I really didn't intend for what I said to come across as being racist. If you truly and actually took my statements as being so, and not just being a knee jerk reaction, then I am truly sorry, and herewith tender my apologies.

Actually, if you will go back and look, I have many times offered help, aid and assistance to all who wanted it. As to my feelings that the models that I build (which are the only ones that I can speak to) being superior to ARF's, I can't and won't apologize for feeling that they are superior. I build strong, light and straight. Having models that have in excess of 1000 documented flights should stand as proof of that. I don't sell any of my old planes, but rather make outright gifts of them, and I can show you one that is still flying after 14 years of service. I don't see many ready built planes that will come close to that. These are planes that are flown to the limit of the envelope and regularly.

As before, I would just like to see the new guys get an even break.

Bill, AMA 4720

Could ya be kind enough to tell me where this trash barrel is?

Stick , I am in the builders post , warbird forum , rcwarbirds.com, jet forum ect, I dont put up walls , its one rc brotherhood and most of the people I know that are respected master builders given the title by the RC community and not self appointed are the most open minded skilled craftsman you would even want to meet . In addition they fly ARfs, bash arfs , scratch build and build from kits ,and know whats even better , there just happy people not looking to make raciest remarks on where a plane was built , or the philoshy of why people build ect ect .
As stated , and in your words "its a free country " so go ahead and be nagative , but you can add more with positive suggestions and your experience about how to fix arfs or a check list ect then simply wanting to bash the arfs forum

Geez, you guys are really something! Racist? Nagative (negative)? Self appointed? Y'all just can't handle the truth, can you? It's a free country, so you are free to be close minded and self protective. Enjoy whatever it is you are doing.

truth ??? can handle lol ??? thanks for making my point lol

Ditto............

i thought this was about a airplane not arf vs stick. stick we all know you are a builder so am I but i like arfs also and some are really nice. you do try to inflame things.

Hey TT, I think some guys like to in- sta- gate !!!!!!!! I think I, for one am ignoreing this thread. See ya !!!

I've only owned one H-9 plane, not a warbird, and it is an okay plane, quality-wise.But I have rebuilt about half the airframe over the three years I've had it. Not from crashes, or almost crashes, but from general wear-and -tear that my similar, and kit-built, plane has not suffered from much the same kind of flying.

What was experienced by the owner of the P-40 in question isn't typical of H-9, but could happen with most any ARF on the market, as the engineering of these planes is geared toward 1: light weight for the overall size, 2:simplicity of construction for whomever is on the assembly line, and 3: cheap enough to assure a really good profit margin after the assembler gets paid next to nothing, and the distributor and retailer get their considerably greater share of the sale price.

Unfortunately, durability suffers. If everyone could fly like Greg Hahn or Mac Hodges, or QuiQue and grease the thing in on every landing, it might last a bit longer in its out-of-the-box assembly. But I think most pilots are closer to my end of the pilot curve, and unless it is reinforced from the get-go, the typical ARFisn't going to last all that long without constant patching-up.

This isn't to say that the same thing can't happen to any plans-built, kit-built, or scratch-built model, but I am convinced that it is much less likely to happen. The builder who invests the time and effort to create his own plane is usually knowledgeable and skilled enough to avoid the pitfalls common in ARF construction. he isn't trying to build three or four of them a day, is less concerned in having a super-light model, opting for a more robust and durable plane, and he doesn't have to have it tomorrow, so he is willing to take the pains to build it right.

Those who opt for ARF's over kits have decided on the quicker route, usually the less expensive route (than building one like the ARF they bought), or just don't feel they have the skills to build it. Nothing wrong with that at all, but be ready to put up with quality and durability less than what you'd be likely to get in something not mass produced.

I think ARF's have opened the door to some who are capable of becoming technically adept at most phases of the hobby without having to become builders, but has also made the hobby available to those who'd be better served doing needlepoint.

I know that last line will create a stir, but just take a look in some of the forums where you'd expect to find questions and replies that suggest a grasp of the fundamentals, but instead lead you to be happy you don't share the flying field with that particular person.

As far as your P-40 goes, whoever said "box up the remains and send to Horizon" probably has the best solution. If truly a mfg defect, they'll make it right.

Khodges excellant post , all around dead on and very accurate and on subject !

Dang it, WHERE IS THE TRASH BARREL?

I checked it this weekend, and it's empty (except for a couple of broken props, and 4 empty Morgan's 15% jugs.

Bill, AMA 4720

Stick has it right folks the producers of the ARF'S are the ones the should be accountable. You expect to get a plane that when you follow the build instructions it should be an air worthy plane without having to add glue, epoxy, change hardware, or anything but do it as per the manuel. If we keep letting the manufacters get away with inferior products the more and more inferior they will become. You should not have to inspect an ARF for anything but handeling damage that might occur. Other than that you should be able to build them and fly them with confidence. I have spent tons of money on ARF'S and not had to do anything to them. Never had one come apart. They should even start fuel proofing them. I do look at stuff as some things could get overlooked. But that should be one in every thousand or so. Let's not forget we are paying for ARF's not KITS. IF you have a problem with some area on your ARF that is not correct then you should quickly call the manufactuer or company you got it from and complain loudly, quickly, and let them know we as customers are not going to stand for inferior products. That is what quality control is supposed to be for. Again Stick i don't agree with alot of your posts about KITS over ARF'S but this time your right on the nose.

I still say there should be a sticky on this matter. Why ignore it? If what you's are saying is indeed true then lets help fix the problem instead of feeding it. If there are weak spots why not tell others? I mean what good does sitting here and complaining do? Why not help fix the problem?

I have this plane I have noticed with high G turns there is a little flex in the wings, I would say to anyone assembling this plane just make sure there is plenty of adhesive in the center section around the wing joiner,and center wing ribs and spar,inspect the joiner to see if it has any obvious defects its a easy part to reproduce with stronger wood or order another from Horizon.
I have really cranked mine around with no adverse affects, the plane is a easy flyer, light,and looks good in the air,the firewall seems fine with tri stock and plenty of glue,I did use some thin CA around the fuse formers in a couple of spots, since they looked a little light on adhesive,other than that nothing much else,its also taken some abuse on landings since it was my first sport/warbird the only thing that was dammaged was the cowl and mabee my pride.
as for replacement gear if I was to do that modification I would want to redo the mounting rails there light and really intended for the light weight gear that are provided, I fly off a smooth surface so they have served me well enough,if I flew off grass I might consider replacing them,the Lado electric models look interesting.
as of this posting I have been working on a semi scratch build FW190A8 ,I have also built several kits over the years,which doesn't qualify my as a so called expert but I would have to disagree with calling this model Junk, comparing it to a kit is a unfair judgement,but if you stand it side by side to many of the ARF's it holds it's own in looks as well as flying ability.
it seems to me alot of the time flight failure comes from slopy assembly and inspection,it seems that quite a few assemblers throw these planes together, not taking the time to look the plane over to make sure everything is tight and flight ready,and making periodic inspections to insure the plane hasn't suffered any stresses over the life of the plane,even kit built models need this to be done,no matter how well built.

Well while you guys battle it out, here's my take on the P40. My first one was junk.......

didn't hold up to a oh, 75 mph nose first landing at all.

Number two is still a question mark as I haven't had time to try the same type of landing. But take offs and flight seem just fine.


And ARF is in the eye of the beholder, or the Mfg. I've had $100.00 ARF's that have put my $700.00 to $800.00 dollar versions, construction/ quality wise to shame.

And just to keep Stick going, just cause it's a home built doesn't mean it's going to be better, the same or even worse then a store bought.

Each has their place in the hobby. And we would be so much further ahead if we could learn to except our differences, and promote what we are all here for.

WOW, this is almost like the AMA threads.

My post/s were not intended to be or to become an ARF vs Build issue. Nowhere did I allude that all ARF's were junk, or even marginal. What I did say was that you guys who choose the ARF models should be getting exactly what you are paying for, and that one should be able to expect to have a successful model if the instructions were followed. The battle lines were drawn by you guys. I still think that if a model needs reinforcement at the firewall, the gear blocks, and needs the wing center glassed, then the instruction manual should so state. Not everyone has the benefit of experience to know these things. With the recent growth of the hobby, you can bet that there are those out there who have never been exposed to the hobby before, and there are lots of people teaching others to fly who have never built a stick built kit. Some of these guys don't know better either. If you are happy with what the manufacturers and distributors are peddling, then all is great. I am going to bat for the guys who don't know.

Bill, AMA 4720

The post on fixing the problem is a great post .I have one of the first Hanger 9 corsairs , this site was the reason I would still have it if not lost to pilot error mine lol . I glassed the firewall , wing spar area near the retracts , and followed the great post that recapped all the problems in 10 simple points from CG to engine size . There are two very long post on the corsair one is the assembley version withe hints , the other is the complaining version , funny thing is that horizon is first class as stated before , so you dont even have to shout , just call them , there modelers at hart .

As far as getting what you pay for , in this hobby with the exception of engines and radios , I have seen extremes on both ends . I bought a cheap P40 on ebay from Toyneer (still active ) its ugly but for $95 plus shipping I paid $139 . I thought it has potential , some paint , some top flight plastic parts ect and I can have a beater that looks good for those not so nice days .
Well all I can tell you is that for $139 , and some mods (that I love to do ) the guys at my field have ecah orderd one after they have flown mine .
On the other hand =one guy paid $450 for the skyshark P40 arf , wing came off at the fuse incert , and he lost the plane , so its really buyer beware and as stated before unless you build from scratch most modelers know that kits are flooded with problems that most builders fix .
My next kit will be my Platt Fw190dora , after looking in the box and the plans , I might as well scracth build my own plane .

Again as some of the most elequent post have stated , its also about experinece and this site has so many excellant rc modelers that are loaded with tips -all you have to do is ask before you fly

this is a picture of the ugly baby , some top flight paint , chucked the cheap rotators , added 615 robarts , added parts to the cowl , wing and rear windows , a little tlc on the panel lines and some weathering .
Counter balances in a thick -air foil tail (took all of 5 mins to cut the counter balances in the tail) and wala , stevie wonder scale P40 but so fun to fly and much better to me then a simple cup on a windy day all for $139 .
The guys selling raised his price to somewhere in the area of $139 but you can still bid and get one cheap ...

Great looking plane. I was just reading through several posts here in this forum, and most tell of the same problems. Why you guys don't demand better is beyond me.

Bill, AMA 4720

To the OP. Sorry for your loss. I am sure if you call Horizon that they will make a effort to help you out. I too work for a living and don't have the time to build these models anymore, so I by the ARF's also. There is nothing wrong with an ARF, most of them out there are probably build better then I could myself. But, one piece of advice that I can give you is this. Take into consideration that these Models are made in a factory setting, and mistakes will me made, the builders are only human. It is always a good idea to inspect the Model and go over all the joints with some thick CA. I read that problems with ARF's might discourage a new person that is trying to break into the Hobby. It is the Club and Instructor's responsibility to be sure these precautions have been taken.

Stick , thanks , its a cheapy but I felt it had some potentail .
I think your post make a great point when you said "the manufactuer should state the steps needed to be taken to make the model safe "
The scary part is I have personally read and seen some of the issues and when there not corrected there scary .
1)CMP 73" P40 , the spinner wont take the pressure of a big 4 stroke , it will shatter on you and in your face-should simply be left off the plane
2)There was a very popular German Arf warplane sold for $200 on ebay , tail comes off in flight , I think one was flown in warbirds over Deleware last year .
I dont want to bore everyone , but any model useing glow fuel really needs the suppliers and the guys on RCU to make sure we spread the word on tips for safety .

Mr. Bill or Stick or whatever,

As I read through this thread it is pretty doggone apparent that YOU have no desire to help others in our hobby. IF you did you would point out the possible "structural deficiencies" of the typical ARF from your standpoint as a scratch builder to those that purchase the things.

Thats my .02

Rube

Congratulations StickBuilder! You've done it again. Taken a perfectly civil thread and turned it into a Builders vs. Arfers hack fest. What you did say...yes I read your comments was that you were worried about the ARF manufacturers driving off first timers in this hobby. You don't need to worry about that. In reality the ARF companies bring far more people into this hobby because of the easy building kits and very good quality planes and very good flying planes. You are just on a self serving mission to prove yourself better than the ARF guys.

As you know, I'm an ARF guy and proud of it. I came to the hobby because the ARFs provided a decent plane at a decent price. I cannot.... or don't want to build a plane at this time in my life. Doesn't make me a bad hobbiest. I just like to ARF and fly.

Go back to your builders cave and don't worry about protecting us ARFers. We don't need your protection.

The natural competion between ARF manufacturers will improve the ARF. If you don't think so...just look at the improvements in the last 10 years. ARFs get better with every model and with every manufacturer. The improvements are coming and the hobby is better for it. Some companies can't make it and they are eliminated by the market. What you say or don't won't make a peck of difference.

Your comments are inflamitory, rude, insulting and raciest. Too bad you don't think before you write. This type of comment will drive more people away then you will ever help.

Too bad.

Barry