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Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

Old 03-12-2005, 09:09 PM
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seibertphd
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Default Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

I would like to modify a Kadet Senior to add ailerons, but since it is originally a rudder and elevator rig, I assume I will have to reduce the dihedral, but how much, and then there is a question about how big to make the ailerons? Strip ailerons or “real” ailerons at the ends of the wings? Anyone ever done this before?
Old 03-12-2005, 09:34 PM
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

I put a one inch block under each wing tip at the last rib ,worked well. I used full ailerons on the wing. They were about two inches as I remember, worked well with in the wing servos. See if you can find a Sr. ARF around and compare if you feel the need, but my method worked well for me.
This is areally great plane and you should have a lot of fun and learn a lot.
Old 03-12-2005, 10:24 PM
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twistr
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

The Kadet Sr. ARF has "barn door style" ailerons (large). This bird can be modified to fly with ailerons. You could take some of the dyhedral out, but I'm not so sure it's necessary. Maybe someone else will know more about that. I've seen lots of trainers with lots of dyhedral and ailerons fly just fine.
Old 03-13-2005, 12:21 AM
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

I've been told by a couple of experienced designers to eliminate 80 to 100% of the dihedral. Having that much stock dihedral causes the ailerons to fight the wings. I was also told to make the ailerons(if not using strip ailerons) 25% of chord and about 25% of span. On a 48" spanned Kadet Jr I'm building(from plans, the kit has been discontinued[]), I have extended the span to 54" with 2.5X8 inch(approximate) ailerons. I also deleted ALL of the dihedral(1.75 inch), giving a continuous main spar from tip to tip. The wings will have individual aileron servos and be fully sheeted for added strength when finished as well.
Old 03-13-2005, 12:27 AM
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blikseme300
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

Ahh....The memories of my Kadett.

I changed the dihederal to 3" under one tip and used 2" strip aileron stock. These were driven with 2 servos about 1/3 out on each panel.

Mine was covered with Sig coverall and dope. I used a Webra Blackhead .61. What a nice plane. Very light and IMHO the best trainer ever.

Safe Flying!
Old 03-13-2005, 12:58 AM
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JohnBuckner
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

The kit built Senior does not have ailerons and considerable dihedral to give it A very nice handling quality with just rudder The Senior ARF comes with barndoor ailerons and about half the diheral. You can add strip ailerons to the Kit Senior easily and I have done this by cutting off a bit of the trailing edge so that you can get sufficient thickness to install hinges then using full span strips but they will have to be as above around two inchs wide. Which will make the trailing edge of the aileron extend beyond the original trailing edge a about an inch. The torque rods can be installed in the normal trainer fashion.

If you do not reduce the dihedral the roll response will be a little sluggish. If you like and choose not to reduce dihedral a little aileron to rudder mix will impart very pleasent handling. Reducing dihedral will provide much more response.

Barn door ailerons are more work but provide even better handling. It usually involves adding a false spar in front of the cutout to give you something to hinge to and the easiest way to control them is using two aileron servo either on a 'Y' cord or mixed on two channels.

This photo show my Cadet Senior and on this one I used barndoors, reduced dihedral to about one forth of the stock kit Senior dihedral, two servos and you can see the structure through the clear covering.

John
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Old 03-13-2005, 10:58 AM
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Rodney
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

Mr. Buckner pretty much said it all. I'd recommend removing all dihedral if you want the best reaction and roll rates.
Old 03-13-2005, 11:00 AM
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

I recommend removing ALL of the dihedral and adding 1 1/2" strip ailerons. These are easier than barn-door ailerons & every bit as effective. Dual aileron servos would be nice to have, but not necessary if you keep the speed down. The modified plane will have good roll response & good inverted flight capability.
Old 03-13-2005, 11:02 AM
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

Check out [link=http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aerostuff/kadflap.htm]this[/link] link. I'm thinking of getting a Kadet Sr. but want somethig with ailerons as well. If they only made the LT-40 with an 80" wingspan!
Old 03-13-2005, 09:48 PM
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seibertphd
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

Great answers guys! Thank you. I think I will go with the barn-door style and duel servos just for the novelty of it. I'd say you did some pretty extensive modifications there John, couple extra engines along with the ailerons! And floats! Actually, I am thinking of taking mine to the water too - since I have a small lake across the street here. I got the Kadet thinking it would be a bit easier - read slower - on landing so I could get set up for the water landings without too much panic. I've been flying a Tower Trainer off the snow-covered lake with floats and that has been a heck of a lot of fun - the frictionless landings on snow are a sight to behold! The plane seems to slide forever!

Again thanks for the help!
Old 03-14-2005, 09:19 AM
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BillS
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

I have a Kadet Senior with strip ailerons. I have also flown it with an ARF wing with barn door ailerons. The barn door ailerons have a lot of adverse yaw even with aileron differential. I would not recommend barn door ailerons. Your mileage may vary.

Bill
Old 03-14-2005, 10:16 AM
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

A small aside to this subject. Yesterday a nice fella showed up at the field with a brand new Kadet Sr. ARF w/OS 91 FS. He told me he had been out of the sport for 15 yrs and now had the time to start up again.
He was a little concerned and wanted me to assist and stand next to him on this first flight which I agreed to do. He did a range check which was fine.
I asked if he had reconfirmed his control surface directions, especially the Airlarons as that got me once and I have seen others do the same. He assured me that he had checked this completely and moved them again in front of me pronouncing them good. He told me he had been an instructor.......
He started up and taxied out and went for it full throttle, at about 20 ft. he did a 3/4 roll and almost made it, but alas it was "Pick-Up-Stix". He stated he had no Aileron control as he was fully the other direction, go figure.
We reconstructed the two wings and the fus. remains and guess what, Ailerons reversed.
Those Barn doors work well. Felt really bad for the guy as he must have been embarrased as most everyone present heard me ask about his set up, hope he doesn't get discouraged and quit.
Old 03-14-2005, 08:12 PM
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seibertphd
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

Hmmm... hadn't heard about the adverse yaw problem........

But I have definitely heard about control surface problems. I too am getting back in after 15 (or 20) years without flying - but went without an instructor for my first flight off the lake. I figured I had snow to cushion the fall, endless runway and no obstacles, so what could go wrong? Well, I did the range check - fine. Checked the controls, and fixed the rudder problem (oops! NO idea how that could have happened!) and then started er up, trimmed out the engine as best I could remember and went screaming off the snow. Beautiful lift off, gentle turn to the right and I'm definitely feeling like I am all under control when it flips and turns and I loose all sense of control. My wife, and pit crew, then looks at me and says, "Aren't you supposed to have your antenna up when you fly?" The snow is not really as soft as you would think at full throttle straight down, but the pieces were all pretty big and with some epoxy and plywood patches it was salvaged and I have had many good flights since then! I'm guessing an instructor would have caught that little slip too......
Old 03-14-2005, 10:44 PM
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iacolb12
 
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

So could someone explain what usually happens when you have "adverse" yaw. Does it put the plane into a flat spin or something? AND with large dihedral and ailerons wouldn't you have to use elevator to compensate?

It's been too long out of the hobby to remember this stuff. lol.
Old 03-14-2005, 11:38 PM
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JohnBuckner
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

Adverse Yaw

Is an effect on all converntional aircraft using any type aileron for roll control it is most pronounced on high wing aircraft. AY is caused by the fact that the downward moving aileron will produce the more lift than the upward moving one and the byproduct of that is drag and more drag will be produced on that side. The effect of this is the airplane will attempt to yaw about the vertical axis in the opposite direction from which we are attempting to roll or turn. You can watch it any day of the week at any field as trainers fly around and the pilots only using ailerons make turns and the airplane will put its wing down and try to point the nose in the wrong direction. Sorta looks like a drunken sailor trying to get back to his ship.

There are many ways to combat and minimise this but none will completly eliminate it. Thats why for a truly coodinated turn aileron and rudder should be used together. A little rudder in the desired direction will coordinate the turn perfectly. Now do we all use the rudder every time its needed well no, so some of the following will go a long way to minimise the effects particularly with highwing cabin types with lots of dihedral:

One way is by aileron design such a Frieze type airlerons which are seldom used in RC craft because of complexity of the build. Another method method is mechanical aileron differential. What this does is by linkage adjustments it does not allow the downward moving aileron to travel as far as the upward moving aileron therefore less drag to the outside of the turn. Yet another option is to program aileron differential on a computer radio But this will require the use of a servo on each aileron. The last option is to use aileron to rudder mix which many even entry level radios have today. What this does when activated will cause the rudder to move with the ailerons a selected percentage when only the aileron stick is moved but the rudder stick will continue to function and will have the full throw you have programed.

Before I finish just let me say many will belittle the use of this mix as not a manly thing to do. And yes of course most mid, low wing aerobatic type of course its redundant and it should not be used in lieu of learning good piloting technique. How ever some types will benefit enormously by its use, such as my four engine Cadet. Actually Cadets by the use of that mix can be made to have absolutely delightful handling just about better than anything out there for that type of flying.

John

Old 03-14-2005, 11:47 PM
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BillS
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Default RE: Ailerons on a Kadet Senior?

adverse yaw

Nothing dastardly happens. It is an annoying tendency to want to continue straight or veer to the right slightly during a left aileron bank. Usually more bank than necessary is required to turn and usually left ruder will help correct the tendency. If you watch the ARF’s fly the adverse yaw tendency can be readily seen. The airplane simply does not track well.

Bill

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