"protect the rights of the members, include the absent members at meetings"


Good for you, Now you must educate all the members of your club in roberts
rules of order and there "intended use",
so that the Vote of the true majority..... not "mob rule" .....prevails at your club and its meetings.

The folks that are afraid of having a vote on an issue, are usually the ones that would lose if a vote was taken.
Our forefathers fought hard to obtain the right to vote, don't ever let anyone stop you from voting.

WOW!

There is alot of problems out there. If you find a club that need Bob's book, well run away. Start your own club where Bob's book is not needed. Meetings are not needed.

Our club has no need for Bob or his book. We are a club of 50 - 60 members. We do have 1 meeting per year. We re elect the poor guys and eat free pizza. Issues? nope we have no issues except for rain on fly days.

I think you all forgot why you have a RC club. You guys fly RC. You guys love flying. So think back to those days and just go fly.

Crash99

Ain't it the truth!

Crash99,

That is just plane wrong! Your club does not have nearly enough meetings...Our club does it right. Mexican food and beer for our two meetings a year.

Bob around here could esily be mistaken for BYOB...[X(]

Well, for small clubs maybe one m,eeting or two a year works. For us, a club of over 180members who run 7 major events a year, runs youth intro programs, has asset management to deal with, and is a major contributor to it's community, two meetings a year would not do at all. Robert's rules are definately needed in a club of any size of notability because it is the way a club,organization or municipality should be and is run. KNowledge of Robert's rules extends far beyond R/C clubs, far, far, beyond. Furhter, I do know why I joined an R/C club. I not only enjoy our open space that we manage, but I promote the hobby and promogate the pilots through youth programs and District sponsored events. remeber why I joined? Sure do, and others like me are thankful we did.

And the bottom feeders in this hobby will probably attend those events and then complain about how they are run. No need for meetings if you let others do the work.

OK, sounds good.... But do you have Mexican food and beer at your meetings? Makes me wonder... at just what size a club can't have Mexican food and beer and needs more than two meetings a year. 20, 30, 60...

SSRCCPREZ Believe it or not I think RRoO is a much needed tool in many instances also maintain order. Of course, many flying clubs like a more casual structure as well and that is just fine too but there should always be some prescribed order outlined within club bylaws that can be invoked if the need arises.

No Mexican food, due to a methane accident a few years ago!!!! We do not disallow or allow alcoholic beverages at our meetings, we leave it up to the members to use their own discretion. As for food, we typically have no food, and noone seems to mind. I t has been this way for a long time.
Like I said at a certain size an ordered written structure becomes neccessary, and RroO is very widely used. I bet I would LOVE your meetings as you may enjoy ours. Different does not mean better or worse, just means different. I would rather have Robert's rules and not need them than not have them and suffer the consequences. I have 36 ppl in a meeting who believe their opinion is the most well thought out and intelligent........thank you Robert's rules

When things are going well in a club, use or enforcement of roberts rules are seldom needed,
its when things get devisive that they are needed, and need to be enforced not only on the members
but the people that the members have elected to "SERVE" them.

The job of serving the members is voluntary ,
if you don't like what their voting for or against you can ........resign.
Roberts rules keeps the true majority not those that 'claim" they are the majority in control.
Also if you not voting via secret ballot, (like we do in this country to rid ourselves of any intimidation factor)
your voting on issues may be seriously "skewed", be aware of that.

under roberts rules:
If Club business/and or voting is conducted.........without a quorum present........ is it legal?

O.K. here is my take on that....
First and foremost there needs to be a definition of a quorum. Our by-laws specifically spell out what a quorum is and how or when a meetingh can be held. We have to inform the membership of a meeting 5 days prior in order for the meeting to take place. A quorum in our club By-Laws is defined as 12 members minus the executive board. So under both these circumstances if these two items are not filled no vote is legal. EXCEPT an executive order, which can only be done in lieu of a meeting or in an abscence of a quorum only to be held long enough for the membership to vote it up or down.. Example, paying the port-o-poty. I can issue an executiove order to have it paid if I am missing a quorum, but at the next meeting the membership can determine they do not want to pay it or that they do. I can only issue executive orders in times of emergency, no quorum, or if it is deemed by a vote of the executive board to be in the clubs best interest pending a membership vote.
Here is where it gets tricky. Robert's rules ONLY fill in where the By laws end. In other words Robert rules do NOT supercede By-LAws, but makes up for their abscence. If your By Laws do not specificallyh define a quorum that Robert's rules can in this case.

**Well, for small clubs maybe one meeting or two a year works.

We almost agree

**a club of over 180members who run 7 major events a year

Like the Small clubs do not have several events a year? When we run out of parking we just get the mower out and make more room.

**Youth intro programs

Yep!, Every weekend we are ready to take up youths up. We also perform several school fly demos. But we are just a small unworthly club. [:-]

**asset management to deal with,

You got me there, But our dues are only $25.00 a year. Hold it, we have 2 assets, A mower and a building ........... sort of.

**a major contributor to it's community

Every club should be. We never say no to any request.

**Robert's rules are definately needed.

Crap, We have to disagree. When running the club comes to needing a book, There is a problem. You should not need to run a club. When your hobby becomes running a club, thats is just sad.

BTW you have a club of 180. How many of the 180 flys 70 days a year or more. Just to let you know there are around 10 from our club that flys over 200 days a year.

Crash99
Member of a Small Club, A nobody

I just thought of this. Out of the 180 how many do not fly? Also out of the group how many speak at your meetings?

Crash99

Well we are in New England so 200 days of flying is rare at best. ON average we get 30- 40 members at each meeting, with a natural spike at the annual meeting.
As for getting youths in the air, we have a formal program with the schools that pairs each youth up with a mentor to build over the winter and fly in the spring and solo by summer. This is an involved process. our dues are much more than yours, because we have higher costs associated with our club, these assets need to be managed and our events require monthly meetings to prepare. A smaller club is not UNWORTHY as your snotty remark intimates, but Robert's rules are needed in a formal setting, to aid in the meeting and democratic process as is its intent. Ignorance of such a process is fine right up until that day you have an issue. If you have not yet had an issue GOD BLESS YOU!!!! I cannot say the same for us and there fore we are lucky that the intellect of the general membership is as such to see that Robert's rules is warranted and is a good thing.
Further, I would say that running a club is the only way to get from a small group of like minded individuals enjoying a hobby to a large club with a multifacited group that works all year on new projects and public relations and donation reclamation and asset management. Remember we are in the Northeast. It is very different up here. Big business donates big money to Non-profits and typically owns the only open spaces around that are constantly threatened by Urban sprawl. The average cost of an acre of land out here is $300,00.00. If you owed land you gonna rent it to us for $1,200.00 a year or sell to a developer and make a few million? Look Roberts rules is an intelligent BOOk to have instituted in case you need it....If you don't thats great, you are an exception. We need it we have it and we are glad we do. I can also say that in the coming months in our club we are REAL>LY going to need it as we move forward on asset procurement and allocation.
I think I said earlier you may like opurt meetings and we may like yours, different does not mean right or wrong it just means different and there is nothing wrong with that.

Hum ........................ Well when you get tired with all that management, Leave the Northeast crowd and move here in Missouri. I can only tell you a few things

1. No worries at the field except rain and/or a snow storm. OK we have been known to fly in both.
2. Sunday and Wednesday is the normal fly days but you might find a few of us the other nights flying til dark.
3. We don't assign work. We know if there is something that needs to be done we will just get er done.
4. 1 meeting a year to eat pizza and re elect the same folks.
5. When a school calls us we take off from work and make the children happy.
6. YOU FLY FOR THE FUN OF IT.
7. If you have a question please look at line #6.
8. We welcome all airplanes and flyers.
9. We are a ProBro friendly field.
10 If the wind is blowing below 35MPH you should find some flying.

So you can see our small club as you put it works without Bob and his book. I am sorry you need it. I have seen some small clubs that have monthy meetings have the same issue. So I would simply say stop. If you need to talk about an issue you should get er done at the field. Then go fly.

But I really want to know, out of the 180 how many do not fly? How many flyers show up on a weekend? How many airplanes are in the air at one time?

Thanks
Crash99

Any orgainzation has to operate under a set of generally understood and accepted rules, else chaos will happen. This may or may not be Robert's Rules. When I ran an executive committee, for example, we did not vote on issues. but rather discussed them until we could reach a consensus (the most opposed member says, "well, I can live with that."). If a consensus could not be reached, either I, as chair, made the decision, or we deferred decision making to a later date.

Thanks for clearing up the quorum question......SSRCCPREZ

So the constitution and bylaws of a club can" not legally be changed" if there was no true quorum present to change them.

Under CA law, if a set quorum is not listed in your bylaws (like it is in SSRCCPREZ
club) it automaticly defaults to 33%.

So if you have a 170 members, there better have been 55 in attendance at the time of the vote,
other wise the action is illegal, null and void, worthless, not worth the paper its written on.

Denying a quorum apparently is another tool that can be used to deny a legal vote on an issue.

Guys,

After reading this thread, one no longer have to ask, Why is the AMA membership going down. When you have to bring up the word law, that is just sad.

Well while you guys talk about this the rest of us are flying and having a great time. Good luck with all that rule making and stuff.

Crash99

Crash, might I say that it is your sarcastic tone and monotone thought that forces the rest of us to have to use Robert's rules. Also, while you are out flying, we are running the clubs that you enjoy, and flying!!! Your dismissiveness tends to reveal mountains about your character even after I have stated that just because we run things different does not mean it is right or wrong, just different. I also said I bet you and I would enjoy each others meetings and clubs for their similarities and differences. Remember it is these rules that protect EVERYONE in the club, even those who otherwise do not deserve to be protected. These rules of order prevent chaos and are akin to the rules of public roadways. It keeps everyone safe, ont he same page and gives equal rights for all who choose to use said public roadways.

How about this angle Crash...,

The constitution of the United States and the bill of rights were written in such a way as to:

PROTECT WE CITIZENS .............FROM OUR OWN GOVERNMENT. .............Why?

Because history has shown us over and over again that once "given authority" people will...... ABUSE IT.

Roberts rules of order provides the same procedural protections to members in order to conduct business,
voice their view points and call for a vote...... not far removed from the document that governs are country.
(actually roberts rules is actually more democratic and efficent in getting things done than congress/senate)

As a Club member my viewpoint has only One vote,(why that scares some people I don't know)
but put together with other votes from other members,
my viewpoint can prevail over the viewpoints of other members.(which happens often)
OR.... I might find myself being forced to rethink my
viewpoint as My way of thinking maybe wrong and or incorrect if after a vote is taken....
I find myself in the minority.(which rarely happens)

Roberts rules provides a basic structure that so that the members can direct
the business of thier own club, through thier vote.
When that vote is taken away from the members .....you end up with a dictatorship
and a club full of mushrooms as they are no longer are allowed in the decision
making process of thier own organization.

Roberts rules ........ helps conduct and protect that decision making process.

Sir:

I would suggest that you revisit Roberts Rules in the area of "appeal" (decision of the Chair). It is a motion that has the same requirements of recognition by the Chair as does "point of order" (mandatory recognition) and if it is seconded then a vote must be taken to determine if the decision of the Chair is to be sustained or vacated. The Chair must recognize the motion, recognize the second, conduct discussion, record the vote of the membership, and is bound by the results. It prevents an over zealous Chair from becoming King and insures the Chair is subject to the will of the majority of the members.

Roberts rules certainly assist the Chair in conducting an organized meeting - but in the hands of the members, Roberts Rules assures democracy. Having a resonable working knowledge of the rules prevents a minority from over ruling the majority - Roberts rules can be administered from the floor as well as from the Chair.

Roberts rules defines a parliamentary process that empowers everyone, officers and members, and it levels the playing field. It follows the concept of "rule of law" which is infinitely better than no law. When there are problems just follow the rules. What Roberts rules is not is a tool that enables those in charge to dominate, it is exactly the opposite.

Howard

I used to think that any club that needs to use Roberts rules is a dysfunctional club at heart. Not any more, after seeing how this group usually gets along......I think Roberts Rules has its' place.

You hit the nail on the head here....


Ronnie

Rotary club, Lions Club,Jaycees, KofC, VFW(some), Town government selectman,finn comm etc., house of reps senate, all use Robert's rules to one degree or another...none of these are dysfunctional as a workable group.

Sorry Guys,

The weather here in Missouri has been great for some time now. Looks like it was Crash bashing while I was enjoying the R/C flying Hobby. Did I forgot to tell you I am an officer of our club? I take care of all 3 of our major events. One is a ProBro event. That one should not count due to it runs it self with no issues. SSRCCPREZ is wrong again.

So how is your hobby going (Running the club) or one might say trying to master being a control freak. Now that was a sarcastic tone. What ever floats your boat. Tonight it looks like another great night for the hobby of flying R/C. The field is mowed, the bills are all paid, Everyone in our club of 50+ are happy, What am I forgetting? O YA, I have to finish out the reast of today here at work.

Look, God has blessed us with 2 great fields here in Lake of the Ozarks. There are many events in Missouri to go to. If you need a book to tell you how to get er done, Well I am sorry for you. I hope you can get rid of the book and return to the full enjoyment of flying.

Crash99 [sm=greedy.gif]

I take care of all 3 of our major events. One is a ProBro event. That one should not count due to it runs it self with no issues. SSRCCPREZ is wrong again
Crash99 what am I wrong about?.....