Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
07-27-2007, 01:14 PM
#76
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
Where did I say club operating expenses was cut? Forgive me but I don't think I did but if I have let me clarify; new members have almost no effect on existing expenses but does have the potential of providing more revenue for the club. I see it as win, win scenario. I just can't understand you line of questioning...makes little or no connection to anything I have said.
ORIGINAL: DocYates
The bottom line that I asked you was how does a CLUB cut down on expenses when you are already operating at a base level and have bills to meet?
Tommy
The bottom line that I asked you was how does a CLUB cut down on expenses when you are already operating at a base level and have bills to meet?
Tommy
I apologize for my failure to recognize your intent here, but I obviously misread what you had written.
Tommy
07-27-2007, 01:26 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield
LC, out of curiosity, just how big is the club that cut dues for new members. What are the dues, and how much is the cut for new members?
LC, out of curiosity, just how big is the club that cut dues for new members. What are the dues, and how much is the cut for new members?
The exact amounts of this or that are of little consequence to this discussion but I will tell you that dues were cut in half for all new members. There are not any initiation fees.
The funny thing is that it has the effect to generate even more enthusiasm here in the group. Really quite grand! I am proud to be involved with the guys here. Refreshing, to say the least, considering the stuff here on this forum usually…
I am not sure why your guys clubs aren’t growing but ours certainly is. I guess we are just lucky.
07-27-2007, 01:31 PM
#79
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
I never said our club was not growing. Far from it, we have had many new members this year. Retaining new members however is always a challenge.
The main reason I asked the question, was because I was wondering if you had any other competition in the area for membership, and if so how does your prices compare to theirs? Not that it really matters, since most people join a group based upon the personalities of the group and their dynamics in any case, but if a club was doing this just to generate "numbers" rather than a true interest, it brings up a good point.
In any case, good luck with your endeavor, and hopefully it will generate a keen interest and promote the hobby in your area.
Tommy
The main reason I asked the question, was because I was wondering if you had any other competition in the area for membership, and if so how does your prices compare to theirs? Not that it really matters, since most people join a group based upon the personalities of the group and their dynamics in any case, but if a club was doing this just to generate "numbers" rather than a true interest, it brings up a good point.
In any case, good luck with your endeavor, and hopefully it will generate a keen interest and promote the hobby in your area.
Tommy
07-27-2007, 01:31 PM
#80
RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: LuftwaffeOberst
I refuse to pay $100 or $200 a year, I think it's crazy... so I looked around for a club that wanted new members and loved flying without trying to line there pockets. (JMO) All the members Mow, pay for fuel and chip in one way or another to keep the prices low.
Luftwaffe Oberst
Radio Aero Modelers Club
AMA District II
Pulaski, NY
I refuse to pay $100 or $200 a year, I think it's crazy... so I looked around for a club that wanted new members and loved flying without trying to line there pockets. (JMO) All the members Mow, pay for fuel and chip in one way or another to keep the prices low.
Luftwaffe Oberst
Radio Aero Modelers Club
AMA District II
Pulaski, NY
I go to the flying field to have fun, fly and socialize, not to work. I have a small farm and I get all of the manual labor and mowing I want. I don't need to dig, mow or set fence post at the hobby site. At home my wife mows the yard and if once she thought I was mowing the flying field, guees what? I would be mowing the yard at home. She figures if I can mow at the club site, I would better be doing that at home.
I am willling to pay double dues and hire some one to do all the work at the club. We pay for the mowing now and that works well.
On a initiation fee: I think that is fine and when you have been in this hobby for a long time, you will realize that that is not a determing factor. People that stick to this hobby will, in spite of what you try. Yes, low dues may attract some, but it won't keep them. My guess, is we may retain 10% of the newbies for three years. For a real eye opener, go back over your club roster for the past 5 years and compare each one. You will begin to see what I mean.
I tried to get our club to charge a newbie, if he required club training, three years membership up front. The reason is two fold. Most of them don't stay two years, much less three and the club should get something for the effort. Especially since Tuesdays are a set aside training day. Secondly, some of them come to our club, join and get trained and then go to another club the following year after they are trained.
Our dues at present is $55 the first year and $50 thereafter if paid on time. No initiation fee. I feel for what we have this is too cheap and I have tried to get it raised. If we doubled the dues to $100, we would have more money and could forget most of the flyins that we have that don't make much money.
Most of the cheap skates I encounter that want low dues, make the most money. They buy $100 servos and complain about a $10 dues increase. Several retired members, including myself, on a fixed income agree with a dues increase.
Soap box off:::::
07-27-2007, 01:36 PM
#81
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: iflyj3
I am glad you found what you want. Personally, in 45 years of RC, I have never seen a club that every member contributed equally, especially when it comes to mowing or work in the club. I have some experience with clubs, having been the president of two of them.
I go to the flying field to have fun, fly and socialize, not to work. I have a small farm and I get all of the manual labor and mowing I want. I don't need to dig, mow or set fence post at the hobby site. At home my wife mows the yard and if once she thought I was mowing the flying field, guees what? I would be mowing the yard at home. She figures if I can mow at the club site, I would better be doing that at home.
I am willling to pay double dues and hire some one to do all the work at the club. We pay for the mowing now and that works well.
On a initiation fee: I think that is fine and when you have been in this hobby for a long time, you will realize that that is not a determing factor. People that stick to this hobby will, in spite of what you try. Yes, low dues may attract some, but it won't keep them. My guess, is we may retain 10% of the newbies for three years. For a real eye opener, go back over your club roster for the past 5 years and compare each one. You will begin to see what I mean.
I tried to get our club to charge a newbie, if he required club training, three years membership up front. The reason is two fold. Most of them don't stay two years, much less three and the club should get something for the effort. Especially since Tuesdays are a set aside training day. Secondly, some of them come to our club, join and get trained and then go to another club the following year after they are trained.
Our dues at present is $55 the first year and $50 thereafter if paid on time. No initiation fee. I feel for what we have this is too cheap and I have tried to get it raised. If we doubled the dues to $100, we would have more money and could forget most of the flyins that we have that don't make much money.
Most of the cheap skates I encounter that want low dues, make the most money. They buy $100 servos and complain about a $10 dues increase. Several retired members, including myself, on a fixed income agree with a dues increase.
Soap box off:::::
I am glad you found what you want. Personally, in 45 years of RC, I have never seen a club that every member contributed equally, especially when it comes to mowing or work in the club. I have some experience with clubs, having been the president of two of them.
I go to the flying field to have fun, fly and socialize, not to work. I have a small farm and I get all of the manual labor and mowing I want. I don't need to dig, mow or set fence post at the hobby site. At home my wife mows the yard and if once she thought I was mowing the flying field, guees what? I would be mowing the yard at home. She figures if I can mow at the club site, I would better be doing that at home.
I am willling to pay double dues and hire some one to do all the work at the club. We pay for the mowing now and that works well.
On a initiation fee: I think that is fine and when you have been in this hobby for a long time, you will realize that that is not a determing factor. People that stick to this hobby will, in spite of what you try. Yes, low dues may attract some, but it won't keep them. My guess, is we may retain 10% of the newbies for three years. For a real eye opener, go back over your club roster for the past 5 years and compare each one. You will begin to see what I mean.
I tried to get our club to charge a newbie, if he required club training, three years membership up front. The reason is two fold. Most of them don't stay two years, much less three and the club should get something for the effort. Especially since Tuesdays are a set aside training day. Secondly, some of them come to our club, join and get trained and then go to another club the following year after they are trained.
Our dues at present is $55 the first year and $50 thereafter if paid on time. No initiation fee. I feel for what we have this is too cheap and I have tried to get it raised. If we doubled the dues to $100, we would have more money and could forget most of the flyins that we have that don't make much money.
Most of the cheap skates I encounter that want low dues, make the most money. They buy $100 servos and complain about a $10 dues increase. Several retired members, including myself, on a fixed income agree with a dues increase.
Soap box off:::::
Tommy
07-27-2007, 01:38 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
I think with the direction this thread is going it is not hard to see why people are shying away from clubs and going the parkflyer route. And when they move up from parkflyers they wil still be flying somewhere else other than the local club. Three years club dues. Yeah right.
07-27-2007, 01:41 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: DocYates
I never said our club was not growing. Far from it, we have had many new members this year. Retaining new members however is always a challenge.
I never said our club was not growing. Far from it, we have had many new members this year. Retaining new members however is always a challenge.
I hope your club rises to the challenge. I hope we can also.
07-27-2007, 01:59 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
I think with the direction this thread is going it is not hard to see why people are shying away from clubs and going the parkflyer route. And when they move up from parkflyers they wil still be flying somewhere else other than the local club. Three years club dues. Yeah right.
I think with the direction this thread is going it is not hard to see why people are shying away from clubs and going the parkflyer route. And when they move up from parkflyers they wil still be flying somewhere else other than the local club. Three years club dues. Yeah right.
I think you have a point. We have been lucky and actually have attracted many otherwise non-club types lately but the clubs I belong to are quite different than most illuminated here. We have quite a diverse membership base with a one for all, all for one relationship. I have been impressed by these clubs, especially when compared to some other club experiences I have had.
One of the greatest things about my clubs is that no one keeps score of people’s fair share. Some of us do more and contribute more without absolutely any need for recognition…the essence of true giving.
07-27-2007, 02:00 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
For someone so passionate about increasing involvement in the hobby I find it strange that he can't offer a little more than "just get it done" when asked some specifics.
I for one would like to know the name of the club that did this, contacts, contact them and see how much their new reduced price increased their membership in 6 months or so. How much did they reduce the dues? How did they sell this to the membership? what was their membership in the first place?. Private owned flying site, non-AMA chartered. Is this site owned by one member, or does the club own the field, is it used free of charge, leased?. No insurance concerns? Get some numbers to help sell the idea to my local club if it in fact does have a measurable impact on membership growth.
Lacking this, I can only assume we are faced with a well meaning smoke screen.
I for one would like to know the name of the club that did this, contacts, contact them and see how much their new reduced price increased their membership in 6 months or so. How much did they reduce the dues? How did they sell this to the membership? what was their membership in the first place?. Private owned flying site, non-AMA chartered. Is this site owned by one member, or does the club own the field, is it used free of charge, leased?. No insurance concerns? Get some numbers to help sell the idea to my local club if it in fact does have a measurable impact on membership growth.
Lacking this, I can only assume we are faced with a well meaning smoke screen.
07-27-2007, 02:05 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
I think you have a point. We have been lucky and actually have attracted many otherwise non-club types lately but the clubs I belong to are quite different than most illuminated here. We have quite a diverse membership base with a one for all, all for one relationship. I have been impressed by these clubs, especially when compared to some other club experiences I have had.
One of the greatest things about my clubs is that no one keeps score of people’s fair share. Some of us do more and contribute more without absolutely any need for recognition…the essence of true giving.
I think you have a point. We have been lucky and actually have attracted many otherwise non-club types lately but the clubs I belong to are quite different than most illuminated here. We have quite a diverse membership base with a one for all, all for one relationship. I have been impressed by these clubs, especially when compared to some other club experiences I have had.
One of the greatest things about my clubs is that no one keeps score of people’s fair share. Some of us do more and contribute more without absolutely any need for recognition…the essence of true giving.
07-27-2007, 02:11 PM
#88
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
One of the greatest things about my clubs is that no one keeps score of people’s fair share. Some of us do more and contribute more without absolutely any need for recognition…the essence of true giving.
One of the greatest things about my clubs is that no one keeps score of people’s fair share. Some of us do more and contribute more without absolutely any need for recognition…the essence of true giving.
It is a sad fact of human emotion. Heck even hippies couldn't get along all the time...LOL
Tommy
07-27-2007, 02:17 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
Oh BTW
If someone indicated they could not afford club dues I guarantee he would be invited to fly for free and invariably would be asked by someone do you need some fuel, glow plugs, rubber bands... anything? Actually have even paid a newbie’s AMA dues, which went on to become a very productive club member and a real asset to the club. We feel that by far and large people DO want to be responsible and pay at least their fair share. I know we hold an inverse philosophy usually maintained but never the less it is so.
If someone indicated they could not afford club dues I guarantee he would be invited to fly for free and invariably would be asked by someone do you need some fuel, glow plugs, rubber bands... anything? Actually have even paid a newbie’s AMA dues, which went on to become a very productive club member and a real asset to the club. We feel that by far and large people DO want to be responsible and pay at least their fair share. I know we hold an inverse philosophy usually maintained but never the less it is so.
07-27-2007, 02:17 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: DocYates
You truly are blessed if that is the case. I have had the priviledge of being a member of clubs like this in the past, but will warn you that no matter hhow secure you think your utopia may be, it will not last. Politics, jealousy, and any other mutlitude of human weaknesses will inevitably find their way into your happy commune. There is no way it will not. Unless you equally distribute the wealth and the costs of running your club sooner, not later, it will come home to roost. I have seen it happen. There is always going to be someone who will not be happy that some else is either doing more or getting more than someone else in the group. I am only you this to warn you that eventually it will not work. I wish it was not the case, but it may be 10 years or two months, but you will remember that I told you it can't happen.
It is a sad fact of human emotion. Heck even hippies couldn't get along all the time...LOL
Tommy
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
One of the greatest things about my clubs is that no one keeps score of people’s fair share. Some of us do more and contribute more without absolutely any need for recognition…the essence of true giving.
One of the greatest things about my clubs is that no one keeps score of people’s fair share. Some of us do more and contribute more without absolutely any need for recognition…the essence of true giving.
It is a sad fact of human emotion. Heck even hippies couldn't get along all the time...LOL
Tommy
07-27-2007, 02:18 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
Red,
Becareful or you will need a nitro pill. This is so easy. If you get 4 new mwmbers at half price, you actually gain more than 1 new member at full price. There is no smoke involved here, just basic financial principals. There is a place in your town called "Wal-Mart", a financial giant built on these principals.
Becareful or you will need a nitro pill. This is so easy. If you get 4 new mwmbers at half price, you actually gain more than 1 new member at full price. There is no smoke involved here, just basic financial principals. There is a place in your town called "Wal-Mart", a financial giant built on these principals.
07-27-2007, 02:21 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
You got it Doc, and the disgruntled members will break off, move down the road (if they are lucky) and start a new utopian club just as Mark (LC) did when he ran afoul of the Tyler Moders Club and established another club ON THE SAME site.
07-27-2007, 02:21 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: DocYates
I wish it was not the case, but it may be 10 years or two months, but you will remember that I told you it can't happen.
It is a sad fact of human emotion. Heck even hippies couldn't get along all the time...LOL
Tommy
I wish it was not the case, but it may be 10 years or two months, but you will remember that I told you it can't happen.
It is a sad fact of human emotion. Heck even hippies couldn't get along all the time...LOL
Tommy
Oh btw I aready have a few years to the good...I am way ahead of the game.
07-27-2007, 02:27 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
Red,
Becareful or you will need a nitro pill. This is so easy. If you get 4 new mwmbers at half price, you actually gain more than 1 new member at full price. There is no smoke involved here, just basic financial principals. There is a place in your town called "Wal-Mart", a financial giant built on these principals.
Red,
Becareful or you will need a nitro pill. This is so easy. If you get 4 new mwmbers at half price, you actually gain more than 1 new member at full price. There is no smoke involved here, just basic financial principals. There is a place in your town called "Wal-Mart", a financial giant built on these principals.
The utopian model club: "From each according to his ability. to each according to his need". Now a dose of reality! I wonder if anyone has figured it out yet. Needs grow as you feed them, likewise so do abilities, but far more slowly. Growing abilities takes individual commitment, while no commitment is good fertilizer for needs :-) Therefore, by definition, utopian clubs can't work for long as the needs far outweigh the abilities eventually.
07-27-2007, 02:28 PM
#95
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
Yeah, but even Walmart charges folks, the only people I know of that give it away for free the first time, are crack dealers....LOL. Let's look at it this way. The crack dealer gives it to you for free, knowing you are going to get hooked and have to come back later, when he can charge you double the going rate. A prostitute on the other hand will charge you the same each time, she to knows you are going to get hooked, but at least she is running an honest business.
You may get more members in the short term, but keeping them is the real effort. Those four members more than likely will in the long run only be one (if you accept a retention rate of 25%) and that one member now is faced with the responsibility to provide as much to the cooperative effort as the four was expected to do. In reality that one dedicated member would have probably joined and been retained no matter what you expected of him. If he is addicted to it, it will not matter.
We put too much emphasis on getting them in and hooking them, when in reality if you ask the majority of modelers, they knew before they ever started that they wanted to do this.
Tommy
You may get more members in the short term, but keeping them is the real effort. Those four members more than likely will in the long run only be one (if you accept a retention rate of 25%) and that one member now is faced with the responsibility to provide as much to the cooperative effort as the four was expected to do. In reality that one dedicated member would have probably joined and been retained no matter what you expected of him. If he is addicted to it, it will not matter.
We put too much emphasis on getting them in and hooking them, when in reality if you ask the majority of modelers, they knew before they ever started that they wanted to do this.
Tommy
07-27-2007, 02:32 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield
You got it Doc, and the disgruntled members will break off, move down the road (if they are lucky) and start a new utopian club just as Mark (LC) did when he ran afoul of the Tyler Moders Club and established another club ON THE SAME site.
You got it Doc, and the disgruntled members will break off, move down the road (if they are lucky) and start a new utopian club just as Mark (LC) did when he ran afoul of the Tyler Moders Club and established another club ON THE SAME site.
07-27-2007, 02:34 PM
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RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
Tommy, it was red who made a big deal out of the financials. What is really the burr under his saddle is the fact that Mark flies at the same site as the other club under a parrallel lease arraingement and now the club Mark is in is now competing for the same new members. The original club is certainly run by folks of likes of many in this forum and have tried to "Lord" over public land. The city fathers in Mark's town has terminated that lordship and now they must compete and obviously not too well.. thus Red's sour grapes.
07-27-2007, 02:36 PM
#98
RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield
For someone so passionate about increasing involvement in the hobby I find it strange that he can't offer a little more than "just get it done" when asked some specifics.
I for one would like to know the name of the club that did this, contacts, contact them and see how much their new reduced price increased their membership in 6 months or so. How much did they reduce the dues? How did they sell this to the membership? what was their membership in the first place?. Private owned flying site, non-AMA chartered. Is this site owned by one member, or does the club own the field, is it used free of charge, leased?. No insurance concerns? Get some numbers to help sell the idea to my local club if it in fact does have a measurable impact on membership growth.
Lacking this, I can only assume we are faced with a well meaning smoke screen.
For someone so passionate about increasing involvement in the hobby I find it strange that he can't offer a little more than "just get it done" when asked some specifics.
I for one would like to know the name of the club that did this, contacts, contact them and see how much their new reduced price increased their membership in 6 months or so. How much did they reduce the dues? How did they sell this to the membership? what was their membership in the first place?. Private owned flying site, non-AMA chartered. Is this site owned by one member, or does the club own the field, is it used free of charge, leased?. No insurance concerns? Get some numbers to help sell the idea to my local club if it in fact does have a measurable impact on membership growth.
Lacking this, I can only assume we are faced with a well meaning smoke screen.
And after 75 posts (correction: 88 posts) you come to this conclusion? How long are you going to let this one roll? Read my post WAY at the beginning.
Rafael
07-27-2007, 02:37 PM
#99
RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
Tommy, it was red who made a big deal out of the financials. What is really the burr under his saddle is the fact that Mark flies at the same site as the other club under a parrallel lease arraingement and now the club Mark is in is now competing for the same new members. The original club is certainly run by folks of likes of many in this forum and have tried to "Lord" over public land. The city fathers in Mark's town has terminated that lordship and now they must compete and obviously not too well.. thus Red's sour grapes.
Tommy, it was red who made a big deal out of the financials. What is really the burr under his saddle is the fact that Mark flies at the same site as the other club under a parrallel lease arraingement and now the club Mark is in is now competing for the same new members. The original club is certainly run by folks of likes of many in this forum and have tried to "Lord" over public land. The city fathers in Mark's town has terminated that lordship and now they must compete and obviously not too well.. thus Red's sour grapes.
07-27-2007, 02:49 PM
#100
RE: Why do we have outlandish fees to join AMA clubs?
Ok guys, let's everybody take a deep breath and relax for a few minutes. I just had to remove a string of posts stemming from some personal comments made in the thread, and the replies to that post. I totally understand that everybody is passionate about their position in this matter, but that passion needs to stay under control. Personal jabs, stabs, attacks, comments, or whatever are never alllowed here on RCU. So while we discuss the issue at hand let's try to keep in mind that we are talking to other people out there in the world and not an impersonal computer screen. Try to take that into account before posting messages. Let's try and post in the same manner that you would like to be addressed. I think that this is a great topic of discussion here and I have no intentions of closing it down, but that doesn't mean that I won't hesitate to clean it up if it goes crazy again.
Ken
Ken