Bozarth

My Feedback: (15)

I agree with your mindset, but dues shouldn't "theoretically" cover it (unless the club is in agreement). I am a member of two clubs, and I don't think my dues are there to subsidize the newbies. I am also not in favor of having AMA subsidize them either - I simply need insurance.

One of the clubs I am a member of just relocated and is installing a new runway. Our dues are covering the runway costs - nothing more. We provide free instruction, but it is because of the generosity of volunteering club members, not subsidies.

Kurt

GBLynden

With all due respect, Chuck owned you hard. You are clearly stuck in the past and see what you want to see. Stop runing down a proven approach. Better yet, actually fly some of the planes I mentioned in the OP and then come back and comment. I understand that you have seen 100's if not 1,000's of planes come and go over your years of flying, however things have changed quite a bit in just the last two years, much less the last 20 (or however many you have been flying). The reality is that you CAN teach yourself to fly and it is a decent way to succeed.

To those that think I am pushing or selling anything, I am not. I am also not associated with anything in the RC industry in any way, shape, or form. Chuck and I simply want to show another "option" on this forum that isn't talked about much. Forums are for free thinking and exchanges of ideas. Let that process happen, please.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Are you guys trying to make work for me and other moderators? What happened to the original subject of this thread?

I suggest you all swallow some of that pride, step down from the imaginary throne and get back on subject. I don't like pushing the delete button but could easily be convinced to do so.

CGr.
Moderator.

Chucksolo69

CGretired, how can the subject of the thread be continued when it is never given a chance and it is indeed just blasted to here and back? I believe that GBLynden has outlined a viable alternative to the old school approach based on his own experience. I would bet that there are thousands, if not millions of RC pilots world wide that have learned to fly on their own with no helpfrom aclub or instructor. Why is GBLynden's approach any less valid than the other opinions so forcefully expressed on this forum? That's what this is really all about.

t-max97

My Feedback: (9)

I think you absolutely can learn the way gb suggest's , but If you have the choice to learn on your own or get instruction I think instruction is the best way to learn overall and very possibly cheaper. But some people aren't interested in joining a club or flying anything other than a park flyer which is fine. Ive only been flying for a year but going to the club with other rc'ers is partly what makes it fun to me.

Chucksolo69

T-max, I totally agree with you and have recommended that newbies get instruction if they can and WANT to. As for flying with others in a club or informally, I completely agree there too. It is by far more fun to fly with other pilots who share the same interest. I belong to a formal club here in San Diego, and I belong to an informal club too. At the informal club we still fly the pattern and adhere to all AMA safety guidlines since we are all AMA members. We aren't as strict as my formal club, but we police ourselves pretty well.

So far, we are strictly electric because where we fly, we don't want to make a lot of noise. About half of our members have now begun to get into the larger balsa and ply models with the largest being about an 80" wingspan with a huge motor and battery. I am lucky to have found a mentor during the 8th month of my foray into this hobby and he has really helped me advance. I think we can all agree that while it is certainly possible to learn on your own, a little help along the way is always welcome.

opjose

Really hung up on that sexism huh? Not a good sign, get some help.

Now you're purposely taking things out of context for the sake of trying to bolster a poor arguement.

No one said that you have to buy an "expensive" plane. Heck you don't have to buy ANYTHING at all.

Many clubs let you fly their own trainer planes.

This lets the novice ease in and find out what they want to do in the long term without spending money on a quickly destroyed plane.

I certainly agree with the latter, worst still when this is done in public facilities, parks, school lots, etc. that draw crowds and the ire of residents.

Do-It-Yourselfers most often don't bother checking laws, regulations, etc.. Unless they own their own farms or larger properties, most of their flying attempts occur in proscribed areas.

YouTube is repleat with idiots trying to fly, off in-use country roads, etc.


Pretty funny, I doubt any "paid instructors" would bother to spend a moment here arguing with people. They are most likely to run away screaming for the ire they draw from the people here WHO BOTHER spending their time and effort trying to help others to succeed in the hobby.

No reasonable, experience and logical person would say many of the things you have, nor that do-it-yourself advice is reasonable and logical.

Anecdotal tales about your Champ are just that.


Which is why almost everyone says "find an instructor" so that newbies at the very least make the effort. Telling them otherwise is irresponsible.

Usually the very first thing said here by a newbie is "there is no local club" or "I cannot find an instructor". 3-4 minutes worth of effort later and we've found them both. They just don't know how to look nor where.

Telling them to "do-it-yourself" gives them the easiest path, like telling a teenager that it is OK to drive without a license... if they hear the latter, what do you think they will do?

And you should NOT have to "pay money" for someone to train you! Most clubs have volunteer members who do this for free. If not find another club.

Utter sophism...

There is no need of a "field large enough" nor "one of the larger planes".

Ever hear of buddy boxes with foamies?

That works too doesn't it?


I don't know where you get that. If an instructor is charging you, you should go elsewhere, unless you specifically want to go to one of those RC "schools" ( which I see no need for ).

Anecdotal again. It's great that you had good luck.

95% of the time the "do it yourselfer" ends up with a pile of debris and ends up giving up.

Due to their lack of experience and awareness, they violate laws, endanger others, and cast a bad light on the hobby.

Even only one or two sessions with an instructor is enough to prevent all of that.

Hundreds of thousands of proficient pilots trained over the years are not wrong...

Just MAY BE, the small inexperienced minority who advocates otherwise is!

Chucksolo69

I guess I must ask...................why do you keep saying "anecdotal again." If you want to get down to brass tacks, everything said on a web forum is anecdotal. Why don't you guys quit attacking each other and just take the original OPs intent and just go with it. It is as valid an opinion as yours opjose. Your's isn't the ONLY valid opinion is it?

opjose

No that is not true.

A single, or even a small sampling of situations does not equate to the "best approach" which is what we are talking about.

It is not - MY - opinion nor even an opinion, rather it is what years of experience, thousands of instructors and hundreds of thousands of new pilots have found to be the best approach.

"Best" does not mean "exclusive", however, when people are presented with options the path of least resistance is almost always selected and there-in lies the problem.

That is why we see dozens of people coming here every season and wanting justification for purchasing that slick new P-51 or other warbird as their very first plane.... Then they want to fly it in a local public park too.... sheez.

Tell them, it's ok, to "do-it-yourself" and they'll take the easy route. Not good.

Chucksolo69

Not necessarily true becasue Ifor one, and a lot of others, including GBLynden, would never advocate to a newbie that purshaing that slick new P-51 was in their best interest. And in fact, nowhere in his OP does he advocate that at all. That is where the argument that you and others falls apart. GB simply lists the most docile, newbie friendlyflying planes that he used when learning. Then he gets attacked and told he is completely wrong. It is your opinion and yes, thousands of others as well, but I can bet that there are just as many who don't share it. You make it sound like EVERY newbie is going to get a giant jet and go fly it in some public park somewhere. Let's get real here. For all your experience and knowledge, how can you even say that the "do-it-yourself" route is not good when that is how it ALLstarted to begin with. Back in the ealy days EVERYONE was pretty much self taught.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

This crap started just a page or two ago. It means that whatever you guys are pushing has just started.

I'll remind you guys one more time. Keep it civil or I'll lock it down and you can go to the Clubhouse and debate this over there.

I don't like giving alternatives, but I've seen threads get out of control like this before. Many of you preach that you are trying to help beginners, yet you come in with this stuff and give a definite signal to beginners that there is hostility here. What I see above is hostility not cooperation and assistance.

Take note that this is page 6 of this thread and it has gone along fairly smoothly until some of you decided to let your ego's take over. Cool down, get it together, and continue with the civility or I'll lock it down.

I can't be any more clear than that.

CGr

Chucksolo69

Ok, you'll see no more posts from me on this. But, just for the record, yours is the most hostile post on this thread. You didn't even flinch when jester called me  ignorant and such. I believe it's because you, like them think the same old way. So lock it down, it is your privilige to do so.

Bozarth

My Feedback: (15)

I understood moderators had the ability to lock thread downs, not taller or better soap boxes?

Kurt

jester_s1

See, you've proven my point with your own experience. Sure, a guy can learn on his own. I've never denied that. Given enough determination and deep enough pockets to replace broken equipment a guy can go as far as he wants to all on his own. But, and this is the point I've made all along, nearly everyone learns BETTER by getting help from a more experienced pilot. If one is available, there is no reason not to make use of it. I dare say that, given your own admission that your learning improved when you started getting some help, you would have spent less time and less money during those first 8 months if you had started out with an instructor instead of going it on your own.

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

My only real problem with the OP is that it was never mentioned to actually read up on how to fly an airplane. Too many people think it's ok to just go out with the knowledge that pull back it goes up, push forward it goes down, throttle up it goes faster, and throttle down it goes slower, etc... Bad habits develop quickly and are very difficult to get over especially when they see it as a problem with the radio or airframe. They see the plane do something different than what they told it to and it is a bad behavior of the plane or radio, to be fixed somehow. When they start experiencing those "bad behaviors" from planes they come on here trying to figure out how to make the plane stop doing that and suddenly they are being told its their poor piloting and feelings get hurt or it starts a war of words with others that may be as uninformed. What it comes down to is if you add "read up on the art of flying first" it will help improve their chances. That being said some of the knowledge on flying is counter intuitive and can confound some people and they may need some help with understanding it, but before they start flying is the time to do that as anecdotal knowledge from early uninformed flight experience can greatly interfere with that understanding. While the average person that will never get deeper than park flyers may not need any of this knowledge, if they eventually will get deeper into the hobby it will be a real disservice to them to convince them it is easy to DIY it.

jester_s1

There's the problems caused by bad piloting, and there are also the issues caused by improperly set up airplanes. Newbies don't know if the controls are too hot or the CG is wrong. It also doesn't help that most of the beginner grade park flyers are little more than powered gliders that can be cantankerous to actually exercise some control over. The Super Cubs and Champs are probably the best of the bunch, but that's not saying much. A plane that flies poorly teaches bad piloting, which in turn makes it that much harder to enjoy a good flying plane.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Oh, I flinched, alright. That, and other replies are what prompted me to invite myself into the thread.

My posts were intended to get your attention, which they obviously did. I don't get "hostile" about anything, but do get agressive when it comes to potential problems, and it's my job to see that things remain civil and stuff like that does not happen. Since I cannot monitor this 24/7, I do what I can when I can,as most moderators do. One or two moderators, other than me, have come in here and deleted posts that I missed. So, you can think what you want, I can't stop that.

For the record, you can post whatever you want here and I will not step in unless I have to. I could have deleted several posts here, including the one you mentioned, however, by doing so and not commenting on why would leave others to miss the point.

As I said, do what you want, post what you want, but I won't allow people to get on others case like what started a few pages ago regardless of the intent. I've seen stuff like this get extremely negative very quickly and don't want that to happen here. Constructive criticism is always welcome as long as it stays civil. Note what it says above the editing box in bold print "Please resist the urge to curse...." and so on. Note that I have not recommend banning anyone as it is my duty to do so if I feel it necessary.

Chucksolo69

Understood, thanks.

ATVAlliance

Thought about replying to this thread several times, but was always too busy to put enough thought into it till now.  So here goes...

Chucksolo69

Let me give you something to think about. Here in SoCal, there are fewer and fewer places that those large 30% gas planes are welcome to fly; mostly due to the noise. More and more of my local clubs, those in a 30 mile radius from me, are going mostly electric, and along with that, a lot of those are larger foamies 50" wingspan and larger. Yes, I know, rural clubs still are able to fly gas and glow, but they are getting fewer and fewer from my observations. So, for a lot of us, those "super cool" 30% or larger gas planes are very impractical. That is reality for us here inURBAN SoCal areas. It is a fact of life here when flying RC. Is it so hard now to understand why a large number of us in these urban areas are selft taught foamie fliers? Having that goal you mentioned simply isn't possible for some. Pesonally, Iwork 5 days a week and am lucky enough to have a club flying field 10 minutes from my work. I belong to this club and shortly I intend to take advantage and fly there after work. However, even this field is strictly electric so you can see the dilemma. On the weekends, I the last thing I want to do is commute down to where I work, so, I belong to an informal club that meets at a local flying site and we all fly electric, mostly foamies. So what works in W. Virginia, Texas, Arizona, etc., doesn't exactly work here in SoCal.

AMA 74894

My Feedback: (1)

ATVAlliance BRAVO.
you pretty well summed up what I've been thinking but not quite able to put into words.
Chucksolo69, your point is absolutely well taken, but you may want to understand that although that may be the way it is in SoCal, it is not necessarily the way it is everywhere.
(in the same manner, I'm making myself more aware that how it is here in Boondock, Minnesota is not the way it is everywhere either )

ssautter

Please do ....

ssautter

AMA and club dues should, theoretically, cover the cost of flight instruction....
Only for new members of both non-profit organizations. Not Intro Pilots.

Personally, I don't pay dues to go to meetings and swap meets. I pay dues tofly.
But, I don't expect any members dues to "subsidize" a student pilot's flight instruction. That was misread.

However, if I win another cheap high-wing foamie, in another godforsaken club raffle, the first thing I'm gonna do is donate it to a newbie!
The birds mentioned at the beginning of this thread, just don't appeal tome, anymore.

The recent AMA survey reminded me of the paid instructor status: http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/500-h.pdf
Different clubs warrant different instruction approaches, and some organizations have more than enough resources to help a beginner.

I know of a few clubs that have a "club trainer" airplane. But, I don't expect every club to pay for the airplane and volunteer for flight instruction.
What I meant wasevery beginner,who has paid AMA and club dues, should be give the benefit-of-the-doubt. Why else would they join a flying club, other than to fly?

ATVAlliance

Thanks for the info, I'll mark that down as another reason Im glad I dont live in California. lol

All jokes aside. What you say, while I cant confrim to be true or not...so I'll just take you for your word that it is, really doesnt change my opinion of what I posted.

The fact is that a good majority of folk who get into this fine hobby have large aspirations. Out of say 100 or more people that I have met the last 4 years since getting involved in this hobby, the majority of them want to fly larger models. I dont necessarily mean "giant scale"...but lets say .60 size and larger. There has only been a handful, actually probably only 2 people that I know of that wanted to stay with small electrics...one of those guys actually only wanted to fly ultra micros. And all of that is fine.

I respect the person for whom they are and not the choice of model that they want to fly. So really, as far as Im concerned...it doesnt matter. However, this thread isnt about that, at all. But rather about if the OP's idea on being self taught is a valid one or not. And to answer that, I say...yes, it possibly is IF all you ever want to fly are small electrics.

However, if your aspirations are to fly larger models...thinking you can teach yourself 100% on your own by using small ultra micro BNF or RTF airplanes, or helis for that matter, well I dont think many people will be successful going that route. Im not saying NO ONE would EVER be successful going that route, just saying that you would be stacking the deck against yourself by doing so.

Just because me having an opinion on this subject, doesnt mean what I say is true. This is the internet and you are obviously free to take away from my comments what you will. But I am not too far removed (just starting my 4th year) in this hobby and really there isnt an airplane or helicopter that I couldnt at least take off, fly the circuit AND land. All on my own with no help. But, I did not reach this level of flying skills all alone. A good portion of it, yes...i did on my own. But once I got into larger and more expensive models, having experienced club members mentor me on flying as well as setup techniques has saved me a lot of money and heartache.

I really thought hard about even posting in this thread because I knew that someone would want to debate my opinion. When the reality is I wasnt trying to make a debatable post. Rather just give an honest and fair input (opinion) from someone that has learned on his own AND with a club that is now a successful RC flyer that is having more fun flying...than crashing.

Take from this what you will.

No offense to anyone here, and goodluck to all.


PS...one more thing. I should have not said 30% GASSER. I should have just said larger planes period. The engine/motor type is irrelevant really. I didnt think I would have to explain that a plane that weighs mere "ounces" will take off, fly and land differently than say one that ways 20 pounds or more. A friend of our club (comes to fly with us on occasion but isnt part of the club) has a killer 100cc Beast that he converted to electric. Even though hes never offered for me to have a go at the sticks with it...im sure it doesnt fly anything like the ultra micro Beast, nor would I expect it to. however, someone brand new and using the advice from the OP MIGHT think that it would. That is the point that I was trying to clarify with my post.

Chucksolo69

That's exactly right and that is why Iposted what I did. Many, many opinions are formed on the situation at hand. That's just the way it is. Also, when I mentioned I had a mentor, he never flew a plane for me or trimmed it out. What I get from him is ecouragement and it is invaluable to see him fly and explain how and why he does things. I have never been on a buddy box with him, but just the assurence he gives me and the tips is a fantastic help.