My first knee jerk reaction to the park flier license idea was, "Cheaper rates!? Great, let's do it.!" But as I read more and more......

I agree as in EasyTiger's post that opening up a second tier will inevitably lead to MORE tiers. And as some people have hinted at, it gets more and more like car insurance. If this path continues it would stand to reason that it would be EXACTLY like car insurance. You call someone, give them the specs on your plane/s and they tell you how much a month you have to pay. Anytime you add to or subtract from your fleet, you have to call again and get new rate quotes unless you buy into a program where you can have under a specified number of planes of within specified specs (max speed, weight, noise level, wing span, etc.). And of course the longer you go without an incident the cheaper your rates will be. Basically personalized insurance... just like car insurance.

It all sounds great, until you figure out that it means you have to keep track of every single member and every single plane, and every single component in every single plane. You have to have a set risk factor for every combination of components. You have to assess the area in which they will be flying for public risk etc etc etc.. And you have to have people on call to input changes to that database and figure rate quotes. Huge technology and administrative costs would be involved.

The more I think about it, maybe $58 for everyone isn't such a bad idea.

Just have the insurance be an Upto Type kinda thing- If you are insured on 40% 3d Planes then you automaticly are covered for the 049 parkie you just bought. Just sign up for the highest rate you will fly, and everything below is covered in an Upto $XXXk policy.

Would be nice to see No Tickets or Accidents past 10years lower the rate.
Would be nice to see comercials for low monthly payments for competing insurers.
Will the AMA websight get a pattern plane doing the Robot Dance like that lizard insurance?

But is it that simple? My 40% 3d flies at 35mph and is contolled by a pcm radio with dual receivers, dual servos, dual receiver batteries, top of the line control linkages. The most reliable engine/motor on the market.. My 1/2a pylon racer flies at 150 and i'm useing electronics I bought for $3 from china... which is the more dangerous?

(I don't own either of thoose mentioned and the numbers are pulled out of my ...... but you get the idea.)

How about that 15 oz profile foamie that flys less then 10 mph at top speed and spends most of its time hovering etc???

Exactly. There are just too many differnt planes and different setups to be classed into just one or two categories. And the more categories you have the more cost is involved in managing them. Then the cost goes up for everyone.

Just exactally what are the main costs of managaing the catagories. Most of the managing will fall on the clubs themselves as they are the ones that have to check people to makesure they can fly the models that they are liscenced (or what ever) for.

It's not the clubs who write out the insurance policy. As far as where the costs are,

"it means you have to keep track of every single member and every single plane, and every single component in every single plane. You have to have a set risk factor for every combination of components. You have to assess the area in which they will be flying for public risk etc etc etc.. And you have to have people on call to input changes to that database and figure rate quotes. Huge technology and administrative costs would be involved."

You bring up annother cost though. The club has to somehow make sure you do have the proper insurance for the plane you are flying. So instead of the AMA issuing you gerneric AMA member card, it will have to list exactly what you are insured to fly.

Coolbean, your signature says it all. Most of those involved in these discussions have no club experience other than pay the dues and fly when convenient. They have no concept of finding a field, negotiating for the field, preparing the field and maintaining the field, keeping the club up-to-date with the local officials and their requirements, AMA, membership roster, current club rules, etc., etc. In addition they think of AMA as an insurance only company which certainly places them in Scarecrow's group.

Now all the club's administrative things can be accomplished, HOWEVER WHY SHOULD A TOY-AIRPLANE CLUB MEMBER HAVE TO SPEND HIS LIMITED TIME WITH SUCH LABOR WHEN IT IS TOTALLY UNNEEDED? The time takes from his recreational time just because some computer geek thinks making rules and setting up different folders with different files is everyone's idea of fun.

AMA is simply an organization that provides insurance from a real insurance company so as to assist modelers in their ability to find and keep flying facilities plus provides a measure of protection for those doing damage and for those being damaged.

Now as the administration staff is enlarged to keep up with all the possibilities that a non-productive bureaucrat behind a key-board can dream up, then someone is going to pay for that. Just who will it be? Look in the mirror!

Personally I don't care if AMA membership goes up a few $$. For myself it makes no difference. For the club it makes a _ell of a difference, and then I get concerned. A tiered membership, which I at one time believed in, but later realized my foolishness and stupidity, is just the beginning of destroying the club functions. Without the Charter Clubs, AMA will go down the tubes as there will be no one requiring AMA membership, and with no clubs making such requirement, then no AMA.

Park fliers are, as individuals, just one of the big fads, although a fair amount will stay for many years. Like all of us before them, enough will find their way and the torch will continue to remain. The AMA has NEVER amounted to more than 2-3% of the people within the USA that build and fly model airplanes.

If only AMA Leaders could just grab those ears and pull, and return to serving the membership, things like big help for flying sites, education of all governmental agencies and news media about model aviation, reducing the $$$ losses of the magazine staff, down to simple things such as renewing the issue of membership manuals and competition rulebooks, providing the clubs with the simple tools clubs need to administrate a club, and assuring literate productive staff administration within AMA, then chasing park-flier rainbows would take care of itself. Oh well, I can dream too.

I just love when an ol timer thinks things are going to go back to the way it used to be, "back in my day".

Parkflyers going away? HA! Electrics going away? HA! Yeah people want to go back to paying $15 a gallon of fuel when the quality of the batteries goes up and the price goes down.

Parkflyers are going NOWHERE Hoss. Right now it's the dominant market and it will only grow. Like I said, I'll personally make sure of that little known fact.

Horrace,
Your remind me so much of my grandpa I just wanna give you a big hug.
I agree with 99% of what you said and I really do appreciate your input on this.
But I don't see park flyers as a fad.
The real problem is that the park flyers are going to get the general public to look at all flyers as a nussance. The park flyers have to be organized or communities are giong to start banning all rc aircraft. But tiers are not the answer.

STL your response is combative and of little value to the discussion.

This I agree with.

I have said before, the real benefit of the AMA (and its insurance) is that it enables club fields to exist. If all public parks banish models (as they have in my neck of the woods) then the AMA now starts to have a real, tangible benefit to park flyers. I think this will happen over time, but not sure if it will happen fast enough to save the AMA membership decline.

Perhaps STL, you should maybe get one of those grade school kids to give you a refresher in basic Reading Comprehension so that you don't stay so confused.

In no way did I say that park fliers will go away. I said they are a fad. That is because so many are being imported and sold, but that will pass.
I have many times said in these forums that electrics and turbines are the future, yet I will not live to see the total elimination of gas burners or glow plugs. I will always have them.

Model aviation has always enjoyed fads. First there was rubber powered, then the gas ignition came. There was a change in model aviation, but all could not afford the gassers so rubber remained and it is still here.

Then came RC and CL. Not all could afford or understand Dr. Good's new RC thing, so it was slow developing, however CL caught on big time. Every school yard became a flying field. Sound familiar???
However Rubber and Free Flight endured and CL became KING. RC kept moving along.
In about 1947 the glow plug arrived thanks to one Mr. Ray Arden. Every engine manufacturer and some new mfgers. entered the field with the 1/2A engines. The FAD erupted and all were flying 1/2A CL in their back yards or streets. Hundreds of thousands were sold along with 1/2 A kits being 100 times predominant over others. AMA was about 10,000 strong.
Big CL models, rubber, FF, and even RC endured.
About mid 1950 RC came on strong and increased rapidly throughout the years.
Rubber, FF, CL, 1/2A all remain and continue. RC is here to stay.
Back in the 70s electrics started showing up. In RC Big Bird gassers started coming on. In the '80s if you were not a Big Bird person you were nothing. Every thing else survived and continues on.

So STL, all things come and go yet some will always linger on. Electrics will at sometime in the near future be the common model airplane powerplant just as glow plug engines are and have been for SIXTY years.

Now there is one big difference between electric as the common power plant and the individual known as a park flier!

STL look at that quote above. YOU YOURSELF just stated that Parkfliers are going nowhere. [8D] Perhaps your kids could also explain to you a bit in how meanings change with improper punctuation. I know from the conversations what you mean, but you could be quoted as saying exactly opposite to what you mean![>:]

In another thread you state that you are no longer in the commercial model business, just in your kid school thing. How will you make sure that electric remains the dominent market if you are not in that business? We both know it will do so in time, but since YOU claim to ensure such, are you lying in the other thread? If so are you lying about the other question you said NO to? You should be in politics, man, you can do 180s better and a lot faster than most of those liberal congressmen.

I think the AMA should just do the Magizine ect and mostly get out of the Insrance business. They for the most part get out of paying, because your home owners ends up paying. The AMA could have a special coverage for competition only... paid at the event itself. I see no reason the average RC flyer needs AMA. In fact it gives clubs a chance to say...YOU GOT TO HAVE AMA. Well you don,t. Make sure each flyer has a home policy add on statement. Usually home owners insurance will not cover if you compete. So...again...competitors.. pay as they go plan though the AMA, the ones that set rules for competive events. Thanks Capt,n

lol... i love electrics but ill pay 15 bucks a gallon for the smell and the sound... i only pray my glow/gas engines dont fade away due to these electrics[]

You don't want the club to be responsible for policing 2 types of models, but you want them to risk losing their club because someone didn't pay their homeowners last month? The AMA is a backup for a backup, redundancy and it's good all calendar year. Remember no matter what, someone is going to be held responsible for the land that is being used for RC flying. Pretty stupid to risk time, materials and money on a field and try to depend on the members to make sure they pay their premium each month. Also you're going to lose a huge population due to the fact not everyone has homeowners or rentors.

Are you for real? What happens to the minors in this deal? Are they left out in the cold? They don't have either renters or homeowners, and maybe living with grandparents with no real parents around. Your post is without any form of merit.

If the AMA furnished an umbrella policy where the member had NO other insurance, what do you think the premium would be? I'm betting on at least $600.00 for 2 million coverage. I pay almost such rate for umbrella coverage and I have 2 $300,000 HO liability policies. You be a bit uninformed, my good man!!!

>>>>>>>>>
AMA '05 insurance summary:

//snip//
• Since 1999, AMA and its insurance company have paid out more than $4,000,000, mostly to settle injury claims. In addition, recent serious injury cases that are in litigation have “reserves� (estimates) for future payments in excess of $2,000,000.
So as you can see, the few serious and sometimes tragic injury accidents are the major source of claim payouts. Of the approximately 400 claims reported over the last several years, only 10 or 12 involve really serious injuries.

• Settlements of these serious cases many times exceed $500,000 each and in some cases that is after the homeowner’s insurer pays its policy limit.

• The most common cause of injury is “lost control of aircraft,� usually without any confirmed cause (vague allegations of frequency interference are common).

//snip//
<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<

If you wish to have some financial protection for your hobby-sport you better join AMA unless you are one of the very privileged. If you injure me you will need it. [>:]

I think most RC airplane owners have a home or rent and can purchase insurance somehow. Also a lot of policies are NOT for a month, but 6 months and even a year in many cases. The big boys with all the expensive stuff that travel to all the RC events can afford to pay a fee when they compete or fly exotic aircraft...including helies. The average RC person should NOT have to pay for or part of rich RC peoples insurance PERIOD! Capt,n

I have been with the AMA and will have too if I fly at AMA scantioned fields. I have many privite places to fly where I do not need it. I am just saying the AMA needs a new system of dues which should be determined by a more fair way of charging members. Why should a kid with a electric plane or a person who flies very little pay the same as the rich do for insurance that fly killer helies with big chopper blades or a guy with a Big high powered plane. You know the planes that cost $5000. dollars and up? The most fair way ...would be to pay by the value of your equipment and how much you fly and last if you compete. Just like AUTO insurance. The extra cost the AMA encounters by doing so can be tacked onto the rich RC boys that basically pay the same as us nobody,s Capt,n

What a plan! Let's make the rich jet flyers pay for the rest of us......
Maybe the AMA could pass out fuel stamps for us poor folks!

Because the definition of, "Fair", is that it applies equally to all. Fair means that is something costs a dollar, then it costs everyone a dollar. When pricing is set at the person's ability to pay, It's called Socialism. When someone is forced to pay for someone who cannot pay, then that is called Communism. Are you a child, or an adult? If you are an adult, why do you want me to have to pay your way? That is what you are really asking me to do is it not? "Snivel, whine, I can't afford to fly model planes, so somebody needs to make the mean old men who have worked and saved to be able to enjoy things pay for me to get to play too". BULL PUKKY!

I will not be forced to pay for your entry into this hobby. There is no nickle beer, and there is no free lunch. Pony up. If you wants to play, you gots to pay. Simple enough. Go big, or go home. I'm tired of the missing and poaning about who can and who cannot afford to pay the AMA fees and club dues. I'll be honest. I wish that the AMA fees were $1000.00 per year, and the average club dues were $2000.00. Then we would not be bothered by the junk flyers. Am I elitest? Maybe, but I do know that when you put a low performance model airplane in close proximity with a high performance model airplane, there will be problems. Mid-air collisions will be a normal occurrance. (hey, maybe this will work out after all) You do something stupid, and we mid-air, you have to pay for my airplane. This is promising. You are out of the model airplane business, because you could only afford to buy just one, plus you have to pay for the damage to my plane, caused by your low performance flying, and I get a new plane. Works for me. Oh...You can't afford to repair or replace my plane? Why are you here?

If you can afford a set of golf clubs, does that mean that you should be able to play golf for free? or at a reduced rate, simply because you do not have the income to support the game?

Who do you think you are to dictate the cost of belonging to the AMA or a club based upon someone's income? How dare you do this? This is a hobby. This is not a life. Hobbies are by definition, expensive. This is an expensive hobby. There is great potential for loss in this hobby. If you cannot afford to lose your investment, or if you cannot afford to belong to the group that set's the policies, or makes the rules (AMA and local Clubs) then you do not belong in this hobby.

If you paid $150.00 for your park flyer, why do you think that you should not have to pay the full AMA price, or belong to a club to fly at the field? You are deriving as much fun from the hobby as is the person who has thousands of dollars tied up (no I won't insult you by using the word investment) in this hobby. Why, then, should you pay less? Get real, this is not going to happen. ever! I will not pay your way. You should be embarassed to want me to.

These kinds of posts are exactly the reason that we should not be talking about this crap because it hasn't happened and I would put good money on the fact it's not going to happen. How in the heck do you get something passed at a raised level that you can't get passed at a 50% discounted level? There is NO WAY!

The AMA is going after a parkflyer audience because they are WITHOUT an AMA card at all or typically the way into the AMA. Why would the AMA single out a crowd which are practically forced to be members? How many GS and jet pilots do you know that are not AMA members? Nobdody comes into this hobby and jumps right to jets or GS planes either so there is no reason to mess with that crowd and to make them mad.

There is also no reason to raise rates for jets and GS' because if they are doing it to save or make money on insurance, I can bet dollars to donuts that GS and jet pilots don't setback the insurance cost rates one bit. Is the AMA going to create a better magazine for jet pilots/GS pilots? You can't raise prices without incentives and you don't lower prices without taking them away.

I mean instead of coming up with conspriacy theories try to give one good reason WHY the AMA would do such a thing, other then they are just bunch of morons. Because from a marketing standpoint it makes no sense to charge GS/jet pilots more then glow. They are charging less for e pilots to suck them in!

You guys need to realize that this is a MARKETING push and nothing more. The AMA does not need to market to an audience in which they already have the tightest grip. Trying to think marketing and not revenue, because that is what the AMA is thinking first. Revenue is a the reward of a good marketing campaign.

Sales is just a numbers game. If there are 2M PF's out there, you're going to capture X of that crowd with a new 50% discounted PF program. Of X you are going to convert Y to full AMA members within a Z time period. What is X,Y,Z? Don't know yet, but we do know what 2M is and that WILL equate into some kind of number because that's how sales works. This is why you get telemarketers calling you all the time and most of the time they get shot down, but to them, it's just a numbers game. If you call 100 you'll get 2. Even if the AMA gets a crappy telemarketing rate of 2%, that's still 40,000 members.

Not to worry STL, people will sence the negativity of the AMA and some of its old duffers and the membership will start to decline as the word of mouth goes around. The AMA will be reduced to a small handfull of members which will end up paying 3 or 4 times what they are paying now while another more excepting orgaization will start up and take hold. The new organization will most likely be comprised of mainly E flight people with a slightly tierd membership depending on model weight and type of model.

Since the EPA is now starting to look at the smaller engines now for ways to reduce any more emissions,smoke or possible polution then the large wet flyers are going to be in target for a suprise. So mark my words, if wet powered model creates any type of polution what so ever then it is going to be either outlawed or it is going to need some kind of power reconfiguration to make it more enviromentally friendly. So unless your wet powered models are 100% efficiant and produce 0 emissions and 0 polution then you guys are going to be doing the whimpering.


As comunities grow and expand then the larger flying fields for the wet powered guys will start to thin out also or become much smaller. Soon these fields will only beable to handle the sub 45 inch wing span models. This will leave the parkflyer groups in charge of the fields and no place for the big boys to go.

Face it guys, parkflyers and E power are not a fad and they are here to stay and will overtake in the long run. It is a group that has been growing by the thousands every year. By the AMAs estimate this group is 2 mill strong and I expect that number to reach 3 mill before too long.

Oh if a newbie parkflyer gets into the hobby only to get otu after a very short while then it was because he/she failed on their first attempts at flying or they had a bad experience from the locals. If they had been welcomed with open arms and not had their new model flamed becuase it was a V tailed 3 channel trainer and they were trained not to fail then it might have been different. Most people that are successful at this hobby and are welcomed with open arms will stay in the hobby for more then a year or two.

Hey....you can rattle on about telemarketers and XY and Z. The bottom line is we need a more fair way of getting AMA insurance. Its simple...if you got expensive RC eqipment and do compete....you should have to pay more than the part time low dollar RC flyers that just fly for fun once in a while. Also the guy that does not want cheap planes at his field....I hope you crash your big buck show off stuff. Just do not crash it when anyone is around. On second thught though...you probably have the $$$$ to get another. While the rest of us not so rich ones must help you pay for the same for AMA coverage.

John,

See post #20

Bill, AMA 4720

And I'm supposed to be sympathetic toward you? Get real Bub.

Bill, AMA 4720