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"illegal" hovering

Old 10-25-2002, 02:54 AM
  #26  
Kevin Greene
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Default "illegal" hovering

Taildrager,

I understand what you mean by being enforced at the local level, but.....The rude 3D guys claim that since there aren't any rules at the national level concerning hovering over the runway then it's OK to do what they perceive as "normal" flying. Rude, yes, illegal---no. They perceive all of the complaints against them as *****ing and continue to fly as they please. Most of these are not the very large models but the little .40 size machines that get harder to see further out. Then, to make matters worse, when landing some of them, when coming out of a hover, will do this real fast circle in front of your face and land in any direction they please!!! (Including toward themselves and the pits!!!) The safety officer in this club won't say too much to these individuals because they are his friends.

I also agree that when no one else is flying, do as you please as long as it is safe. The helis are made to hover in the heli hover area---If you are going to hover your airplane like a heli then go to the heli area. Have a blast!!! Cut up!!! Hover your head off!!! Have fun!!! But, don't hover over an active runway!!!!

Kevin
Old 10-29-2002, 12:49 AM
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matchlessaero
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Default interesting......

I think we really have two issues going on here......


Issue one is rude flyers. We have all seen rude 3D pilots, but I challenge anyone on this forum to tell me they have never seen a rude pilot flying another discipline. Regardless of the style they fly (3d, electrics, gliders, pylon) there are still rude people. In all my years of flying, I have seen people flying every type of discipline act in a rude fashion to the others sharing the field. If I walk out in the middle of the runway with my handlaunch glider and stay out there 5 minutes, I am blocking the runway just like the 3D'ers are and the turbine pilot that sits forever at the end of the runway running up his engine and burning the grass. -----Deal with rude people at the local level, because that is where they are.

BTW, I have also seen very polite, cogniscent 3D pilots and have the pleasure to fly with several each weekend at my club.

Issue two is Safety. Safety rules have to prevent injury due to two factors, pilot capability and equipment failure (maybe others). As mentioned earlier in the post, even the best pilot cannot completely avoid equipment failure, and there is a learning curve for those learning these new maneuvers. The rules mentioned above do not seem to make 3d Hovering illegal, they just put a safety barrier between you and I and the "new hoverer" or the guy with the battery that is coming 'down' its last cycle while performing these maneuvers.

Matchlessaero
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Old 10-29-2002, 01:30 AM
  #28  
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Default Flunkyone

Old 10-29-2002, 07:29 AM
  #29  
EloyM
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Default "illegal" hovering

Lots of discussion about crashes - it should be mentioned that there were two of them at this year's TOC. Neither was any danger to the spectators, the point is that they happen to all of us, including the best. By coincidence, one of them was Mike Caglia, the other was Jason Shulman.
Old 10-29-2002, 03:49 PM
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Default "illegal" hovering

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Old 10-29-2002, 04:03 PM
  #31  
P-51B
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Default "illegal" hovering

Originally posted by Kevin Greene
What really gets me is the people that hover over the runway while others are flying the pattern. 20 feet/25 feet/30 feet---I don't care if it is 100 feet....If others are flying a normal pattern, hovering over the runway should be made illegal. I've called "Landing!" to no avail. It is just plain RUDE, not to mention unsafe, to do this over the runway when normal flight ops is going on. Rules have been imposed but the 3D flyers start out over the edge of the runway only to creep closer. Several models have crashed in the pits. A few have had to duck to keep from getting hit in the head. WHEN WILL THE AMA PUT AN END TO THIS BEHAVIOR!!!! WHEN SOMEONE GETS KILLED?!?!?!?! In one club in Memphis there is a great divide between the 3D'ers and the folks that just want to fly a normal pattern. I won't join until this issue is settled. I wish that the 3D'ers that fly in this manner would get a clue.....

Kevin
I would recommend flying a cheap sacrificial plane. Call "landing" (even better, "dead stick")and come on in,when the ensuing collision trashes a $5000.00 aircraft, maybe the rude flyers will get a clue.
Old 10-29-2002, 04:39 PM
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Gordon Mc
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Default "illegal" hovering

Originally posted by Taildrager
It is not up to the AMA IMO, it is up to the guys at the local level, as you can make all the rules in the world at a national level, but they must be enforced locally.
Coupla points in response to the above:

1) Since the AMA provides our insurance, it certainly is up to them to decide which kind of activity is or is-not covered by that insurance. From this comes a basic safety code that all AMA chartered clubs must adopt as their minimum.

2) It is much easier for clubs to deal with safety issues when they can point out that the AMA "backs them up" on the issue at hand. When the issue is an AMA rule, it has the full weight of the AMA behind it; when it's a rule that exists only at the club level, lots of folk figure it's unimportant and they can argue their way out of any confrontation by pointing out that if the issue were real, the AMA would have ruled on it already.

Gordon
Old 10-29-2002, 04:44 PM
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Gordon Mc
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Default "illegal" hovering

Originally posted by P-51B
I would recommend flying a cheap sacrificial plane. Call "landing" (even better, "dead stick")and come on in,when the ensuing collision trashes a $5000.00 aircraft, maybe the rude flyers will get a clue.
...and when your deliberate mid-air causes that big airplane to break out of its hover and hit the poor guy on the next flight-station, what then ? Walk over to the corpse and say "Sorry about that Charlie - but at least Fred may have now learned not to hover over the runway... you were just the price that I figured had to be paid for that lesson" ??

Gordon

P.S. I realise that your post may not have been "serious", but felt that before someone took your idea to heart, the above should be pointed out.
Old 10-29-2002, 04:45 PM
  #34  
P-51B
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Default "illegal" hovering

What Gordon said. :thumbup:
Old 10-29-2002, 05:09 PM
  #35  
J_R
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Default "illegal" hovering

2) It is much easier for clubs to deal with safety issues when they can point out that the AMA "backs them up" on the issue at hand. When the issue is an AMA rule, it has the full weight of the AMA behind it; when it's a rule that exists only at the club level, lots of folk figure it's unimportant and they can argue their way out of any confrontation by pointing out that if the issue were real, the AMA would have ruled on it already.
Another issue that clubs need to think carefully about relates to the Safety Code. Rule 3 states: Where established, I will abide by the safety rules for the flying site I use, and I will not willfuly and delibertly fly my models in a careless, reckless and/or dangerous manner.

A club should think carefully before making safety rules and eliminate any that are not necessary. One way to approach it is the way the AMA does on areas outside of the Safety Code. That is to make 'recommendations'. The AMA uses this on things like Site Specifications. Always keep in mind that the Safety Code can be retitled 'Exemptions to your AMA insurance'. Rule 3 of the AMA Safety Code incorporates the club safety rules into those exemptions.

Bottom line: if the rule is absolutely needed, make it, if not, don't.

JR
Old 10-29-2002, 11:24 PM
  #36  
Joe B.
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Default "illegal" hovering

The sad thing is that we are even talking about this. This is a SPORT for FUN. I know it's fun and seems very benign, but when you really think about it flying in such close proximity is dangerous. I'm not talking about a 16oz zagi flying 2 feet off the deck doing fly bys but even those with 1/4 and 1/3 scale cubs doing fly-bys down the center of the runway, hello, I'm 10 feet from your wingtips man! Even more dangerous as that as I'm flying my attention is not on the plane dangerously close to me but my plane out there. I can't watch both at the same time and therefor need some assurances that there will be some sort of warning before a plane gets too close. At our field we call "coming in", "going out", "deadstick", etc. to signal a plane is on or will be on the runway. Other than that you should be away from it at least enough to not inhibit normal traffic patterns. If the flyers enjoy watching you fly at least say "no one minds me taking it up for a few minutes, do they?" and I'm sure everyone - me including - will sit back and enjoy from a safe distance (under the shade of our awning!)
Old 10-30-2002, 02:54 AM
  #37  
Mluvara
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Default "illegal" hovering

About a year ago, our club (410 members) began dealing with the influx of 3D flying close-in. Obviously liability is a big thing nowadays and getting 410 people to all co-exist with the multitude of aircraft variations they fly is another story. Our solution was the rules you see below, which allows hovering close in under certain conditions. All complaints we received that initiated this were from people hovering less than 50 feet in front of another pilot who is flying. This brought up the fact that no one could hear comments on the flightline (people yelling landing, etc). All in all, it has worked out for the better and everyone has cooperated. We just asked for those to simply apply common sense and realize that their actions of flying close in do affect others.

"No hovering over the runway with fixed-wing aircraft while other pilots are present. All hovering to commence over the tall grass unless: (a) there is only one other pilot flying at a station and you have their consent (b) there are two other pilots aside from you practicing the same hovering maneuvers. In (a) and (b), hovering must be commenced from the runway centerline out and maximum separation of flying aircraft must occur. No individuals to be underneath a hovering aircraft."

Complete rules and a field diagram available at: http://www.sccmas.org/rules/rules.shtml

Michael
SCCMAS VP
www.sccmas.org
Old 10-30-2002, 10:16 PM
  #38  
TheEdge
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Default Well what do we have here

Check this out :

Scares the dickens out of

mehttp://www.cactusaviation.com/video/land.wvx
Old 11-05-2002, 07:15 AM
  #39  
classic-flyer-delete
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Default "illegal" hovering

You got to admit, its kinda funny
30 to 20 years ago it was just gliders that got in your way,
20 to 10 years ago many of you complained about these "darn 4 stroke engine flyers and those gassers"
10 to current years ago you wined about helicopters,

and now its 3-d plane pilots??
Can't we all just get along?
Try to Exercise common curtesy, take turns flying? treat each other with dignity and respect no matter what the other guy is flying?
Does it always have to be about "YOU"? It is amazing how far you can get in life if you would only make the effort to use a few words more often. like,
"Please", "thank you", and most importantly, "I am sorry".

Don't get me wrong, there are very rude people in ALL disciplines of flying, but SOME of you fixed wing guys think the rest of us "non fixed" flyers don't have a right to be there even if we are dues paying members of a club.
We all need to Learn to be more long-suffering, life is too short for this bickering,
Go fly, and just have fun, and if you really want to have a good day, next time you are at the field, go up to someone flying something diferent than what your flying and just say "hi, how's it going?" You just might make a new friend out of it Hey, it can't hurt to try. And it wont cost a thing.

My .02
Old 11-05-2002, 12:36 PM
  #40  
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Classic,
I agree with you 100%. I have been around and flying during every one of the eras you mentioned and you are quite right.

Dave
Old 11-05-2002, 12:52 PM
  #41  
P-51B
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Default "illegal" hovering

Originally posted by Gordon Mc


...and when your deliberate mid-air causes that big airplane to break out of its hover and hit the poor guy on the next flight-station, what then ? Walk over to the corpse and say "Sorry about that Charlie - but at least Fred may have now learned not to hover over the runway... you were just the price that I figured had to be paid for that lesson" ??

Gordon

P.S. I realise that your post may not have been "serious", but felt that before someone took your idea to heart, the above should be pointed out.
This is exactly the point I hoped someone would make. Now, let's suppose it is not a deliberate mid-air, but just one of the "very likely to occur in this situation" mid-airs! Or let's suppose that poor guy in the next flight station just looses control. I thank you for unknowingly help me to make my point!

I have no problem with the hovering, provided that it is done in a safe manner away from the flightline. As for rude flyers...I will always have a problem with them.
Old 11-05-2002, 02:02 PM
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wgeffon
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Default "illegal" hovering

Exactly!
Old 11-07-2002, 12:12 AM
  #43  
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Default "illegal" hovering

woah woah woah everybody i think that rumor has spread from people who want 3d manuevers gone. it was originally and brought up about hovering now 3d i havent heard anything at all about 3d
Old 11-07-2002, 01:39 PM
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Default illegal hovering

Exactly what is 3d flying? If we have a demo of 3d flying what type of flying and maneuvers are involved?
Old 11-08-2002, 04:23 PM
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terry990
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Default "illegal" hovering

Just a passing thought. As I am learning to hover and after watching others who have been doing it for some time with great success I can make this observation.

Hovering any aircraft is dangerous!

Should that stop us from learning to do it?

No!

Just use common sense and be aware of whats going on around you. Use a spotter.

Terry
Old 11-22-2002, 02:29 AM
  #46  
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Default "illegal" hovering

nuff of this bs... JUST FLY YOU BABIES! not to be rude though! i think this thread is used as a flame area. people are poed and they just flame out. I WISH RCU WAS PERFECT. but some people STILL have to give their snooty little remarks. im sorry i had to say that but JEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 11-22-2002, 03:03 AM
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Just as a wake up, day before yesterday we had a midweek fly. A new plane was on its second flight a developed a control problem. It was a super kaos with a ST 3000. It sheared off a 3" pine tree producing kindling, before reducing it's self to the same. Think what it would do to a person? Safty rules......
Old 11-22-2002, 03:27 AM
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Joe B.
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Default "illegal" hovering

Originally posted by wild3dfunfly
nuff of this bs... JUST FLY YOU BABIES! not to be rude though! i think this thread is used as a flame area. people are poed and they just flame out. I WISH RCU WAS PERFECT. but some people STILL have to give their snooty little remarks. im sorry i had to say that but JEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since you reopened this thread after 2 weeks of inactivity what does that make you?
Old 11-22-2002, 12:16 PM
  #49  
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Default Why dont every body just end it.

God people it is a hobby,,
Old 11-22-2002, 06:46 PM
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Default "illegal" hovering

It takes a top notch pilot to hover??? LMAO!!

Let it torque roll and then you'll be considered ..... elite.

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