loves nitro

First off I consider my self in between a beginner, and intermediate flyer I started flying by myself in June 2013, I fly a Super Cub, Sig Kadet, and Parkzone Trojan. I log all my flights and have had only one mild crash with the Trojan, in all I have 92 flights. I don't try to do stunts, I just fly scale, last week I bought a Parkzone Focke-Wulf 190, I figured whats the fuss, it's just an airplane like my others I can take-off, fly, and land it. Yesterday in the early morning I flew it for the first and last time, I took off alright, but once in the air the plane was climbing, and rolling right BIG TIME. I tried to trim it out, and even got it flying level, but everything was happening so fast, trying to keep her in the air, and going straight, it was like my mind shorted out from everything that was happening all at once, then I lost perspective of the plane and she crashed, I don't think I actually lost perspective so much as I just could'nt comprehend everything bad that was happening so fast. Now when I think about it , it all seems like a foggy dream, I flew my Sig today with the guy who taught me how to fly, and he told me that the Focke-Wulf is a "tricky" plane to fly, and in his opinion a bad choice for some-one at my skill level. He knows I like bi-planes and recommended to me that maybe the Parkzone Albatros would be a good plane to step up from my trainers, so on the way home from the flying field we stopped at the local hobby shop and I ordered a PK Albatros but this time Im gonna let my instructor fly her and trim her out for me before I fly her, Tim my instuctor also wants to buddy box me on it for the first couple of flights. Maybe if I had thought about letting Tim fly, and trim out the Focke-Wulf first, and then buddy box me I would'nt have crasher her. But from you more experiance flyers I would appriciate your opinion on my new Albtros purchase, and the flight charectoristics of that plane, and any advice or comments you could give a flyer at my skill level.
Thanks,
paul

jester_s1

Not having seen you fly it's hard to know where your deficiencies are, but in general intermediate pilots have only flown trainer and sport planes, so they tend to let the wings stall too much to be able to handle a serious scale model properly. If you haven't already, start working on bringing in your trusty T-28 fairly flat so you are flying it all the way to the ground and landing by releasing the elevator. It will be a little frustrating because the plane will want to keep flying, but that little tweak to your landing style will get you ready for a heavily loaded warbird or WWI type biplane. Also get good at coordinating your turns. You need to keep a close eye on how the nose of the fuselage is pointed in a turn so that it stays going straight.
You've also made a smart decision to let a more experienced pilot do your initial trim flight for you. While you're at it, get someone to do a thorough pre-flight also. Even if you are on top of setting up a plane properly, there's a weird quirk of psychology that if you've missed someone once you'll likely miss it again. A fresh set of eyes can spot problems that you never noticed. I once showed up with a plane that I had forgot to put the aileron servo screw in. I had been over it at least 3 times front to back, and had missed it every time. That 2 minute inspection from a buddy who wasn't any better a flyer than me saved my airplane just because he wasn't used to seeing the plane.

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

Congratulations Loves Nitro on the courage to post this and an excellent choice to post it here in the beginners forum as the push to fly the sexy airplanes is so strong for new folks. The discussion between you and your instructor (mentor) is one most mentors have to deal with often.

No one is born with the knowledge or the skills necessary to fly an airplane full scale or model aircraft (anykind). The Right Stuff is a movie myth nothing more. acquiring that knowledge and those skills is always a series of steps and yes many do skip steps but what always happens is those missing steps or holes in ones knowledge will always come back to bite you in the butt, always!

Younger students do on an average tend to pick up that knowledge and skills faster than older folks however in the end their performance tend to be similar. Older folks also tend to have to deal more often with problems of aging which in many cases can be delt with to a point.

So Loves Nitro thank you for your post and by the way I love Nitro Too.

John

thailazer

LovesNitro..... Good post, and congrats on all the progress you are making. You mentioned that you like to fly scale but doing a few extra maneuvers could accelerate your learning and reactions. One thing that is good with all models is to take them up high and see how slow they will fly. Find out where they stall, and find out how they react when you turn too slow in each direction. They will show you their bad habits in a hurry, and you will learn how effective the rudder is in taming a developing spin. Have your instructor show you this. All this will help your landing too as you will know how slow your approach speed can be.

Loops are good just for developing perspective, and I like to teach and do stall turn/hammerheads as well as unusual attitudes can develop and they also help the learning.

The cool thing about this hobby is that we keep learning and sometimes re-learning stuff we forget. I have just had an "episode" with a model where I tried to fly it with the center of gravity too far back. Arggh,, old timers should know better, but not always! Keep flying and have fun! Hope to see you here often.

Charlie P.

Some war planes can bite you. 15 years ago MOST would. They need to be flown at speed and if your first instinct is to slow down that can make things worse. There have been some good looking foam electrics that instilled confidence - but the FW from Parkzone does not appear to be a sheep in Wulf's clothing. One of our members - an experienced pilot - cartwheeled his on the maiden. His reaction was that he'd become complacient with the electrics he'd been flying.

As you say - a lot can come at you all at once. Nothing spoils your day worse than a low speed stall except a high speed stall.

loves nitro

I want to thank all you guys for the kind words of encouragement, and the good advice, Im going to incorporate all the things you guys have told me to do as I know it will help me in my quest to fly warbirds down the road offcourse. Meanwhile Im going to continue flying my Sig, and "trusty Trojan" as often as the weather will allow including all winter, My instructor and I feel I need to tail-dragger experiance and since I love warbirds, he's found one he thinks will be an appropreate "tail-dragger warbird, he's read all the reviews, good and bad, and studied the videos and feels that the Parkzone Albatros just may be a good stepping stone for me provided I let him maiden her, and get her all trimmed out, and he buddy-box me until he feels Im ready to solo with that bird, and thats just what Im gonna do, I just wish I would have done this for the Focke-Wulf. Anyway I guess old dogs can learn new tricks once they get bit, and see the error of their ways.
Paul

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

Paul sound like you and your mentor has a good handle on things and he is guiding down the right road.

In hindsight and after going back to reread your first post there is another possibility that has not been mentioned in this thread yet but happens more often than you think even with well experienced pilots. That is simply reversed ailerons! This is what makes the second opinion on the airplane set up so important.

I really, really try on every test flight to check this at least three times. First two times an initial look and a double check before proceeding to start the engine or positioning the airplane for flight. While doing the intial airplane inspection with the tail of the airplane pointing toward my face as if I were the pilot of the airplane and sitting in it. then move each control surface with the transmitter in a full deflection of each surface and hold it. look at that surface and see if is defecting the wing or tail in the desired direction. Next do the opposite throw just the same and do this for all the flight controls.
After checking all the other important things, push rods linkages and so forth including a quick check of the CG and fingertips are just fine for a last check, Then I will take another look at the control directions before it leaves the bench.

The last very important test is an important habit every time even with an everyday flyer that you may have flown many times is when the airplane is sitting on the ground just before takeoff (every single t/o every time) do that third quick control direction test with the tail pointing at you just before take off.

I am not saying that is what happened to your FW but it is definitely a possibility and a scenario to keep in mind.


John

loves nitro

John,
Good advice, the first thing Tim (my instructor) taught me was to check all the control surfaces every single time before I fly, it's now a well ingrained habit I have. Your right though as I've seen very experianced flyers crash because they failed to check all the control surfaces, there is a big difference between just throwing the sticks, and really looking at the control surfaces. When I check them I hold the sticks, and take a good hard look at each control surface, I also check the CG before each flight, ya just never know .
Paul

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

Cool

rt3232

My Feedback: (6)

John

+ 1 on your thoughts. I like building and during the build I have found for me, as I install the all of the gear ie: engine, radio etc, during the build I seem to buld a check list, So When it is time to do a madin, I follow it, and still there can be some Issue's. The place ware I realy like to have a buddy checking is during the fianl balance process.

Loveniteo
you and your mentor seam to have a handle on things, So my input is if you have never bilt a bird, Build a kit for a wenter project, you will be amaized at the learning curve. Plus the pride when you fily it.

cheers form an OLD gezer Bob T
AMA13377

Rob2160

Hi Paul,

As others have said, thanks for sharing that experience. I think most of us can relate to it at one time.

I don't have the Albatross but a friend does and I have flown his many times. It is a very nice model but it has a large amount of adverse yaw when using ailerons. It causes very unbalanced flying during turns.

In a real aircraft like this the pilot would correct adverse yaw by applying rudder in the same direction as the aileron input.

I strongly recommend setting up an aileron / rudder mix for the Albatross. We did this on my friends and the improvement is significant. it flies much more scale and has better roll response.

If your radio allows, put this mix on a switch so you can turn it on and off at will, and compare the difference..

Good luck with your new plane and sorry about the Focke-Wulf.

loves nitro

Rob2160,
Thanks for the tip, about how much rudder/aileron mix would you recommend?
Thanks,
paul

Rob2160

Hi Paul,

I just had to call my friend as I couldn't remember. We have 35% on the Albatross.

I use an Aileron / Rudder mix on most of my scale aircraft for scale flying, but usually only about 20%-25% and on a switch to disable it for aerobatics.

The Albatross needed a bit more and flies really nice with this setting.

Just to clarify.. It is an Aileron / Rudder mix.. not a Rudder / Aileron mix. The radio sees this as two completely different things.

Basically with the mix on, moving the rudder stick only the rudder will move, but if you move the aileron stick, the rudder also moves in the same direction.

Hope that makes sense.

loves nitro

Rob2160,
Thanks much for the info I greatly appreciate it, Im glad you mentioned that it's aileron/rudder mix, and that makes all the sense in the world to me. I've haven't used a mix before so I was woundering how that will work when Im taxying on the runway, but I understand now, the mix is on the aileron stick, but my rudder stick will still function normally. My Trojan is a really nice, and easy plane to fly, but now Im thinking I might put a 20/25% aileron/rudder mix on that plane as well just to see the difference. With only 4 1/2 months of solo flying under my belt, Im still working on take-offs , landings, and basic flying skills, so Im sure adding an aileron/rudder mix will help.
Thanks again I really appriciate all the help from you, and everyone else here on this forum.
Paul

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

Paul kudos to rob for having the courage to mention or suggest using an 'aileron To rudder mix' for certain airplanes. Its always been a subject that is very controversial and not really a politically correct thing to suggest in especially a beginners forum. But I totally agree with him there are some airplanes that mix will be of great benefit without making a machine destroying the pilots learning curve, something often suggested when the subject comes up.

Paul generally the aircraft types that will benefit most and there are always exceptions either way Are: Cubs especially Cubs, High wing aircraft and biplanes especially slower flying scale types. There are always exception for example the ultimate type biplane the mix would be pointless but lots of scale types and especially ww1 types and so on.

Paul the reasons of course as Rob described is whats called adverse yaw which is cuased by the ailerons and your Trojan is a type that the mix is not really necessary but definitely so for your albatross.

While what Rob said about full scale airplanes that pilots correct for this adverse yaw is true but what is not so commonly known is that most full scale aircraft do actually use this mix to a small percentage and it is done mechanically with springs and bands. Most all of the Piper PA 28 series (most all the low wings) uses this mix and virtually all modern high wing Cesnas also have this mechanical mix.

Recently I have been working with a fellow who purchased ten years ago a Top Flight Tiger Moth ARF from tower after learning to fly and it was flown with help form someone at the time but it Terrifyed him so he parked it. When I recently set it up for him it was typically just a tad to tailheavy when I tested it and certainly could benefit from some aileron To rudder so I set it up and buddy corded him and the difference was substancial. after some cord time he can now finally begin to enjoy that ARF he bought so long ago.

Agine Kudos to Rob!

John

loves nitro

Thanks John, this thread has really been an education for me, Im going to meet Tim (my instructor) later on today at the flying field, I doubt we'll do any flying as the weather is rainy,but we're gonna talk about the Albatross. The plan is when the weather permits he'll check her out, and set it up with 35% aileron/rudder mix, everything else will be by the book. Then he'll fly her and see how she handles, then he'll set her, and my DX6 to my skill level, and buddy-box me. I do have an FMS 1400mm V7 P51 thats only been flown once, and not by me but instead by a very very good flyer who after flying it told me to get more stick time before I attempt to fly it. Hopfully the Albatross will get me ready for the P51 buy next year. After the Focke-Wulf disaster I've learned not to throw money away trying to fly something beyond my skill level, as they say Rome was'nt built in a day, my best course is to GRADUALLY work my way up to WW2 warbirds, even if it takes a couple of seasons.
Thanks Again ,
Paul

vasek

My Feedback: (4)

Hi, I experienced 3 levels of flying skills:

1) trainer: self leveling wings - you let it fly by it self and correct the flight path when you want

2) low wing trainer: you fly the plane all the time correcting it by "prevention" so it does what you want

3) warbird type: you fly it all the time + compensate for it's bad habits (stall speed, coordinate turns (rudder) ....)

One final point is speed, faster the plane, more you have to "see" ahead of its path/ behavior

Myself I had to go a step @ a time, adding just one new element each time. But I am a slow learner

Cheers.V.

raptureboy

I would rather have you learn to use the rudder in conjuction with the ailerons rather than a mix so you get the feel of what its like to use the rudder. So many new flyers never learn to use the left stick except to go fast or slow. The rudder is essential in flying a warbird especially at take off where the ailerons have little effect and can actually cause you to crash. Try flying using only the rudder and elevator to turn and see the effects. Practice rolling and use the rudder to help keep the roll axial. I always teach use of the rudder with my students so they know how to correct for cross wind takeoffs and landings later on. Mixs are fine but not a substitute for learning to use all the controls. I have a flying buddy who is a retired airline pilot and in his later years he would have new pilots who could not land in a cross wind without the use of the computer. I agree with the comment above about learning to fly the airplane to the ground not just floating in, real planes don't float into a landing they come in under power as this keeps airflow over the control surfaces. I wish you continued success and don't get discouraged over a crash or 2 at least with these planes you can walk away from it.

flyinwalenda

My Feedback: (5)

Even Parkzones BF109 is tough to fly/land just like the larger balsa versions. If you like warbirds and like to fly scale and like foam electrics you can look at Parkzones Corsair. Of the Parkzone planes I have that's the one I would replace if anything happened to it. A little different to fly as it's a tail-dragger but handles well in the air but it can teach you how to fly ad land slower and eventually teach you about using flaps(if you enable them). Good luck and keep practicing. Nothing looks better than to see a plane flown in a scale (or as close to scale) manner!

Stormrider51

Everyone has given very good advice. I started flying last July and I have both the PZ Albatros and the S.E. 5a. I got the S.E. first and have more flight time on it. I had a friend look it over and maiden it before I flew it. My total experience at that time was with an Apprentice 15e (the older one without the SAFE technology) and a couple of 3-channel micro birds (Champ & Cub). Here's my experience with both biplanes.

If you fly from a grass strip be sure to pull the elevator into full "up" position before advancing the throttle. Then advance the throttle slowly. Failure to do these two things can result in the plane nosing over. Watch the nose and if it starts to dip back off the throttle and try again. Once the plane is rolling maintain the up elevator and use the rudder to control left/right direction. The plane will rise off the ground on its own. Be prepared for this to happen and ease off on the elevator to prevent a stall. I tried easing off on the elevator during the take off run so the tail could "fly" and discovered that hitting a clump of grass caused a nose over at almost flying speed. No real damage to the plane but it taught me a lesson. Now I keep the tail nailed down and watch for the first indication of the wheels leaving the ground before I ease off on the elevator. If you fly from a paved runway all of the above may be unnecessary. I don't know because I only have a grass strip available.

Both planes come with the option to put on a tail wheel or skid. I have the tail wheel on the S.E. 5a and the skid on the Albatros. I can't see any difference when flying from grass. If you fly from pavement the tail wheel is probably better because it is linked to the rudder and therefore steerable.

These planes not only look like WW-I biplanes, they also tend to fly like one. You really need to feed in some rudder to initiate a turn and then follow it with aileron or the plane will tend to wallow. I've never tried the mixing idea so I can't comment on that. My planes turn best when I feed in some rudder first. I learned to fly full scale in a Piper TriPacer that had the linked aileron/rudder. Frankly, it made me into a lazy pilot. My second plane was a 1939 Aeronca tail dragger. I learned to fly all over again and use the rudder.

Practice doing three-point landings. Again this applies mostly if you fly off grass. Landing on the mains may work fine on pavement. On grass the plane is likely to nose over.

One last thing to be aware of. Both my bipes came with two velcro straps to secure the battery in its compartment. This works fine in the S.E. because the compartment itself is closed at the rear and the battery really can't move. The Albatros is another story. The rear of the battery compartment is wide open and those two straps are not sufficient to keep the battery in place. I learned this the hard way. I didn't have a friend check out the plane before its maiden flight and my lack of experience showed. I "secured" the battery in place with the velcro straps, closed the hatch, and set the plane down for take off. I applied all the techniques the S.E. had taught me, tail nailed to the ground and very slow application of throttle. Everything went exactly as I expected until the wheels left the ground. At that point the plane went nose-high and no amount of down elevator would bring it to level flight. It was staggering along with its nose way up in the air and heading for a road that runs alongside the flying field. Of course, there was a car coming. I slowly backed off on the throttle and let the plane flop down. The impact broke the lower wing, one wing strut and the landing gear. I later discovered that one aileron servo was also broken. All in all, I was lucky. When I opened the compartment to disconnect the battery I discovered that it had slid aft completely out of the front velcro strap and was more than 2.5" aft of where it should have been. This created a tail heavy situation and made the plane impossible to control. So when you get your Albatros put some velcro on the battery and the compartment to make the thing stay put. Be smarter than I was.

I hope you like your Albatros. I have to say that both my biplanes attract attention when I fly them. Sometimes people will stop their cars at the side of that road I mentioned and get out to watch or take photos/videos of the planes in flight. That's usually my cue to do a few loops and rolls. I sometimes bring the plane closer to the road in a low level pass so they can see the pilot with his scarf waving in the breeze. Maybe my little air show will encourage someone to give RC flying a try. At the very least it is good PR for the hobby.

Have fun,
John

Rob2160

All good advice John,

I had a Parkzone SE5A but gave it to my friend in Perth who has the Albatross (He stores 50% of my planes in his Garage anyway)

Here is a vid while I had it - this is using the Aileron / Rudder mix, and you are right about the scarf, it looks great in a fly by

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTf-uRRQeZA Also agree with Brian's comments on the Corsair, that was my first Parkzone plane and still flies great. I put bigger wheels on mine for flying off longer grass and also fitted a working bomb..

Some vids..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZxkVx6M27w This one has the Aileron / Rudder mix also and you can see how balanced it is when rolling into and out of turns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fLvQgJ81kI And one for fun..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSKJpoqxRRM

Rob2160

Came across a good article on Aileron Rudder mixing.

http://www.rcflightschool.com/Basic_...lo_0B16-25.pdf

jester_s1

That mix is one of the top five argument starters on RCU. I'm in the "don't" party regarding it for two reasons. First, it's just a crutch to get out of having to learn good flying technique. Beginner pilots are supposed to be working on their skills, so why would you want to have the radio do something for you that you really need to do for yourself? The need for rudder mixing changes with crosswinds, so it's not like you won't need the skill anyway. And when you start flying aerobatics your left thumb skills play a big role in how good your maneuvers look. Delaying learning the rudder delays your whole progress in piloting skills. Besides, it ain't that hard to push a little rudder while you push a little aileron. Second, there are times when that mix will cause trouble for you. On landing approaches in particular, there are times when a bump of turbulence causes the plane to roll a bit and you need to correct it. You don't need to turn; you just need to level the wings. With rudder so much more effective than ailerons at slow speeds, you're going to wind up turning the plane when you didn't want to which you'll have to correct. You're so much better off simply learning the rudder skills and using them when you fly.

jaka

Hi!
I'm with you!
Mixing anything isn't the way to go!!
If you want to became an experienced flier you have to learnhow to Control an airplane is all aspects, and you don't do that by mixing the rudder functions.
Mixing ailerons and rudder makes the plane behave in some bad manners, like diving in a roll and not Rolling in a staright line when doing multiple rolls and you are not going to be able to control landing in the same positive manner as without mixing. How do I know this? Well I have been flying R/C for nearly fourty years.
I don't like "sitting on any high horses" but try ty build something instead of buying those tiny foam Electric planes! They don't fly that good compared to a larger (130-180cm) plane, particullarly in windy weather. Instead get a balsa kit and a glow engine(.40-.46) which is much more versatile than a electric motor plane due to how easy it is to just fuel it up and go flying! No LiPo batteries to charge and so on.

On a .40-.46 glow plane you can learn the basics of aerobatics ,and that's what you must learn if you want to fly a warbird safely. I assume when you say "Warbird" you mean a fuel powered one,either glow or gas, 160-200cm in span and not those small Parkfly electric toy planes?.
A good start when you have learned the basics of flying and want to learn more is to get a Q-500 type of airplane like the one below.
It's sturdy! Flys as on rails (if you can fly that is), does basic manouvers well like rolls, inverted flight, stall turns , knife edge, rolling circles and is easy to land, and is fast (around 180-250km/h with a sport/racing .40 with a 10x6/8,8x8,5 prop). Learing to fly fast airplanes is vital if you want to keep your warbirds for any lenght of time.

vasek

My Feedback: (4)

Jaka, good suggestion for everyone. I like your first Tiger Q500 picture, what kind of MVVS is up front ? Looks quick even sitting on the table LOL.
2thumbsUP

Cheers, V.