Alf

If you have the skills to fly that T-6 you will have no problems with the Staggerwing: especially flying off grass. My field is asphalt, so my left hand is very busy, landing and take off

Beautiful T-6 and very realistic flight.


Denis

Hi everyone, just so you know I'm almost ready to start assembling my SW, after many forums where everyone needs a lot of weight on the nose to balance, I will install a G'38. It is so heavy that I am not going to to add more weight, my only complaint is that the exhaust is back and will I need to cut the fire wall to install the muffler.

Anyone which can help me with the cowling diameter?

When you get home at night I'm going to measure it

I've only got a couple of hundred hours of full scale time, almost all of it in taildraggers, 150+ in a J-3 that we had on the farm. I've been around Staggerwings a lot and have 4.5 hours in a "D" model. I've been told that the Staggerwing (AKA "Staggerbeech" or, depending on how your landing/maintenance isues are going, sometimes called the "Stagger*****") is really difficult to three-point because while the bottom wing stalls first, the top wing keeps flying, so the airplane's very hard to full-stall, which is what you do when you three point land. I've only logged 8 landings in one and each was a wheel landing. Never got close to three-pointing it. And come to think of it, I can't ever recall seeing someone three-point one. I'm sure people do, I just never have seen it. I'm attaching a few pics from the Fall flyin at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum in Tullahoma TN; if you ever get the chance to go, I'd recommend you do! One Saturday morning a few years ago, between the Twin Beeches and Staggerwings, I counted 60+ round engines running at once!
I sure agree w/ the advice above: USE THE RUDDER!!!
Best
Al

Al great to hear from you again: Staggerbeech thats funny !!!!!! WOW having time in the full size I'n impressed. I have very little time in "High Performance" Mines been " J-3 Aeronca Champ Stinson Cessna 170. Your spot on with the "wheel Landing" I have several that I only wheel, the Staggerwing as well as a Waco UPF-7. Curtis Hawk, mostly due to the short nose moment.

Unfortunately about 95 % at my club have no idea what a wheel landing nor the interest in learning. They can be a bit tricky when first learning, but just a little practice ya got it. Looks good to:

I would so love to instruct in scale flight realms but I just find no interest:

Thanks for that post there may be hope

Denis

The RC club I use to be a member of is having a flying in at the museum. www.MTRCS.com or www.mtrcca.org . They will be flying friday 30th and Saturday 1st.

I also have full scale time, in the right seat, but have done lots of take-offs and landings. I also use the rudder, a lot. What I was getting at about the tip stall on my Staggerwing, is the very sudden, very violent, and very unannounced, (especially since I am not sitting in the seat,) dropping of a wingtip, which, in every account of it's happening in full scale, that I have read, it is called a tip stall.

I am also an R/C instructor, with 30+ years experience, and do teach rudder use, as well as trying to teach scale like flying, but most of the guys just aren't interested in continueing the practice/use of the rudder once they are turned loose. So, some of them still crash, usually because they didn't use rudder instead of aileron, causing the drag to spin, NOT a tip stall. My favorite type of flying is scale like, warbird, classics, etc. My second large R/C was a Sig 1/4 scale Clipped Wing Cub, powered with the OS 160 FT. Flew it for over 8 years until it was mid-aired during a big meet when we had 14 1/4 scale cubs in the air at the same time, and one of the others went out of control and left the pattern to come under mine and suddenly climb up and cut my tail nearly off. Hazel Sig had flown mine once at one of the Father's Day meets at the Sig Field. I usually wheel landed it, because it's a prettier landing than a three point. I have never tried to three point the Staggerwing, the problem is our field layout, it is in a "bowl", and creates a "dead air" space about 2-3 feet off the runway, where the model just either "falls" thru it, or won't slow down to settle smoothly. Most all of our pilots have the problem. The couple rotor heads in our club really feel it, also. NOT talking about the "ground effect" point, either.

Alf, saw your videos, including the Waco with the OS 160 Twin, and your Top Flight giant P-40. You shouldn't have any real trouble with the Staggerwing. Your flying field is beautiful. Great flying on those, by the way.
The cowl is slightly tapered, but at the approximate point the engine head(s) would be is very close to 9 inches, or 230mm. The OS 160 twin fits comfortably.

Al, I've seen a couple of those Staggerwings, also. I did see, and talk to the owner of the green/red NC80309 G17 at Oshkosh this year. I want to redo mine in that scheme.

Denis, I switch back and forth between wheel landing and three pointing my Curtiss P-6E, Waco YMF-5, and Ryan STA-M, as well as my little E-Flite PT-17e. My Black Horse 90 size P-40 only gets wheel landings, as well as my VQ P-51. I have not had any pure "goof around" models in my hanger for years. I did take a few years away from fixed wing to learn helcopters, but never got into the 3D stuff, because my free learning time changed/disappeared just when I was ready to start learning it. Then my eyes couldn't keep up with the orientation any more, so went back to total fixed wing about 5-6 years ago.

My fleet that I took out the last time I went flying, Sept 3rd. Those are all electric powered.

Denis
Good to hear from you, too.
Trying to teach rudder useage to someone who's learned on a trike trainer where only the ailerons are used is a thankless task. I bet I've seen half a dozen of the H9 80" Cubs lost on takeoff because they're off the ground a little too soon, drop a wing, and the pilot doesn't (know how to)use the rudder. Guess that's why the wing tubes for those are on constant backorder....

Staggerflyer
I have an extra TF Staggering that I picked uo last year, only partially built. I want to refinish that one like the yellow "G" in the first two pics I posted above.

Keep those wings level, guys!

Al

This is why we build, instead of buying BARF'S. The builder controls the outcome. Also please do not call assembing a Barf,as building a kit or plans.

I totally agrees with barfs, they are not built.

But I have also seen a lot of builds that not even looks or flies good after many many hours...
And have often seen good builders with great models and big lack of flying time.

I do have a Byron original which shall be build later but in the waitingperiod I will assemble this one.

I really like it in the yellow scheme so I guess I will strip it down and add some Monocoat and paint

Good lord where is this build thread going: not sure is was really a build thread as the (Staggerbeech) is a barf. I actually vowed I would never own an ARF but life is too short to build all the aircraft I want: So I have the staggerwing and the Curtis Hawk P 6E.

Scratch building a Fairchild 24R as we speek build thread is on R.C. Scale Builder

Denis

off to the flying field its only gonna be 101 deg today

I guess I don't agree with the "BARF" name. As one who prefers to fly, rather than build, especially as a forced vocation change completely eliminated my building time, I like the wide availability and variety of ARFs. 60-70 hours AVERAGE a week doesn't leave much "building" time. It takes me an average of 4-6 months to "assemble" my ARFs. (Another reason I've gone pure electric.) The modern ARF is nothing like the BARFs of old. (Laniers)

My next plane will be a kit build. I am figuring it probably won't fly for a couple years, just because it will take me so long. (Ziroli D-18/C-45 Twin Beech.) If it was available as an ARF, I'd buy it.

Yes, my long time experience with kits does allow me to fix problems somewhat, when discovered, as well as crash repairs, which someone who has only assmbled arfs does not posess. Sometimes explaining some of the fixes to some of our newer members takes a while, as they don't know the techniques.

I've seen many kit built models that never should have seen the light of day, as well, so it's all relative.

Supposed to be nice flying weather tomorrow. I'm taking the day off from work, to get my first flying day of October in. Was only able to get out once in September.

Hope I didn't come off as bashing ARF. they certainly have their place. There;s a bunch of people that dont enjoy building: holy moley if ya dont enjoy it dont do it !!!

D-18 woah: what a choice I'd love to do one of those. Flew right seat in one, didnt get a chance to fly it as I was way to busy cranking on the "wobble" pump as the fuel pump was not working.

Ferry flight to the owners home airport, had a ferry permit, just saying as I dont want you to think I would get in just any plane with no fuel pump.


Denis

No no, Denis. I know you weren't bashing the ARFs.

Wish I could get some rides in some of the aircraft we're talking about, too. I try to get to some of the shows, when I can, but the group I run around with has mostly single seat aircraft, mostly homebuilts. We do rent the local Piper or Cessna occasionally, (which is when I get to fly it sometimes.) I had an ultralight, Quick Silver MX, but had to sell it many years ago.

My dad was a pilot, but separated from my mom when I was young. I still managed to keep aircraft in my hobbies thru-out my life. As well as cars/trucks. I was a mechanic for most of my life, a truck driver now. It's just that our small community doesn't have many aircraft in it.

Got my model today. The frame was pretty heavy. I really don't know why they did use that lot wood inside the body on such a strong fiberglass body. I was thinking of assembly it quick now and then strip it through the winter and make it yellow, but I think I will start shedding of weight now and do it lighter from the very beginning...

Hello-all, I just acquired a Byron Originals Staggerwing, that is built and flown in the past. I was wondering if anyone had the instructions/manuals. I want to go over this airplane to check everything out, and the instructions would be most helpful. I would be willing to reimberse any copy/mailing charges.
Thanks!!

Is this yellow color the correct one?
http://www.greatplanes.com/airplanes/gpma1295.html

affas, I have that model also, and love it! Mine is electric powered.

No, it's Cub Yellow on the model, but for a reason. The correct Waco yellow is not available in the Monokote line, which is the covering brand owned by the parent company that owns Great Planes.

FYI. I visited the Waco Classics booth at Oshkosh EAA Air Venture this year, where they had a 1:1 fullsize Waco Classic there, in this yellow scheme, as well as talked to them about it. The true Waco Yellow is a copyrighted color, which is specially mixed for the Waco Classic company. It is very close to Cub Yellow, but more orange. My eyes could not truly see the difference until we laid a piece of the monokote on the Waco. (I had a piece with me.) The gentleman I talked to, (Can't remember his name,) said that a group from the factory who also fly R/C, including himself, had just completed the build/assy of their first one of the Great Planes Waco. They had just enough time to fly it once before having to prepare for the trip to Oshkosh, and loved the model. They licensed the model, knowing it would be done in Cub Yellow, again due to the fact Waco Yellow was not available.

If anyone is going to turn down this model just because of the color, you're doing yourself a disfavor. You can always repaint/recover it, if you can find the proper color, or do it in a different color scheme altogether.

Just my .02 cents worth.
Don

A couple shots of the real one taken with my phone, as well as my model, also taken with my phone.

Well, this past weekend's flying session was not all good for me. My Staggerwing suffered another bad crash. Gonna need another set of wings. No fuselage/tail damage. Small cracks in cowling from twisting moments, motor mount bent, but prop no damaged! No damage to retracts!!!!!!

Was doing a low level, high speed pass down runway, and just as it reached the end of runway, it suddenly quit. (Electric powered!!) Acted like it had hit low voltage cutoff, which I have set to hard, which requires throttle to idle, then back up to reset. But apparently not, as it would not restart. Instead of exchanging energy for altitude, which is proper procedure in high speed engine failure, i attempted "S" turn to return to runway for landing. I also, incorrectly, lowered landing gear almost immediately. DUMB!! [:@] This model does NOT glide well! Ended up hitting the ditch that runs along our access road along the edge of the dike that forms the north edge of our field. It missed clearing the ditch by less than two feet distantance, and about 8 inches altitude. (The ditch is a little over one foot deep.)

I tested batteries after crash, and they tested 98%. The cutout/crash occured just 1 1/2 minutes into flight. Pulled flight log from the Eagle Tree logger when I got home, and it showed that total voltage suddenly dropped to 5 volts, then returned to over 22 volts just before impact, which unplugged power leads because battery tray slid forward when velcro tap tore from mounting. Running 10 cells, 2X51P Impulse 4800mah 20C batteries. 42 volts fully charged. I flew them out in my Waco with no problem, so don't know what happened. Amp draw during high speed pass just before cutout was 65.10 amps. Motor specs for amps are 60 map continueos, 78 amp burst, batteries rated at 92 amp continueos. My logger set to record at 2 times per second. Drop off to zero occured in 1 full second. Voltage went back to 61 for one second, then back down to 5 volts over 3 seconds. Amp draw remained at less than one amp, since hrottle was closed. Need to do ground draw test of the Staggerwing system for more info. Logger is wired in between batteries and ESC, so it gets full info first.

Otherwise, it was a great flying weekend, four other aircraft all had good, multiple flights. [&:]

all I can say is wow!!! Yeah it looks like you only need new wings.

Yes, primarily a set of wings. Since I now have two sets of damaged wings, I should be able to get a good rib template, and maybe draw a decent wing plan. But it's going to be the "want to" factor that determines when it will get done. Since this is the third crash for this airframe, I'm not going to be in any hurry, I'm afraid. I don't plan on destroying it, but it will be sometime before I even think about fixing it. I have four other "fixable" wrecks standing in the corner now. All of them may/will be fixed "someday."

You guys enjoy your Staggerwings. I'll check in occasionally to see how things are going. Even tho' mine is out of commission, it's still one of my favorites.

Oh, and in case anybody is wondering, there is no way this crash can be blamed on the airframe, it was the power system, followed by pilot error due to not following proper procedures. Full scale emergency procedures also apply to our models in 99% of cases. Trouble is, we don't practice them!! This is what happens. Guess what I'm going to try to do now in my flying day. I do have another high speed, high wing loaded, complex system aircraft, my ASM F7F tigercat twin. Weighs the same, 21.5 lbs, actually a touch slower, 86 v 95 mph, with flaps and retracts. A good model to practice emergencies. (One of the best things about electrics, usually, lol.)

Sorry to hear that......
Although I do not mean any ill feelings about what happened, I find it irritating that many electric guys think that electric means "NEVER A power loss" AKA... engine quit....

I think that is mainly because they are flying smaller models or a model with a very low wing loading....THis plane is a entirely differet animal...

Where are you going to get a wing set from???

If you read back quite a few posts.... I posted detailed measuments of the cowling... as I have a radial engine to fit in it....

The main issue I have is the tapper of the cowl.. and that it get very small at the exit..

kochj
Thanks. No offense taken. I know what you mean, and it is true to a point. "Never say never" is always correct. It's just that a power loss is much more unexpected, we get complacent. But you're also right about the bigger ones, different animals.

Don't know where wing set coming from, if I'm even going to try for a set. Not searching right now. No spare change in the kitty.

Have plenty of other aircraft still flying, with not much flying weather/time left this season, so will concentrate on keeping them in one piece. You do the same!