outnumbering
 

Well JR I think they arent doing a ton of bashing is that they know there are a few out there that really are causing problems and that most of them fly safely and know when the can and cannot do their 3D safely. I have never ever said that it was anything but a few of them causeing the problems and I really thing the poll shows that that there is a joint concern over the issue. That they issue is really about how to settle it.

As stated before leaving it up to the cd is being done every event right now and it isnt changing anything that is why I feel it is time to go one step further and just eliminate that type of flying during open events. is it so hard for them to show some restraint at these events and do their hovering and waterfalls and blenders at events just for that? you know I hear people saying that warbird guys should just make warbird only events. well who said open events were just for 3D guys? it could be said the same why dont the 3D guys just hold their 3D only events? but all you here is them whining for the warbird guys to go away, why not keep the events as they were setup to be multi type events and those wanting to do specialty flying like 3D just go away and create their own events. As stated earlier Aerobatics can be done safely at open events but 3D maneuvers require a lot of airspace and at an event with other planes in the air it is just plain unsafe pure and simple.

Joe

Safety Issues
 

ProfLooney,

I think your tag line sums up this entire thread and I am moving on as there is nothing that is going to change your mind. Not even your own poll that flies in the face of you position yet you read it in a completely different way than everyone else.

If you can't Dazzle them with Brilliance
Baffle them with Bull :0)

That is exactly what you are doing here.

RIchard
 

Nice to meet the real you Richard.

Now to stress my point as why I stated earlier I felt you probably were one of them guys. In your post above you just confirmed it. Now not BASHING you personally but pointing out what I am getting at.

I hover a Spad over the far end of the run way and move off when someone calls out a take off or landing except I have stayed there when one gentleman known for low high speed passes was buzzing past a full flight line.

Earlier you made fun of me for ramming someone who wouldnt move but here you are even though for only 1 person one of those that refuses to move. Now what happens with the next person you dont agree with their type of flying? You going to hover right there for them too?

I lost a plane to a mid air last week when I was flying about 30 feet up straight down the run way with the "pattern". Another plane on the same flight path took me out and the plane fell straight down on the run way and it was never considered a safety issue.

Again as with the first quote you state you are flying over the runway. When you fly the right hand or left hand "Pattern" you never fly over the runway you fly to the far side of the runway. what happens if you are out flying and there are other planes up and someone at the far end declares an emegerncy landing and you cannot hear them?

Now it is time for me now that i got to know the real you to convert you if possible. Do you think that flying 2o feet on the far side of the runway is going to make it harder for you to hover or see your plane as it makes a pass? The ONLY times ANY aircraft should be over the runway at all is for takeoff, Landing, Touch and goes if there are no other planes around or after calling out to the other pilots on the flightline and asking if it would be possible to practice approaches or do some touch and goes and they give it to you, or you are flying in a scale event where part of the pattern is down the runway in front of the judges. Everything else should be done at least 20 feet beyond the runway for safety reasons.

dont you agree?

Joe

Another Reply
 

Another reply

OK this time came from District II VP Dave Mathewson:

Hi Joe,
I've read your email, understand and even agree somewhat with your concerns. I guess though, and this is just MY opinion, I would want to be very careful and would need to hear an extremely compelling argument before I would vote to place another rule in what I consider to be an already cumbersome Safety Code. Especially to address an issue that might be better handled by the participants in these events exercising just a little common sense, courtesy, and consideration for each other.
AMA chartered clubs are autonomous and should be able to determine the discipline of flying they allow at their events without interference from us. On the other hand, safety should be everyone's priority and I would think these issues could, and should, be resolved at the event level. In my experience I find that most CD's try to run safe events. If that's not the case, then the onus should divert to the participants. If enough pilots feel they are uncomfortable flying in certain conditions, and the CD is unwilling to change those conditions, then the logical result will be lower participation and possibly the ultimate demise of the event.
If you feel strongly enough about this, as an AMA member, you have the right to ask that your concerns be addressed through your district vice president, per Article XI, Section 6 of the AMA By Laws. It would be helpful if you were to prepare for for him a well though out argument supporting your request with significant data (not anecdotal) to support your position. In the course of doing this, maybe you could ask your friends who are flying in these events in question if they might have alternate solutions that could better help resolve the issue.
Dave Mathewson
AMA Vice President, District 2


Joe

RE: Another Reply
 

Hi Joe

That was an interesting response from Dave Mathewson. Have you contacted your VP with the facts? It sure seems to put the ball in your court.

JR

RE: Safety Issues
 

Actually Bill Oberdeik is my VP (for now seems he selling off all his RC stuff he getting out of it?) and so is Charlie Bauer. I belong to two clubs and both are in different districts so I have 2 of them. I been pretty busy with work and studying lately to give it the time needed but should be able to this weekend. Seems Basin just solidified what I am getting at as I posted above. yes that is just 1 example but if you read Daves responses first he says to contact my VP. Well Bill says the EC and Safety Council is looking into the matter trying to find a solution. I then wrote back as posted above a possibl;e solution and have never heard back. CHarlie hasnt even replied back yet. all I can do is what I have and that is make them aware of the issue and make suggestions the rest is up to them. I am going to use Basin's reply to how he hovers over the runway and flies down it as an example but thats only one. Cmon unless you have statements like that or Pictures it is hard to give solid data instead of inuendos and if they have not heard of this problem by many others by now and cannot see there really is a problem I guess theres no hope for them no matter how much they are told of the problem.

Joe

RE: Safety Issues
 

OK JR I sent one last letter and it wasnt all nice. I may even really tick him off but i dont think you can be nice all the time when these guys seem to start blowing you off below is my letter. (yea i am an antagonist but sometimes these guys need as kick in the arse to get them going. If one person sees them acting one way they may start to wonder how many more hiding in the shadows feel the same way)

Hi Dave
I have corresponded to Bill Oberdeik as he is one of my VP the other Charlie Bauer has noe responded still and he is also my VP. I live on the border between 2 districts and belong to a club in each. I just thought I would pass a response to a comment I made on RCU so that it makes my point for me:

Joe,
My name is Richard Dragin and I usually fly at Sepulvada Basin in Los Angeles where I am fairly well know. I fly a 1/4 scale Extra Imac style as I am not proficient enough to 3D yet. I also pylon race and fly fun fly's.

I hover a Spad over the far end of the run way and move off when someone calls out a take off or landing except I have stayed there when one gentleman known for low high speed passes was buzzing past a full flight line. He asked me to fly higher which I thought was funny that somehow he had a right to that airspace.

I lost a plane to a mid air last week when I was flying about 30 feet up straight down the run way with the "pattern". Another plane on the same flight path took me out and the plane fell straight down on the run way and it was never considered a safety issue.

First you can see he hovers over the runway even if it is at the far end should not be done. Second he says he refuses to move for a person because he doesnt like the way he flies. and finally he had a midair when him and someone else were flying OVER the runway. I have always been taught and the clubs I have belonged to always said the only flying over the runway should be done for takeoff and landing or for practicing touch and goes when it is appropriate. It is really hard to give hard data unless people like the one above blatently state it in writing in some forum or you run around the country taking photos. We all know there is a problem and that this guy is not the only one doing it. the real problem I see is for the EC to actually take this seriously and try very hard to come up with a solution. I am not saying that there isnt anything in the works as I am not a member and do not know. But what I do think may be happening (and not meaning to affend but stating my mind to get it off my chest as this issue is very important to me) Is that it is politics coming into play. And that is that there are far more Aerobatic guys out there than scale guys or others that goe to events thus noone wants to anger the majority voters. Again I may be wrong but it seems a lot of politics goes on more than worrying abt the membership.

Regards
Joseph Huntley

RE: Safety Issues
 

Hi Joe

I don't know how to put this nicely, so here goes.

Read what Mathewson told you. If you are not willing to do the research and documentation and expect others to do it for you.... forget it. Telling stories and copying posts are not the kind of things that will elicit action on the part of the EC. It's work, it's time consuming, and it is not fun. Fish, or cut bait.

JR

RE: Safety Issues
 

First JR ya know me by now dont need to worry abt being nice just say it plainly then there can be no mistakes :)

as for the legwork etc it isnt so much doing the work it is the fact that its kinda hard to hit every single event to take pics of the problems. Just like Bill said in his letter to me THEY ARE AWARE OF THE PROBLEM AND TRYING TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION. Thus there doesnt need to be the legwork in this case only the kick in the pants to get them trying harder. as far as using a post well what better way to prove my point than showing them what at least 1 person says showing how he flies which strengthens my point. and if there were 10 other people posting saying similar things I would grab them up as well as further proof. it is opne thing for me to say people do it it is another to use the written words of people like that to back me up. Like I said time to sit back and see if anything gets done. as you showed before MA is several months behind when they publish so maybe this is mute and something is already waiting to be printed on this. If I give them time to use MA to respond publically fine then I can go back and do a little more pants kicking like you said why tick them off and hammering them constantly with out giving them time to respond would be silly. in the mean time I can gather more bullets.

Joe

RE: Safety Issues
 

Joe,

To the casual observer it appears that initially you were saying that we needed a rule disallowing 3D at events that were not 3D events. Now you are saying we need to regulate ALL 3D activities and that is not a good thing to the view of many in the hobby.

More unenforceable regulations are never the answer to safety issues rather education and cooperation between different types of flyers is. It appears that the example you quoted was taken from someone who may (or may not) have a personal problem within his club. That should not be taken as the basis of any national regulation. However, within the club it is clear that it does contribute to the decline of membership and or activity which generally leads to disbandment.

While I understand your concern, I disagree with your approach to the solution. I see your way as excessive regulation that allows the dreaded 'Field Nazis more tools to destroy the camaraderie among modelers. That in no way means you are wrong, just your chosen solution will not contribute positively to the hobby.

That all being said, you can always vote with your feet by not attending events where CD's fail to meet your expectations as to reasonable safety issues. I know have taken that type of action for several years where the CD's have taken a 'wink and nod' approach to the implementation of the AMA Safety Code at an event.

RE: Safety Issues
 

hi Jim no I am not a reg nazi saying we need to reg non event stuff I was just using the statement to show the attitude and feelings he had abt flying over the runway, the refuseal to move because he didnt like the other guys flying style, and the seeing noting wrong with flying over the runway at all. I myself dont like a lot of the regs but I abide by them and expect others to also. Myself and I would bet others (but cannot say for sure) would accept the more regulations at events if it makes them safer and more fun for everyone.

Joe

RE: Safety Issues
 

Ok GUys I recieved a response and replied. I guess I need to stop and calm down a little before I send my replies as I need to word them more carefully.

Morning Joe,
First, I do on occasion, browse the threads on RCU. I've reviewed the one involving this topic and I've seen your post where you seem to think I blew you off. So let's see. You send a mass email to the EC with your thoughts (not a bad thing). I take the time to read it and draft a response. I indicate you may have a legitimate concern but I'm not sure I agree with your "solution". I suggest that you expand on your thoughts and present them to your district VP, who would then have an obligation to present them to the EC. I even outlined the section in the AMA By-Laws referencing this. You only get one VP, by the way. I believe you said you lived in District 6, so that would be Charlie Bauer. Your reaction to that is, and the only conclusion I can come to because I didn't jump right up and agree with you, that I blew you off. Frankly, I think my only obligation here would have been to simply acknowledge your email. Instead I took the time to respond. Now, your second email to me did little more than echo the first and ended with a "thanks for your time". It didn't appear to me you expected a reply.
I suggested to you how you might go about presenting your concerns. In a post on RCU you say you're too busy. Then you say nobody is willing to listen to you because of politics. So let's take a look at the example you've given below and your proposed "solution". Here's a guy, out at a local field, in a normal flying session, who had an incident. While Richard says he does practice hovering with a SPAD off the end of the runway, that's not what he was doing here. During this incident he says he was flying "straight down the run way with the "pattern". Another plane on the same flight path took me out". BOTH MODELS WERE FLYING IN THE PATTERN. No one was hovering or 3Ding. Not a sanctioned event. Not a Warbird event. Not an IMAC event. Here's your proposed solution, "Ban 3D/IMAC style flying at Warbird/Scale sanctioned events and ban Warbird/Scale type flying at 3D/IMAC sanctioned events". How does your "solution" address the problem below that you presented as the impetus for creating this new policy? It doesn't! By the way. Where were their spotters?
Now, it's entirely possible Bill Oberdieck is working on something with the Safety Committee. I don't know everything that everybody's doing at any given time. I do know Bill is a "big bird guy" and is extremely safety conscious. I can also tell you that the issue of hovering over the runway, touching hovering airplanes in flight, etc. has been discussed and is continuing to be discussed as a safety concern.
I haven't seen much of a mandate one way or the other on RCU about what direction this issue should take. But, I'll say this again, if you feel strongly about this issue, it would help us if you could present to the EC some sort of documentation along with some legitimate solutions on how the perceived problem might be addressed. You're the guys that fly the events.
I'll be away until Monday. Tomorrow I'll be at the NEAT Fair in the southern tier of New York. It's an electric event. There were three midairs there last year. No hovering, no 3D flying. They just happened.

Dave Mathewson
AMA Vice President, District 2

Thanks Dave
I sometimes get frustrated at what I see is something serious being what I feel is overlooked or ignored. All I seem to hear from everyone is we dont need to over regulate and that really gets my dander up because though we dont like more regulation there are times we need it. Now as far as the blowing off statement I wasnt meaning you, I admit I should have clarified it better to say that though you and Bill had replied that i didnt even recieve a reply from Charlie or even Dave Brown on this matter. I know people do go out of town, but figured enough time had gone by that my email would have been seen by now and is being blown off by those persons.

As for the example I know it isn't at an event, but to show an attitude that the person had. If the person has that attitude at local field how does he fly at an event? does he feel the same way at events? It was just enforcing my views that there are people out there with that mindset.

As for the Documentation I readily admit i haven't got a clue as to how you go about documenting this unless a person was to run around to every event and spy on them for infringements, make a comment to the CD and log it. For me that is an expensive venture in my present situation and abt an impossible task thus that is my feeling that i am being blon off on this matter as I feel it is an impossible task but would be willing to hear any suggestions as to how this can be accomplished other than how I see it being done.

Thanks again for your time I honestly do appreciate it of those that take the time to respond
Joe

Joe

RE: Safety Issues
 

Joe

Let me try to make my point one more time. If you get a rule passed, and the CD still does not enforce it, what is the point? The problem is with the CD and not with the rules. If you want to call on the EC to do something, call for a program that instructs the CD on what he MUST do under the terms of his appointment as a CD. Alternately, ask that sanctions be more specific as to what types of flying will be allowed. If the CD writes his sanction so that it offends you, do not attend the event. Your concern should be that the event is what it supposed to be in the sanction. If open flying allows 3D flying, during open flying, at a fly-in, and that is clear in the sanction, I can not see that you have a gripe.

The CD progam does have problems, in my opinion, and the problems and abuses do need to be addressed. Refusing to be part of the solution to the CD abuses will not help repair the problems.

JR

RE: Safety Issues
 

Profloony

for starters I was at Dayton: I thought everything was run very well. Thanks Jeff. If you were there you would of heard and seen that there was a time for warbirds and a time for 3d. Im sure this has been posted before, but frankly, I got boarded with reading all this crap and just skipped most of it. I go to probably 10 flyins per year. That is the best and only way to mix the two. When warbirds fly we sit back and say ha watch Ill bet he does a low pass followed by a mid field break on my mark. and when we fly I bet you guys sit back and say ha watch I bet he does a harrier into a torque roll. So be it. everyone has to do what makes them happy. As far as safty issues go. If something goes wrong with any of these "toys" safety is an issue.

Im sorry, but I couldn't sit back and listen to the ramblings of Profloony. Youve got some serious issues you need to deal with dude

dave

RE: Safety Issues
 

Ok JR I agree it should be more on the CDs BUT as you so readily pointed out If you get a rule passed, and the CD still does not enforce it, what is the point? so if they train and hammer the cds if the cds dont listen now how is your solution going to work either?

I think we all can agree something needs done its just what will work best? you think regulate the cds more, and I think if the cds wont listen now that if they cant have these things going on in their events it may not fully stop it but would at least put a big dent in it.

As for seeing whats going to be going on at an event thats fine but a lot of times most flyers dont give full specifics. Now maybe if something was regulated in the way the fliyers have to be written with full disclosure on types of flying and how it is organized and that was adhered to that might work but then again catch 22 the CDs need to enforce them. it is all a big mess that neds to be looked into at depth with no happy solutions for everyone.

Joe

RE: Safety Issues
 

Joe

The solution is simple. One individual complaing about a CD will probably not be enough to bring action. However, if 3 or 4 pilots are willing to make the same claim of violations, that probably will bring a reveue of some sort. If you are not willing to confront the CD in a reasonalbe manner, you have no comlaint coming. If he does not respond, within the rules and/or the terms of his sanction, you have recourse. Write to your VP with your complaint and have the others that feel the same way do so. If you alone are the only one to see fault, you have to consider the possibility that you are out of step and off base.

Sanctions are reviewed by the AMA before they are issued. If you have suggestions on how to structure a sanction, make them known to your VP with the support of others. You need to find out what the current structure is before you start trying to modify it. Again, a lone voice will not bring the concern of a call by many. It is a lot easier to deal with the relatively few number of CDs than to try to control the actions of 170,000 people. The CD program is being reviewed. Find out who is on the committe doing that and what they already are doing. Don't go off half-cocked.

JR

RE: Safety Issues
 

the loon said:

soory dude, but i don't think ya got anywhere near a consusus, of more than one anyway.

RE: Safety Issues
 

well mongo it appears the polls didnt transfer but JR can attest that the largest percentages of poll member said that yes there is a problem and that the flying needs to be seperated at events with specific times for each type. I can not remember exactly how i worded it but that was the one with the most so thats where my we see there is a problem comes from

Joe

RE: Safety Issues
 

last time i saw the poll, the largest single percentage was in the leave it as is catagory.

now maby if ya do some creative additions, ya can get larger group outa putting 2 together, but that aint really right either.

RE: Safety Issues
 

mongo

this was what I observed about the poll: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.a...506&tostyle=tm

RE: Safety Issues
 

Joe,
Please do not use apples to prove oranges.

Having said that, let me give you some help. Several folks have said what you need to do and you seem to have blown them off repeatedly.

Let me restate it in different terms.

You contend we (AMA members) have a major safety issue that is being ignored. Remember that special rules for all events must go through the Contest Boards since THEY write the rule book CD's use. That is why you cannot just point and instruct the AMA EC to go forth and create. However, with a properly presented case (which you have NOT done yet) they generally will take the task on as a necessary evil since others have already been charged with the job.

To get the EC's attention and intervention you must write a complete rule that totally solves the major problem that (apparently only) you see. Make sure it is enforceable and fair to all. To accomplish this task you will need to document the need for the rule, the enforcement methods to be used

RE: Safety Issues
 

All the sanction get’s you is, a small advertisement in the back of the AMA magazine. It does not get you any additional insurance for the Landowner our club.

At our club we always purchase the additional insurance to cover the landowner. Sometimes we don’t even sanction are event. We hit the pavement with fliers, and local advertising. In my opinion why sanction, it’s a waste of time.

As long as all the pilots are AMA. the event is covered

RE: Safety Issues
 

rnav

What you state is true.. up to a point. Not all sanctioned events take place on a club's site. Some are sanctioned on a site that is not normally used for RC flying. For those occasions, site insurance for the landlord is available as part of the sanctioning process.

If your intent is to grow an event over time, the advertising does help. It also helps in what it was really designed for, that being "rule book events". If you want to fly, say, pattern, where do you find pattern events to attend? In the back of MA in most cases.

The biggest single reason that folks have become CD's over the last few years is that many manufacturers will only donate to sanctioned events. That is also a root cause of the problems faced in the CD program. These newer CDs simply do not know how to properly run a large event and do not realize their responsibility.

For the average club wanting a club fun-fly, your absolutely correct that there is no need for a sanction.

JR

RE: Safety Issues
 

notice my use of the words, "last time i looked" whic was rather early in the poll. as leading as the poll was worded it did and does not warrent any real attention.

edit in:
and yeah, i was remembering your post in what i said earlier.


i still say that the loon is on solitary ground here, as no one want more regulations, everyone i speak to wants less.


any of you guys manage to get subscribed to a thread unintentionaly? if so, how do ya unsubscribe from it?

found it, hidden in the inbox, button at top of page, is my subscribtions.

RE: Safety Issues
 

Point well taken