I've seen a lot of postings about the relative merits of a taildragger conversion on a trainer. The LHS guy agreed, since you've gotta learn to handle one before you move up to sport models.

What I haven't seen addressed is this: is it advisable to start out with a taildragger? Is the learning curve about the same? Model in question: LT-40.

Thanks,
Jeff

The learning curve is about the same. On landing, however, you've got to maintain control after the plane touches down, with the rudder primarily, until the plane slows to a speed at which a ground loop is unlikely. If you are flying from a grass runway, then by all means go for the taildragger.

It's sort of like learning to drive a car with a stick. you need to learn how to drive one SOME day, and some people may say "Why not start out with one?"

I say: start easy, learn one thing at a time.

Why throw too many curve balls all at once?

If you are on a buddy box anyway, it shouldn't matter and may be preferable for the guy instructing. I had so much trouble with my tricycle steering linkage that when I did move to a taildragger is was night-and - day easier. Do it, it's not that big of a difference.

It's FAR eaiser to learn with trickle<sp> gear than a taildragger.. No
where near the same for take-off and landings.. If your new.. Get
a trainer with trike gear... Can it be done... I guess so... But it MOST
LIKELY will cost you a lot more to learn with the taildragger!! And that's
if you find a club trainer that will allow it..

I don't see why starting with a taildragger would be a problem. I started with a "regular" trainer and then converted it into a taildragger. I learned a lot in the process (it is not just matter of changing the third wheel). I don't think the opposite would be as easy, though (converting a tail dragger into a tricycle)
Luis

I prefer to teach my students to fly with a tail dragger right off from the start. Initially the instructor does the take-offs/landings so it is not a problem. By the time that the student is ready to learn how to take off, they have enough skills developed that the tail dragger "problem" really doesn't exist. Landing with a tail dragger is actually much easier than with a trike ( the trike will porpoise severly if landed on its nose wheel & likely damage the nose gear &/or the airframe).

Most 2nd & 3rd" planes will be tail draggers in any case, so the pilot is better off learning this stuff right away, & if you are flying off grass there is really not much choice -- trikes are not good in grass.

If you learn on a taildragger as I did, I'd advised taxiing around a LOT without the wings to get a feel for the rudder. You will WAY overcontrol when you start out; it cost me several crashes (self taught) in the beginning before I learned this trick.

Go for the taildragger. I've never even flown a tricycle gear plane so I don't know the difference. My first was the 4*40. Just get the right instruction you need on a buddy box or whatever and even do some simulator time if you have one. I agree with doing some taxiing first without the wing just to get used to it and then go for it.

Trike gear!

YOU STEER WITH THE SAME STICK WETHER IT BE TRICYCLE OR TAILDRAGGER! [:@]

It totally doesn't make a difference. My second plane was a UCANDO 46 after my trainer and the fact is was a taildragger didn't make one iota of a difference.

I really dont think it makes any difference the first plane i ever flew was a taildragger (Cub) and then i moved onto my ripmax trainer which i didnt find any easier. I think its a lot more important to choose a plane that is stable with good stall characteristics.

I've never flown nor taxied a tricycle gear model. My first plane was a taildragger, my second, third and now fourth planes are all taildraggers, too. Happily they have never caused a single problem on takeoff or landing, and, except for the first plane, all live and fly well. The trainer hit the ground unnecessarily one fine day, and it flies no more. The landing gear was fine, though.

Lachlan "I like my planes to drag their asses" McLean

I do not understand guys who tell someone that learning to fly a taildragger is harder than learning to fly tricycle gear. If someone has zero flight experience to begin with, it really makes no difference, as they will have to learn take offs and landings anyway. Yeah, tailwheels are more of a challenge, and keep the pilot on his toes right up until engine shutdown, but when taught the proper technique they are no harder to learn on. Now once you have learned on a trike, and then decide to go to a taildragger, THAT is where guys have the problems. I converted my LT40 to a taildragger before it was ever flown, and it works very well. Besides, if you are ever planning on flying SERIOUS aerobatics, or warbirds, you might as well learn the tailwheel right from the beginning!

I learned on an LT 40 trike.

I could not STAND having to straighten the front wheel every other flight. That was annoying.

i learned on a tail dragger...go for it!

Most the new guys at our field have the same problem - the ones with trikes. Firewalls get ripped-out too.

I modified the plans for my trainer and built it as tail dragger. My instructor thought it a fine idea. Learning to take-off and land it wasn't an issue. It's not that hard as long as the main gear has a bit of toe-in - so you don't ground loop.

Learn it all at once. Build a tail-dragger.

First flew on a low wing taildragger, and once I had learned to steer it on the ground with the rudder (by taxiing for a few 5 minute sessions plus a few flights on a sim.), it was no problem at all, just ease the throttle on at first till it gets moving then gun it with up elevator and a little right rudder to stop it nosing over and wandering left. (Some do not agree with this method, but on my model it works well), - but be decisive!
A tad of down elevator just as it lifts off lets it climb out at a shallow angle so it can gain speed and prevent a stall.
I didn't use an instructor, ( but if one is available, a good one is invaluable, and is really the best choice). - In which case, disregard my instructions and let him take over!

If I had to learn over again, I would still use a taildragger!

Thanks for all of the responses. Even if the majority opinion was not for taildragger, the fact that some call the trike gear a "built-in firewall degluer" is enough for me.

I've already talked to two different instructors in the club I'm joining, and they all seem helpful and experienced. I ordered my taildragger conversion parts last night, plus new Sullivan pushrods due to LT-40 pushrod concerns.

-Jeff

Converting a trike model with tail feathers similar to the LT-40 is not too much of a chore if you're building from a kit, where you can plan for the installation, but if its an ARF it can be a problem figuring out how to connect it all up. On a model with a rudder that comes down between split elevators it is easy to set it up for tail dragger steering by hooking the steering wire directly to the bottom of the rudder. With a model that has tail feathers like an LT-40 it can be tedious getting a tail wheel steering wire up through the fuselage so that it hooks to the rudder. I had a trike with a similar tail set up once, and took the easy way out. I just made the tail free wheeling with no connection to the rudder. I steered with air across the rudder. Had to be at half throttle or better anyway to move about on our grass runway and it worked just fine. Kind of like the old WWI fighters. They had tail skids, and they were steered with a blast of air across the rudder. Everything old is new again!

I think the biggest problem is trying to start out with a Funtana vs Space Walker II. The Space Walker would be more like an Avistar and good for training, while the other is a 3d plane. The main thing is get a tail dragger that is easy to learn on. Take off and landing should not be much of a problem, because you LEARN how to do it with the tail or trike. Neither should be harder than the other, its just when you are used to flying one, then move to the other is where the problem shows up.

This is exactly the kind of advise that makes me nuts.

Basically you're saying "Take my advice, cause I don't know what I'm talking about."

Allow me to elaborate on the "Taildragger vs Trike" delemma:

Which of these is easier to do:

1) Park a car in a stall with a cross wind
2) Pull a boat into a slip on a fast moving river with a cross wind

Obviously it is easier to park a car because you have wheels that are in solid contact with the ground. The wind plays very little if anything to do with it, and there is no River current in the road.

Now, let's equate that to Trike vs TD:

With a Trike gear, you have three wheels in solid contact with the ground. One of those wheels provides steering - again, it steers by turning a wheel which is in solid contact with the ground. The plane can not (easily) nose over, or move side-to-side without your control. And when you give control, the plane responds immediately.

With a Taildragger, shortly after you start to roll, the tailwheel leaves the ground. You now have only two wheels in contact with the ground and they are side-by-side (As opposed to front and back like a motorcycle) so they can pivot around both the Yaw and Pitch axes.

Now, without getting too complicated, let's look at the forces involved...

The engine is pulling the plane forward while the main wheels are providing drag - So the plane wants to nose over, and you must correct this tendency by holding UP elevator... But not TOO much... if you hold too much, the plane can take off permaturely and snap back into the ground. And if you don't hold enough, the prop will hit the ground, and you don't want that either.

Next, once that tail lifts, aside from controlling its elevation, you must control its side-to-side motion with the control you are least familliar with - The Rudder. Keep in mind three things:

1- You are overcoming any type of wind such as cross wind PLUS any prop effect, and
2- You are having to overcome the torque of the engine
AND
3- You are having to do this with NO SOLID CONTACT WITH THE GROUND.

This brings us to the "Pendulum effect". In other words, when you're turning Right with a wheel on the ground, then you turn Left, the response is immediate. However, when you're turning Right with only a rudder moving through the air, and then turn left, the momentum of the tail will continue to swing in the first direction before changing to the next, so there is a time lag between the time control input is given, and the time the airplane reacts.

Since reaction time is not immediate, the new pilot often adds MORE Left Rudder than is needed. Once the plane reacts to the control input, the turn has been over-corrected, and the tail swings too far, so the pilot has to give Right rudder to correct his mistake - and we have the beginnings of the proverbial "Vicious Cycle"

Keep in mind, this is all happening while you're balancing the elevator! (We don't want that prop to hit!)

Now, some taildraggers handle more easily that others, there are too many contributing factors to get into.

But the bottom line is:

Everyone has a different learning curve, so the choice is yours. You can take your driving lessons with an Automatic Transmission, or a Stick.

With all due respect, Minn, the purpose of that statement was to let everyone know that I can't compare the ease of the taildragger to the ease of a trike gear because I've never flown one. But in my limited experience I have had absolutely no trouble with the TD. But again I can't compare to a trike.
All of your comment are true of course but these are all things that just COULD happen in the right situation. There are many things that COULD happen if the conditions are right for just about anything you do. As another person said on this thread, most people only fly a trike plane as their trainer and never have another for the rest of their life. If you start on the trike you have to learn the tendencies of the TD anyway so you might as well start on one. Why relearn how to take off? But like you said, with the right TD and instructor this learning curve can be dramatically flattened. Of course no one should try to learn with an advanced taildragger but I see nothing wrong with say a 4*. As I said, I have the 4*40 which I learned on and it is a very stable aircraft and ground handling is very easy. A little right rudder when the tail comes up and you are skyward bound. The thing takes off all by itself. THe balancing act with the elevator is not even an issue. All you need to due is hold the slightest amount of up elevator and it's all done. How hard could that really be? You have to pull up elevator no matter what plane you fly anyway so what's the difference. The only nose overs I've ever encountered were on landing because of deep grass.
BTW, I think learning to drive with a stick shift is a good idea. But not if you live in L.A. or some huge city like that.
The key is to get an instructor and spend as much time with that person as you need and just have fun. As Minnflyer said, everyones learning curve is different and you know what capabilities you bring to the table. Are you coming into this cold turkey or have to flown a friends plane or spent time on a simulator. I just don't want every in the world to be scared of a taildragger.

Granpaw:

That is why converting a trike to a taildragger is such a good idea. You get to learn a tremendous amount without going through the tremendous job of building a kit. And you did not mention the repositioning of the main wheels in order to not nose-over. Lots to learn. It invites a lot of critical thinking. Highly recommended project for the novice who is starting to get bored with the trainer (don't just jump into 3D, learn more with your trainer)

MinnFlyer: well said


Luis

This subject is getting idiotic! Jeff, just go out to your local full scale airport. Stop at the flight training operations, count the tricycle gear trainers, count the tail dragger trainers and report back.