makes people think that this doesn't apply to Areo-Modeling?

Next point: A Hobby Shop owner that sells model airplanes should really be researching what the AMA is, what it stands for, and what the terminology for the hobby is and if posting signs in the shop, use them properly and do everything in his/her power to actually help people understand that you can get hurt and you can hurt others and damage property with these aircraft. A shop I frequent places stickers on their product boxes informing purchasers to seek out a local club and to visit the AMA web site. Hobby Shops should also do their part at supporting the local clubs by at least showing their face at Club Events or better yet, be there as a vendor to help educate, answer questions, and provide a few items for raffles and prizes (or at reduced prices for the club). Product Manufactures could do a better job of educating purchasers as well.

Our club is very open to newcomers, we "own" our property and as such we can set our own rules which are basically along the AMA safety code. We participate in community parades, support the Civil Air Patrol at one of their full scale events, and we work with the local school system, Kiwanis Golden K, church groups, and are very willing to provide buddy box training following the AMA Intro Pilot program. Some clubs have established a maximum size that they can safely handle and they have the right to do so just like any other organization. Some are electric only. Some are no jets. It is their club and they can do whatever they please. People today seem "demand" that they be accepted no matter what the circumstances because they are from a generation that has never had the word NO or "these are the rules" directed to them.

I could speak about electric model safety having observed and been affected by electric model accidents but that is another topic. Safety and Education in this hobby is the most misunderstood aspect and I support the AMA in their efforts to maintain a semblance of order in this hobby. Without them this hobby would be severely restricted by the FAA and other Government Agencies who feel they are better at looking out for you than anyone else. If you think for one minute that the quad copter and heli incidents out east don't garner Government attention -- better think again. One last note on this. Many of you probably saw the video regarding the giant scale and full scale collision at an event in Brighton, CO a couple years ago. That incident happened because of poor planning, inappropriate scheduling of events and a simple lack of control. How do I know this? I have family that lived there at the time. It was nice that the AMA/FAA and other agencies were nice to each other and didn't point fingers (much) but there was enough blame to go around. Had they followed AMA rules for that event this incident would not have happened. I'm a "duffer" and have not had a problem following rules which got me to this ripe old age without any major heartburn. Following rules is like the Kyocera guy on TV says -- It's really not that difficult. My soapbox just collapsed so I'm done.

Peace & Fly Safely.

This is either absurdly comical or comically absurd.

Absolutely!

Like any organization, it takes CONSTANT campaigning by the membership to keep the total membership numbers up.

In the past this was easier to do as fathers, relatives and friends would drag out newcomers to flying fields and get them hooked to the hobby.

The constant 24/7 workdays have taken their toll combined with the influence of the Internet, so there is very little of that going on.

This is not to say that things are dire, nor that there is NO interest... rather that "we" as proponents of the hobby are NOT DOING A GOOD ENOUGH JOB.

To that end a few of us in our club decided to do something about it, so we formalized and advertized our free training program...

The result: In years when average membership has declined by 20-30% in area clubs, our has gone up by 40%, with over 65 new members this year alone. We have to turn people AWAY from our training program as it is always full.

The cumulative result over the last two years of doing this, is our membership is higher than at any point in our past 60 year past.

The interest is definitely there, as are the monies to support the hobby. The problem is that not enough people are doing what we did.... It only takes a few,

As with any organization, less than 5% of the membership actually contribute, and at least half of the rest only complain about what the 5% does or complains about the general state of affairs. Hmmm....

[TABLE="width: 39%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 237"]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 237"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Why do the numbers within the organisation have to be "kept up" ?


Judging by the proliferation of cheap equipment, there must be a huge market for model planes.

In ANY organization, there is a predictable attrition rate. In our club it was approaching 20-30% per year ( at one point mostly due to deaths! )

If you don't make an effort to keep the numbers up, then the cost per member increases to offset the reduced revenues... expenses ALWAYS increase.

The AMA is no different in this regard, nor is this hobby as a whole. It is important to keep the interest up, so the manufacturers keep giving us the NICE "goodies".

Re: huge market

Yes and these buyers often have no guidance ( or think they know better ), so the cr-ap gets sold.

Ah, the expenses.

So, are you saying that you need the new blood so as to keep your subs down to a reasonable level?




Nah, I still can't see it. It simply doesn't matter to me how many other people fly models. In fact, it seems that the more people get involved, the more the push for "rules and regulations".

I guess it's the same old crowd, who like to organise everyone else. They do seem to get everywhere, don't they?

A nasty little trait that plagues our species.



James

Have you ever purchased a plastic model car at a department store? ( K Mart or Wal Mart here, not sure of an equivalent in the UK)

They once accounted for nearly a whole isle in the toy department because 30 years ago boys loved to build model cars. Now department stores don't carry plastic model cars because demand died off, boys today spend their time on computer games and in front of the TV. Now if you want a plastic model car you have to go to a hobby shop. The number of new releases is dwindling and prices of the kits that once were $5.00 are now $25.00.

If you think a dwindling number of people in any given hobby is good, you've lost your mind. It's not just an AMA issue, it is a hobby wide issue.

Manufactures only design and release new products as long as there is market. Right now we are enjoying affordability brought on by technology (and to a degree cheap labor costs in Asia) keeping design and production costs down. Eventually, if fewer new people enter the hobby and us old farts die off, return on investment by manufacturers will decline and costs will go up with variety, quality and availability going down.

Don't think it can happen, look for hobbies that were common three, four and five decades ago, how many of them are still thriving today?

JB

JB,

DESPITE all the wailing about falling numbers ... RC gear is cheaper, better and more readily-accessible than ever.

How do you explain that, if RC is dying?



There are, I believe, more modellers than ever before. It's just that, if you are focused on the "club scene" you don't see them. The result is that you acquire a distorted view of the hobby; and you get to thinking that it's dying.

Many people have moved on from the need for clubs and the requirement to be tied to a flying field and the seemingly-unavoidable hobby-police.



I'm convinced that the only things which are dying, are the monolithic organisations which have developed over the past few decades. I'll raise a glass to their passing.




You ask which once-common hobbies are still thriving today. My answer, "The good ones."

People voted with their feet and the dross has fallen by the way-side. AFAIAC, that is a very good thing.

Nevermind

There is none so blind as those who refuse to see.

If anything experience has shown this to be the opposite.

The fewer people involved the easier it is to have rules passed by others not in the hobby that limit things.

We've seen this first hand... there is strength in numbers.

Expenses is also not the only motivation, keeping the pipeline full is a requisite for the long term health of the activity.

The "club scene" as you call it, is literally the only game in town around here vis-a-vis RC activities... if you're not in a club, unless you own private flying land, then RC activities are out of the question.

The upside to us is that we do get good support from our county people.

RC is not "dying" per-se, there is indeed PLENTY of interest, the problem is not the clubs, but rather those who complain about clubs being monolithic organisations...

You know the kind, those don't want to get involved, don't care about membership, call safety orientated people "hobby police", spend their time demeaning those who are pro-active, etc. etc... the "glass is always half empty" types... why methinks I see a few of them here. They love to stare into the abyss...

if they want to fly tell them to join the [ama] call obama to see whta he has to say>> ama or dont fly

i belong to a club used to have 150 menbers now around 25>>that is very nice most of the time there are only 5 people any day of the week at our field> when new people come to our field they must have ama or no fly simple> and some are a bunch of babys over it to bad ive been ama 45 yrs now

Funny you mention that... the new ( female) FAA - AMA liason joined or club recently per our and the AMA's invitation so she could experience our safety proceedures, training, and normal operation.

A recent ordinance proposal threatened to extend the White House exlusion/restricted zone out past 30 miles, shuttering our club and others in our area.

The FAA liason, promptly quashed that due in large part to her exposure to the hobby and the rules we follow.

The absolute greatest danger to our hobby is the unknowing do gooders trying to protect folks. They are EVERYWHERE and do their damage without remorse or thought but frequently without caring that their initial assessment was in error.

Now as for the thought that modeling "lifers" (haven't heard that term since Uncle Sam's Misguided Children!) waste time thinking up tricks to get folks to join the AMA, that suggests way too much thinking is going on in your house! If you hate the AMA, get over it and move on because it was here before you were and probably will be after.

AMA has a defined place in the world of model aviation, I am a proud member, but I also know that YOU benefit from AMA successes. The FAA liaison incident is one of those. The fact that you benefit from AMA activities is one of the many reasons "we" invite you to join. If you don't want to, you get to do without all the benefits and hopefully won't need any of them.

Good flying!

So Bob........... I guess you have an issue over there in the U.K. with the BMFA testing scheme?.......................... can you just imagine if the AMA ever instituted testing requirements like they have in the U.K. My oh my the that would never grow the membership.

This just in from the AMA, Two years ago, 2011 total membership was 139515. Last years total membership (2012) 143201. This years total 154598. Not giant strides; but, definite up-ticks.

Have you checked those numbers to see which classes of AMA age groups are bringing those nummbers UP?

Now that Jr. - Sr. age groups are free, many modelers are bringing their kids and young relatives into the AMA. This allows for kids that wish to try for the Jr-Sr scholarships to be able to do so under the requirement for 3 continuous years' membership prior to applying for a scholarship. There were some cases where students that had applied for renewals AFTER the Jan. 31 membership renewal date were denied scholarship eligibility. Seems that a certain EC member brought that to light. His kids made it OK. Like competition flying, one needs to know the rules if one wishes to be up top.

Well ... as a matter of fact, I do.

I spent a good while within the conventional club structure and saw how this "testing scheme" was administered. The best thing I can say is that it's 'all-a-bit-random' and 'it-depends-who-you-know'. We all know B-cert holders, instructors and examiners who are outrageously poor flyers.

The directors of fly-ins are best-advised to ignore the bit of paper and demand to see a couple of circuits, if they don't know the visiting pilots. To be fair, the smarter directors still do this.


Now, those administration problems could be addressed and the scheme could become a good predictor of pilot' behaviour. All this could happen, given the will, the time and the money.

But, my real problem with the achievement scheme is that it is becoming a de-facto licence. It's image is changing from, "I have participated in this voluntary achievement scheme, for the personal satisfaction of meeting an externally-set standard." to, "If you haven't got the bit of paper, you can't fly."

It's my belief that there are people who want to see that level of control within the hobby. As ever, the question is, "Cui Bono". IMO, the only real beneficiaries are the administrators, themselves. Call me paranoid, but I defy you to show me an organisation wherein similar abuses do not happen.



I was around before the BMFA was formed. Its fore-runner was called the SMAE ... society of model aeronautical engineers ... and it had about 4,000 members. So, what happened to boost the membership to 30,000 + ?

One thing happened ... the organisation became an insurance-salesman. The '80s and '90s saw the rapid expansion of the fear-of-litigation-society, and modellers got caught up in that.

Who would think that insurance + model planes equates to a dirty business? Well, back in the day, David Boddington tried to start up an alternative organisation to the BMFA. This new outfit was called the Model Pilots Association (IIRC). It was to offer much the same product as does the BMFA. That is, there would be insurance, fly-ins, achievement scheme, magazine and so on. You may know that Boddington was one of the most-respected modellers in this country.

It is alleged that the BMFA brought pressure/sweeteners to bear on the insurance brokers, such that they would not trade with this new MPA. After all, the BMFA had a much greater number of flyers already on its books. In any event, the MPA could not find a broker to offer competitive insurance to its members. As a result, it never really prospered.

Get this, the BMFA is, first and foremost, a business.










BTW, I've held a "B" for over 20 years; that's their more difficult club-level test ... so, let's not have any BS about "Oh, well, you would gripe, 'cos you can't meet their standards."

Whilst I'm in the mood for ranting, I'll address another criticism that I often see levelled.

People often write that "You have to belong to this organisation, because it protects you from legislators."



The story goes, "If some irresponsible modeller does a bad thing, then the legislators might punish all of us. So, we have to club together to protect ourselves from them."


Well, istm that the real problem is that you have legislators who seek to punish the people "who didn't do it".

What's worse is that they've got you all thinking like sheep ... you are accepting their authority to punish you for having done no harm. Where is the justice in that?

My reason for being in a club and the AMA is many faceted and all of the reasons make sense to me!

1). I'm a member of the AMA because I like the organization and what it does for me: I like the magazine. I like a national organization working for the better and common good of model aviation. I like that it provides me with extra liability insurance and that it is actively promoting my hobby to youth

2). I'm a member of a local club, because it provides the closest place for me to fly. It's a place for me to see my friends and make new ones. I like that the work and costs necessary to keep a flying field in shape, is spread over many members.

Am I required to be a member of the AMA; or, a local club? For me, not at all, as I have property on which an AMA club did operate at one time. So, I could mow down the tall grass and make a flying field for myself, if I chose. I have flown a few times all by myself. I simply found flying by myself was not be much fun.

In a nut shell, I have described how I like this hobby, which after all is a hobby, something I do for fun. So, you guys who want to operate on your own, have at it!

"So, you guys who want to operate on your own ..."


Nope, never even intimated that.

I am glad AMA headquarters is promoting the IMPBA.
This area of RC has really took a hit with lake closures noise
ordances. All we want to do is run fast semi loud boats and
have a blast. Just like the AMA ! I am
a member of both.

Two questions. First, exactly WHO are you going to look to for any help? Second, you don't happen to have another handle - say Natural Philosopher?

I really love how someone from GB insists on telling us how we should act in America with American organizations. Nothing snobbish or snooty there at all.