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GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Old 10-05-2004, 01:50 PM
  #51  
Redrata
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Listed: I read that the flying wires are not functional, honestly I think that they dont really look as if they were. I thinkthat if the wing if about to come off, those flying wires will not stop it to happen. So I opened the upper part of my upper wing and install 3 mm blind nuts with bolts even thou my model is stamped "updated" . I took the chance to make the spars inside stronger; joining to the former spar another hardwood at its side and and placing another web spar over the previous one. Did the same at the back part of the wing (with the two other screws). I am not going to use flying wires, I think this reinforcement plus the new bolts combined with the interplane struts must work. Also the cabane struts are attached with 3 mm bolts and blind nuts to the inside hardwood spar inside the fuselage. I am just using common sense.
Old 10-05-2004, 03:45 PM
  #52  
Dave G
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Dennis (drdoom), Fuji 50 with an onboard starter?! That sure sounds like a nice set up but be prepaired to mount a block of lead in the spare rudder servo cutout in the aft fuselage. I ended up only having to relocate my Rx batteries (twin 6 volt, 1200 mAh) to the bottom of the cockpit floor for the correct balance. I have seen 2 of these Pitts that were well over 20 pounds. While they do "fly" well, they land like a brick being thrown down a well! Mine, at 17 pounds, is much more forgiving at slower speeds. It doesn't float on landing, but is a dream compared to 20+ pounders. The plastic lacing for the flying wires is "Rexlace" from [link=http://www.pepperell.com/]Pepperell[/link]. I got a 100 yard roll before I realized it came in a 10 yard roll too. I'll sell enough for the whole plane that'll include plenty of extra (while supplies last) for $3.00, shipped. Just send me a PM. You supply the clevis's.

Listed,THE FLYING WIRES ARE NOT NECESSARY ON THIS MODEL. If built within the guidelines of GP, there's practically no chance of structural failure. I made my tail wires "structural" because I flipped the planes on it's back once and cracked the fin. If these had been in place I'm sure it would not have gotten damaged. If you're bulding this model to the point where the flying wires are needed, the interplane struts are the weak link then. Anyone who says this model needs functional flying wires are the ones overpowering them and pulling the wings off. Redrata has taken the "beefing up" to about the ultimate limit for a very reliable flyer. I'm not trying to flame 'ya, but it's like no matter how many times you tell a kid to quit putting a paperclip into the wall outlet, he doesn't realize getting shocked is a bad thing.

I like the new flying wires just for the "look". The wire ones that come with the Pitts look like junk.

Man, my palms are sweating!

Here's a couple shots of the tail wires. 2-56 music wire, soldered on both ends. They're silver soldered. With a torch and high temperature solder. Regular soldering probably would have been okay, but since I went to all this trouble...

Build light. Well, as light as practical!
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Old 10-05-2004, 04:52 PM
  #53  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Dave did you solder them while they were in-place? Is there any way to adjust them? I was thinking of doing the same thing except have one of the clevis' threaded. I agree about the flying wires, I don't know why people are so hung up on them having to be functional. If any body wants functional flying wires, they will need to change the screws for bolts and use 2-56 or 4-40 wires for them to be strong enough. I've seen a couple of these over powered, one with a fuji 64 and the other a 3W-75, the wings have not yet come apart.
Old 10-05-2004, 08:22 PM
  #54  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Navy, The rod is threaded on one end. I precut the wire for the clevis's. Soldered on the non-threaded end (off the model) and then adjusted the threaded end so all 4 rods were tight on the brackets. Removed 'em, and soldered the threads solid. There's no adjustment necessary if they're already tight on the brackets. I guess I soldered the threaded end so there wouldn't be that stupid little nut at the end of the clevis to cinch it solid. As long as the brackets don't move (swivel), the wires stay tight. That's an easy preflight item to check. I even masked off the clevis's and sprayed the rods with aluminum Lusterkote.
Old 10-06-2004, 03:58 PM
  #55  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

I am building this airplane. And I would like to see some video of this bird in flight, HAVE YOU SOME VIDEOS GUYS ????
Old 10-06-2004, 05:40 PM
  #56  
Dave G
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Flassh, I've been working on getting a video for Kelvin that made my exhaust. If it ever comes true, I'll post it here and it'll be on the Keleo Website too.

France? Do you call it a "Pitts~say"? Sorry, couldn't help it.
Old 10-06-2004, 11:45 PM
  #57  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Dave G, You say that the flying wires are junk in the kit. I have used them and they look pretty good to me. And while we are on the subject of 'functional-V-non functional, even though many have successfully flown without them, why not add the added support they offer just in case. Now I have argued this point with a few others and they think it makes no difference. One day someones Pitts is going to be headed for the ground fast and low and they are going to have to dump the elevator to save it. It could make the difference between snapping the wings or not. Many of you say that the wires have nothing to do with keeping the wings on but rest assured, they have everything to do with keeping them from breaking! Support! Right Navy? At least until you exceed the capasity they provide.
Here are some pix of my flying wires. bird.
By the way Listed, That model looks nice next to the full size. Do you have the full size available to measure the prop? I have a 24" on mine. It looks scale to me. Perhaps it is a little too big. I might get the same look with a 22" and more RPM's. What do you think?
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Old 10-07-2004, 07:39 AM
  #58  
Dave G
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Bigbird, I just don't like the "look" of the skinny wire supplied for the flying wires. If it gives you piece of mind to have then installed for the "if all else fails" mode, go for it. My opinion is that if the squish clamps hold, the bracket will pull out of the top wing. If the bracket should hold, the hardware will break out of the interplane struts.

Navy, looks like Bird is wanting a reply from the "other" OS user .

I do like the javelins. I made a pair out of 1/8" dowel, but they looked a little long. I've decided to just leave 'em off.

Just have fun with it!

What's the 2 holes in the top of the center section for?
Old 10-07-2004, 12:17 PM
  #59  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

ORIGINAL: bigbird3

One day someones Pitts is going to be headed for the ground fast and low and they are going to have to dump the elevator to save it. It could make the difference between snapping the wings or not. Many of you say that the wires have nothing to do with keeping the wings on but rest assured, they have everything to do with keeping them from breaking! Support! Right Navy? At least until you exceed the capasity they provide.
Here are some pix of my flying wires. bird.
By the way Listed, That model looks nice next to the full size. Do you have the full size available to measure the prop? I have a 24" on mine. It looks scale to me. Perhaps it is a little too big. I might get the same look with a 22" and more RPM's. What do you think?
Bigbird3
Thanks I to believe that the wires should be functional. I have installed them on my plane but I used thicker material and they look good. I have flown it 5 times without the wires and a couple of times after install the wires even if they don’t/won't help at least I have peace of mind when I have it in the air. Sorry I can not get the length of the prop as this plane was at our air show this year and I was lucky enough to get a picture of it with my plane. It sure was great see the real plane and watching him put it through his routine. I have a 22x8 prop on my plane and it looks and works good

Les
Old 10-08-2004, 02:29 PM
  #60  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Since some of the flyers on this thread JUST have to believe that the wires supplied with the plane ARE or should be functional because they changed the screws out to bolt and nut, lets take your doomsday scenario a few steps farther. If you pull hard enough to snap a wing off or break the brackets, you also have a 4-1/2 lb engine hanging on the front that is also going to snap off (unless you have bolted angle aluminum to the longerons/firewall bulkhead and epoxied triangle stock to the fuselage sides/firewall bulkhead), what is going to happen to this extremely tail heavy plane? Or the engine stays attached and the wing has detached from the rest of the plane, the forces required to break the wing loose are going to pull the wire through the crimped tube like Dave mentioned and you are not going to have any control of the plane anyway. And yes the wire does pull through the crimp. Most flying happens parallel to the runway and above the runway or to the far side, so when a plane does experience structural failure how does it impact the spectator? If it makes you feel better to redo everything the manufacturer did then go for it, but remember the manufacturer designed the plane to fly at a certain weight and if that weight is going to be exceeded then its that persons fault for anything that goes wrong. If one of these planes is going to come apart its going to happen, are you going to put a 3rd battery in, a 2nd or 3rd recvr, have a second transmitter at your feet ready to take over, maybe they should all have backup engines so there are no deadstick landings in the spectator area( it could happen just like the wing coming off and the plane ending up hitting someone). OK I'm off the soap box for the time being.
Old 10-08-2004, 03:43 PM
  #61  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

"Go Navy!"
Old 10-08-2004, 10:46 PM
  #62  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Navy, if you want me to stop protesting your reteric about 'flying wires having absolutely nothing to do with holding wings on planes', your words, then I will if it will make you feel better. Like I said, I'm not in a pissing contest. Just being the devils advocate so to speak. After all, one persons opinion is a limited resourse. But, if you want to be right, then you are right! I concede! You obviously know More about it than the rest of us.
I just wonder if the plane knows that it is supposed to be in the field areas you described for safety reasons even though the radio might be failing. Hum! It does happen even to a brand new one. And, I have never seen an engine thrown off of a plane because of high stress manouvers. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. And the crimps, if you do them right, the wires or the connections will pull apart before the crimps.
Navy, be big enough to be direct your comments to the person you wish to recieve them. I am! bird.
Old 10-09-2004, 11:34 AM
  #63  
rfw1953
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

This debate is almost as good as the one regarding why the B-52 crashed. I honestly believe that any of us who have purchased the Pitts find ourselves instantly liking the airplane and wanting to take great pride in the assembly. It really is a nice model out of the box. For many of us, building one from scratch that looks anywhere as good would be a real challenge.

During assembly we look for ways to personalize the assembly process thinking any modification we do will make for a better end product. Oh, you can always over do it with epoxy, strength reinforcements, redundancy, but here again it really boils down to taking pride in your project and doing what you feel makes your plane special over others. If someone wants to detail the cockpit, add vinyl decals, modify flying wires or leave all this stuff off then whats the harm? What really matters is what you feel will make you happy with the end product and more confident when flying it. Let's just not over do it and end up with a brick p@@p house that flies like a pig.

When putting a gas engine on this plane it doesn't take much to end up on the heavy side. Mine weighs between 17-18 lbs., which is about as heavy as you would want and heavier than I would have preferred. Like I said in an earlier post, when you add a full take of fuel and smoke oil it's not at all friendly on a DS. Adding wires won't add a noticeable weight difference, or provide much if any additional support. A cabbane or interplane strut bracket failure will most likely occur as a result of vibration. If this happen I would think it's doubtful that any flying wire modification would add enough support to hold the wing on. Regardless of weight, if you lose the top wing this bird is coming down hard. But, wires do add an nice scale appearance which is why GP provided them. Frankly, I don't like having to mess with wires when assembling at the field. But, if anyone feels that this addition makes your end product better over another then go for it.

Can't wait to see the in flight pictures of the new birds.
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Old 10-09-2004, 02:47 PM
  #64  
Dave G
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Got a couple of flights in this morning, and for the 1st time got some in-flight shots with the smoke system running. Sorry the images are grainy. But the good news (other than a non eventful deadstick was the new Rexlace flying wires held up just fine for these flights. I was a little concerned the plastic would stretch, but it didn't at all.

These shots were from my wife's Nikon and a telephoto lens. I got a primer course on using it since she wouldn't come and be my photographer. Hopefully, a video is still in the works. For now, these'll do!


rfw, Thanks for speaking up.
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Old 10-09-2004, 06:18 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

bird, It was directed at more than just you, I didn't feel like listing all the people that think the FW's are functional or should be. And its not about being right or winning a 'pissing' contest, its about education and putting out the right information. If you guys really want functional FW's, you are going to need to reinforce the ribs with plywood, screw plywood blocks to the reinforced ribs, then you will need probably 4-40 wire and some heavy duty clevis'.
How is a wing failure going to cause the plane to hit someone or fly into the pits if its being flown in the correct area of the field? We aren't talking radio failure. Some of your original comments point out structural failure and hitting people.
As for the crimps, no the wire will not come completely out but it will pull on the loop pulling the clevis against the crimp effectively lengthening the wire and now your saved wing is flopping in the breeze making the plane uncontrollable. I have pulled the wire through and when I applied more squeeze to the tube, it either split or got a stress fracture.
As for the engine coming lose, read through some of the other Pitts threads, several people have had to reinforce the bulkhead, granted they had bigger than needed engines, but the stress caused problems. I was doing maintenance on mine and just happened to notice that the front sides of the fuse moved when touched. Found that half the balsa had come unglued from the bulkhead and one of the hardwood longerons had come unglued from the bulkhead. Another guy at the field notice the covering on his didn't look right, when he got the cowl off he found that the bulkhead was only being held on by the four hardwood longerons. SO check your bulkhead everyone.

BATTER UP!
Old 10-09-2004, 09:05 PM
  #66  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

NavyE6FE - you and I have exchanged post in the past. I remember those early post about the firewall coming lose. This was a real problem with the early production runs, especially with gas engines. I found the balsa on mine had gaps you could see a light through right out of the box. I added tristock inside the fuse to the firewall and inside and outside of the mounting box as well. I then pinned the firewall and then added fiberglass cloth with finish epoxy for resin. You may recall that I lost Pitts-1 in a horrific crash which also cost me the Fuji-50. The firewall held though. Maybe the engine might have survived had I not made the firewall so strong, but I didn't want the engine coming lose from vibration.

I did the same on Pitts-II and all is holding tight and snug.

Pictures below show the firewall with the added tristock I did on both Pitts-1 and Pitts-II. Pitts-I went in, but the firewall held. Replaced the engine with a DA-50 on Pitts-II.
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Old 10-09-2004, 09:27 PM
  #67  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

rfw, mine is the updated version, not sure what version the other one at the field is. From the looks of it, they use some type of hot glue, not sure though. They definitely don't build them like I would with epoxy and reinforcement in critical areas. Haven't seen much of the CE II having this problem.
What muffler do you have on the DA? A friend in the club has a DA50, but has problems keeping the bolts tight and I think on his the bolt heads are recessed in the muffler.
Old 10-09-2004, 10:15 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Ok Guys!

I looked at your addresses and determined that none of you are very far from Phoenix, AZ, so why don't you-all load up your Pitts and come on over this January or February for a GP Pitts fly-in? The temps should be around 65 to 75 during the days then with sunny skies. [8D] My club has a 70' x 700' blacktop runway with plenty of shade. I can just imagine 5 GP Pitts in the air at once...
Old 10-09-2004, 10:41 PM
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Navy, sorry for getting my hackles up. I guess the FW issue is a dead horse and has been beaten enough. I have a feeling that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the issue.
I really enjoy discussing the pitts and have gotten quite a few good hints and heads ups from it. The fire wall problems you mentioned are worth keeping an eye on indeed. One of the things I have found works quite well even though I didn't do it on my Pitts is to drill the appropriate size hole for the model along the edge of the fire wall so that it touches the side sheeting and then drill it back one or two bulkheads. Lay in a dowel and glue it in. I use to repair E-Z ARF's with bamboo squires then I would epoxy them to the skin that was seperating from the bulkheads. It sure makes a ridgid area. Keeps the firewall connected too.
Well, anyway, I made flight # 12 today and sustained my first fatality. It was quite windy, in fact, the wind was circulating and it was kicking the Pitts around. I came in for a landing and was too low and it was all over the place. I clipped the edge row of grass at the edge of the field and cought the wheel pants and clipped about 1 1/2 inches off of my 24 inch prop! That is all of the damage I had. It sure scared me. Only problem is that I don't have a back up prop. I think I will get a 22X6-10 and see if it turns up any.
Navy, have a great day. I will keep it friendly from now on. Thanx. bird.
Old 10-09-2004, 10:44 PM
  #70  
bigbird3
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Jake, since when is Vermont not too far from Arizona? Have you figured out how to time warp? hehe! Wish I could come out. It would be a blast. bird.
Old 10-10-2004, 05:11 PM
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rfw1953
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

NavyE6FE -I originally thought the stock muffler would work, thus the notch in the firewall, but then learned the barrel made contact with the cowling, which I didn't like after I cut the cowling as well. I then ordered a Slimline Pitts muffler from DA for about 136.00. I also ordered a new cowling, arrgh! No problems with the socket head screws coming lose and the muffler fits nicely in the cowling without cutting. You will notice a fuel valve in one of the photos. I have since replaced this with a fuel dot after the fuel valve developed an air leak. Many had warned me about this, but I had never had any problems with them until I tried one on a Gas engine. I suspect that vibration wears out the seal causing the leak. I had a DS as a result of this which is when I learned how challenging a DS can be on this bird at 17+ lbs.

Both Pitt-I and Pitts-II are the updated models, but I still reinforced the firewall in using a gas engine. I have found that regardless of which gas engine you use, vibration really causes things to loosen up. The screws holding the Cabbane and interplane struts need to be checked frequently to be safe.

rcjake-RCU - Arizona??? Man, that would be a haul from N. Al. I will pass on this one, but sure would like to see some photos of a Pitts Fly-in. bet it will be a fun event.
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Old 10-12-2004, 03:56 PM
  #72  
Goldwing-RCU
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Roger,
Hope you remember me, it was so long ago that you helped me with my Pitts but after a year I finally got her up this last Saturday. It took off without any issues but the dreaded bouncy bouncy on the landing was sure an issue. I was glad I had a pro at the stick and not me! On the second flight I lost the muffler (bummer) (Even had it lock tight and lock washered!) and just as the main gear touched the mufffler that had been lodged in the cowl popped out and nicked the side and horizontal stablizer. (A little patching to do)

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks

Sheldon
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Old 10-12-2004, 04:03 PM
  #73  
Goldwing-RCU
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Oh, I forgot to say if you look at my previous post in the lower left corner you will see the muffler doing it's thing! I'll wire it on next time!

Sheldon
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Old 10-13-2004, 12:19 AM
  #74  
bigbird3
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Goldwing, nice looking pitts. Looks like mine! hehe! Tell your friend that is flying it to flair it on landing and it will put an end to the bouncy bouncy. It has not bad habbits or wing dropping. bird.
Here are a few pix of nine. It has an OS 320 with a 24X10-6.
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Old 10-14-2004, 08:40 PM
  #75  
rfw1953
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Default RE: GP 1/3 Pitts arf

Sheldon,

You are most welcome and I do remember you. Glad to have passed along what has been shared with me. Your Pitts looks great. You can't help but really like this bird. Sorry to hear about the muffler coming lose and biting in the process. It's always something. I to had a more experienced pilot do the maiden flight on mine. Nothing wrong with having the best pilot you can find on the controls until your confident to give it a whirl. I honestly was pretty nervous on this one myself, and also wanted to take pictures so I could enjoy just watching it for a few minutes before taking the sticks myself. After doing so I found it to be pretty gentle, though take-offs took a little while to get the feel for the rudder and throttle. I have it down pretty good now. Landing has never really been much of an issue. I have found that coming in on the hot side seems to help set up for the flare just before touch down. Landing on grass sure makes this easier as well. Have fun and thanks for the update.

Let us know how you solve the muffler dilemma and keep those in flight shots coming.

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