For the benifit of others that may read this thread I'll address the full scale to RC references.

As was already mentioned, aerodynamics is the only thing that transfers well but some others do transfer to a point. Stick movements do but not all of them. In RC to do a roll, you simply give aileron and add a little down while inverted in the roll. In full scale you lift the nose "X" number of degrees, then roll. To do a spin in RC, you add aileron. In some full scale planes if you do that you'll wind up in a spin that you cannot recover from. In RC there are more people than not just using the ailerons for a turn with no rudder coordination. Do that in full scale and you will see your paasengers turning green from the side forces not to mention a little thing called "adverse yaw". All planes have it, including RC, but the nice ting in RC, that can be easily engineered out as we are free to make any changes we see fit. There are more but you get the idea.

Now let's talk about power. In RC it's not uncommon to have a 1:1 power ratio so you can power your way out of problems. In full scale you are lucky to even have 0.75:1 and that's on a highly aerobatic plane so now you are flying on the wing and using energy management, which buy the way, does transfer very well into GS flying. The only real difference here is military aircraft, mainly jets

Ok so now I've covered just a few things between full and RC flights. Now lets look at training.

In full scale, would you simply rent a plane as an unlicensed pilot, take it up and attempt to fly without any instruction. No you would not. Two things are likely to happen if you were even able to rent that plane. If you do not kill yourself (which is number 1) the FAA and local/state police will be waiting for you if you do get it back down (number 2). Ok so now you fly full scale, you've got hundreds or even thousands of hours of time many types of aircraft and toms of ratings. What did you do when you wanted to learn to fly a new type, you got instruction.

Now lets assume that you do all the right things to get all of this full scale time. I'll then ask why in the world would you even consider trying to learn to fly RC on your own. That's easy because you now have a skill that most people do not possess. It's called ego and too much of it can get you or someone else hurt or killed. Remember the first time in a full scale plane you were taught spin recovery, how about crosswind landings, or power on/off stalls, accelerated stalls, and all those other things you needed to know to fly safely and get some experience before your solo. How many times did the instructor calmly, at first, remind you to do something, then finally take the controls from you because it had gone from a simple correction to if this does not happen now it's gonna be bad type of thing. How long did it take for you to get your first pilot certificate. FAA mandates a minimum set of times for ground scholl and flight. Most people easily double that number

My point to all of the above is simple, you can transfer some knowledge between the two, but not enough to be as safe as possible.

Why in the world would a full scale pilot not do what he/she is used to doing already and not get insruction? That's easy, there is nothing that says you MUST do this or that when it comes to the AMA ,they are just guidleines. Just imagine the AMA becoming like the FAA and now we have all of these rules and stuff, so much for the fun.

In my eyes, I'll take 10 - 20 hours of RC instruction. Now a bunch of you will say, It will take a lot longer than that for me. Not really, with a decent instructor and some determination of your part and a willingness to listen carefully, it may even be less. The difference is how often you get to train. I've trained students for over a year, but they would only come one day a week or even less and do 30 minutes worth of actual training time. In the end it was only 20 hours but spread over several months. I've also had the opposite where we did 10 hours over a weeks time and they were ready. In the end, they all had fun, got scared, and learned a ton from both me and the folks around the field and made some really good friends

BTW...I was a full scale pilot for several years flying GA and held VFR, IFR, commercial tickets and had 40+ hours unusual attitude training then did skywriting for 8 years flying AgCats and Stearmans. The difference for me was I came into this hobby with the knowledge I had but allowed the more experienced people to show me the correct way to do things and not always the flying part of it. I progressed very quickly. the people around me rolled their eyes when I first told them of my full scale experience, but they quickly found out my ego did not get in the way of doing what was needed to be a safe pilot.

And you know what, I still have a blast doing it.

Sorry for the rant and just jumping all over the place in this post

Really? Didn't want to wait 30 seconds? I think the advent of high-speed internet
has made people even less patient. But since RCU policy is to use the other services,
I'll take that into consideration next time.



It amazing what you can learn by reading these forums and asking questions at the hobby shop




Not gonna fly, that's for sure.




Yes, I range checked. And I was not flying at your average "public park"
The Utah Model Port is an RC airstrip owned by the State of Utah. See attached image.
Oh, and I put up my fequency tag like everyone else.




^-- This is exactly what I'm talking about. Negative comments like this ruin the hobby.
I got used to hearing them before I flew, but I'm suprised to hear them after providing
videos of perfect landings. Have you even bothered to watch the videos?



1) I ran 2 gallons through my engine on the test stand, my idle is 2000 RPM.
2) My control throws are accurate and in the right directions.
3) My center-of-gravity was very precisely set (see attached image)
4) As a matter of fact, I did have another pilot check the plane, and nothing was wrong with it.
I did my homework and took my time making sure everything was correct.

I did, and since you used the word "perfect".

The landing were far from "perfect" In the one where you landed, you almost hit the fence protecting the pilots stations, then nearly put it in the grass, and turned with so much speed that it looks like you dragged a wingtip. "Perfect" would be no bounces, center of the runway, and a controlled taxi back to the place where you're supposed to shut off your engine. The touch and go looks to be better aligned with the runway. Being so grainy, it's a bit hard to tell, but it also looks far from perfect.

But anyway, hopefully most people reading this thread will realize that you were lucky to not hurt yourself or someone else and not crash your plane. It's your money, but when I invest several hundred dollars in a new venture, I'll put aside my ego and seek help. I'm quite independent, but I've always prefered to choose a path that has been proven to yield the best results.

My not wanting to wait 30 seconds has noting to do with "the advent of high-speed internet" at all. It has to do with the fact that as a moderator I read hundreds of posts daily. Depending on how much is bears on the conversation I will view some videos, but not all of them. But when it came to your videos I really didn't want to sit and wait. To be totally honest with you, it's more than 30 seconds. The pages on the links you provided are confusing to look at. The first one I went to I looked for 5 minutes or so and could never figure out where to click to view the video, so I just gave up. I only went back to look at them when the discussion here started up. I finally found the link to click on, but it took several minutes to find it. I must say that I understand what Elanasgrumpy was saying, that page is very confusing.

Hosting on the other video hosts is NOT "RCU policy". But simply RCU recommends using them for several reasons. They are free, they are easy to use, and they don't a lot of restrictions on them. You are always free to use whatever video hosting service you prefer. But as said above, if it's difficult to use a lot of people won't use it.

Ken

I can do it on my own, said a guy that came to our field and that was offered help to get started and was told to set up and he would be helped, he set up and took off knocking down a 3000 dollar airplane, he left giving the man a hundred dollar bill for his loss, you probably dont a great job for a beginner but ama and instructors are not putting you down only trying to guide you in the right direction, ama and instructors are your good friend that want to help you not put you down, keep flying it is a great hobby for everyone to enjoy but there is so much more to this hobby then the eye meets or a sim can teach, good luck to you and i hope that you do the right thing.

Just to get the facts straight:

1) I intentionally hugged one side of the runway so that I would have enough room to make a stopping turn. Incedentally, the pilot station is at least 150 feet away from that fence. See aerial photo above.

2) I did not drag a wing even once during the day. I have taxi tested my plane, so I know how it will corner on the ground. Yes, I actually spent an entire afternoon taxing around as a preliminary systems check days before I flew. Like I said before, I was thorough. I've made a 15-point pre-flight checklist that I use before every flight.

3) You're right, I didn't taxi back for shutdown. I taxied to the other end of the runway, turned around, and took off again into the wind. There were no other pilots waiting to fly, so why not?

I did bring her in a little fast, but that was intentional. I want to avoid a tip stall at low altitude until I learn exaclty where the stall envelope for the plane is. I tried performing accelerated stalls at higher altitude, but it never stalled, even with full elevator. Agreed, there was minor bouncing (less than 3 inches), so the landing can't be called 'perfect', but I think it was pretty darn good. Other pilots at the field told me they were astounded at my control of the aircraft.

Yep, I just watched them. I'm still waiting to see a "perfect" landing. I see roughly a 300 foot runway and a 60 size plane using all of it to land so that tells me you are way too fast, way too close the the pilot stations and more...

they are only negative comments because you believe there is nothing wrong with the attitude you have displayed from the very first post and you are unwilling to see another side of this story. Your suggestions to new pilots about do not do this yourself, then you argue the reasons for doing it yourself are completely opposite of each other. You really do not want to hear what I think of the ego you are displaying


This sounds good

No way to see this in a picture.

In the pic you show, it appears that the nose is somewhat low so it is not "precisely" set.

One good thing to see here but it would have been better if you would have mentioned that long before this thread got to this point.

Here is a recommendation for you. Have someone film you from the moment you get the plane together, including fueling and starting procedures until you land and shut it off. Then show us this video and do not edit it at all (there are enough video experts here to tell if you do). Have the person zoom in on the plane while landing/takeoff and at various times during the flight.

Then ask us what we think.

IL2windhawk:

Congratulations on your solo. As stated many times above it is rare when someone is able to solo first flight
with the type plane you did. Again, congratulations and I'm glad you have chosen to join the RC flying ranks.

Please consider joining one of the RC clubs close to you. Sell one of the Mustang's, if necessary, for 1st years dues.
You will never regret it. RC'er's are the greatest people in the world. You will pick up all kinds of useful tips and flying with
someone is thes best.

I have not soloed yet, but the guys both old and young are so good. Everyone wants to help. It's like we are family.

Take heed to some of the above advice from the pro's like RCKen and Mike East and others. They are not
putting you down, but it is out of concern for your safety and the safety of others that they share years
of flying experiences. Remember, even the pros sometimes have accidents and some have been injured.

I like the fact that the members help each other on the flight line with pre-checks, etc. They are constantly another
pair of eyes. I avoided a potential prop injury because someone cared enough about me to mention that
I should not have my neck strap dangling from my neck while tuning the engine. Many other helpful hints and tips
have been freely given which HAS MADE MY RC EXPEREINCE TO DATE MORE ENJOYABLE.

Remember, it only takes 1 second of inattentiveness to wreak havoc.

May the wind always be in your face, the sun to your back and may God's grace rest upon us all.

Funny that you should mention that. Last weekend I was getting ready to maiden flight a plane that I am doing a review on. I had a buddy standing beside me and I handed him the radio to check everything with a second pair of eyes. He pulled back the stick and the elevators moved down!! [X(] yep, had them reversed.

The problem that us poor weak humans have is the more times we look at something the less likely we are to catch a problem. You mind just breezes right over it thinking it's ok, and then the problems is missed from then on. But a fresh pair of eyes will catch the problem in a heartbeat. That's why I ALWAYS have somebody else look at my control surfaces before I fly a new plane, just to double check myself. I've learned a long time ago it's better to ask for help than to bring a plane home in a hefty bag!!

Ken

So, you landed with the wind? Do you often do that with your full scale planes as well? Does that help prevent snapping?

No, I didn't watch the videos because, quite frankly, they are of no interest to me. What is of interest to me is your cavalier attitude about this whole thing. I don't believe that I've ever ruined this hobby for anyone. In fact, I've helped quite a few people get started. I pay my AMA dues, which is what keeps our great hobby going. 58 bucks per year is cheap insurance. It is also cheap congressional lobbying. You don't think there are people out there with deep pockets that would like to have our frequencies so that they could profit from them? In case you are unaware, unsued frequencies are far and few between.

Really. So, if tomorrow you wake up and the humidity is 90%, then you'll just stay home because you don't know how to tune your engine? Such a shame that an ego can get in the way of that.
You say you stay away from clubs because of the people and they way they act toward new-comers. The only new-comers that I've ever seen shunned are the ones that try to do it on their own. I've seen people show up at the field with three airplanes, and take them all home in one trash bag--never to return. If their ego would have only allowed them to get a little help, then they would have saved tremendous amounts of money, and would probably still be in the hobby. I don't see that as ruining the hobby.

Once again, good luck to you and your edge.

I don't think I've ever seen a field where they made the pilots stand 150 feet from the runway to fly. That would cause trouble for people with depth perception problems. In my experience, 15-20 is more the norm. Isn't the fence the thing that divides the runway from the place the pilots are supposed to stand while they're flying?

Anyway, you might want to talk to someone about adjustments you can make to the plane to help slow it down on the ground. Landing slower would help, but I understand your desire to not stall it while your experience level is low. You can slip a piece of fuel tubing on the landing gear wire and then use the collar to adjust the pressure against the wheels. These will act like brakes and help slow down the plane when landing and during taxi. Just make sure you don't put too much friction on the wheels or the plane will nose over. [X(]

In the first post, I was just trying to make one point:
Don't ever let anybody else define what you can and cannot do.

Since this first post, I've been enlightened by the other members to the safety risks
of "going it alone" and of the insurance coverage included with an AMA membership.
I've even humbly acknowledged that I took an inadvertant risk that was "short-sighted".

I very much resent your attacks on my personal character, MODERATOR.
Please allow me to remind you of the rules:
Please resist the urge to curse, flame, degrade, insult or embarrass someone in your post. We encourage the free flow of your ideas, but believe that they can be communicated (and received) much more effectively if you keep things civil. If you have to vent, take it offline. We carefully monitor posts and will ban individuals who engage in offensive conduct within the forums.



Don't let the aircraft's lines or the effect of visual perspective fool you. She's balanced just right.



As I mentioned above, the pilot station is over 150 feet from that fence. Please see the aerial photo.




No, I landed into the winid.
And I never said that I was a full-scale aircraft pilot.
You should read closer before you criticize.



In Utah, the humidty is pretty stable.
But, to address your criticisms, I actually DO know how to re-tune my engine, thanks.
You asked me what I would do if my engine wasn't running properly. If I couldn't
make it run properly, I wouldn't fly. When you asked about the weather changing,
I thought you meant if a storm was blowing in, in which case I would not fly.

My apologies.
By "pilot stand" I thought you were referring to the pilot pit area.
I was trying to make it clear that I didn't land the aircraft that close to spectators.


Thanks for the tip about the fuel tubing.
I'm actually re-engineering the landing gear for better stopping. I'll try that.

Accepted. The reason we're mentioning this is because most of us have been in the situation while flying where planes come so close to us that we started thinking about an escape route, or actually had to escape. In my club I will not fly if certain people are in the air. If they take off while I'm flying I will immediately land and seek shelter. Obviously nobody else was on the flight line at that time, but it's not a good idea to get in the habit of using that part of the runway.

Ken

You are correct, my apologies

accepted.

Thats the truth. I met a guy out at the field last night to help him get his trainer all set for training night. He wanted me to take it up for him and do its test flight as well.

When I started looking at it, we had alot of work to do! Battery and receiver were not tied down in anyway. Wires were haplessly strewn around on top of servos. Antenna was coiled up inside. No foam tape for the wing to sit and seal down on. Control surfaces were not completely covered(Tips were left exposed). Control horns were install incorrectly. The fuel vent was upside down. The clunk line was too long.

Most of it we got fixed up at the field, and we were able to get his engine started. And boy what a PITA that was. I have never tuned/broke in a SuperTigre and it was a pain just to keep it running at first!

Long story short, we spent 3 hours fixing what we could at the field and getting his engine broke in and tuned. I sent him home with about 5 hours of work securing various items and running his antenna out of the back.

There's alot of stuff a beginner just doesn't know about/think about.

Good job on your solo, I solo'ed as well without an instructor, but the next week I was at the field on training night getting instruction and learning alot ... and I hope you do the same!

In addition, most clubs will train you without being a member, but once you solo, they will want you to join up to continue flying there. You might consider getting the training from them.

I learned to fly R/C in an almost identical way as you did. My first plane was an AirCore trainer which I bored of within a week. I moved into various low wing planes within a month (bought from people I knew). I used to fly around in MS FS3.0 - MS FS5.0 and, like you, knew a good bit about aerodynamics. I did live on an Air Force base, so maybe being surrounded by aircraft and pilots constantly helped somehow.

Since then I have never, not once, not ever, lost my orientation on a plane, nor have I ever crashed a plane due to "dumb thumbs". Too bad I was out of the hobby for like, 14 years or so, no telling where I'd be now!

Don't bash the guy. He's intelligent and was able to figure things out for himself that most people have to be taught. Seriously, if you think about it, most everything in our hobby, at least on the hobby level, should be intuition. One should be able to look at the way an elevator moves and figure out what kind of basic effect it is going to have on an airplane.

Frankly, I also prefer to learn things on my own, whether I succeed or fail. You learn more this way. Unless, of course, you are one of those who are easily discouraged by a minor setback.

All of this said, I think that for most people an instructor is the way to go. It's safer (which is the most important aspect) and for most people easier.

Kudos!

Unfortunately that is not the case. To you it may be obvious what is supposed to happen. But as you said earlier you are exposed to aviation so you know what's supposed to happen. But to most people it's not that way. They need to be taught how it is supposed to work. That's how us humans work, we learn things. I for one could say that it should be completely obvious how a VPN (Virtual Private Network) connection should be routed through a firewall into the internal mail server on a TCP/IP network. It's simple....... For me, because that is what I do for a living. Or a doctor could say that how the human heart works is simple and everybody should be able to understand the basics of it. I could go on, but the point I am trying to make is that what is obvious to you is not to other people, and to make assumptions that everybody should be able to understand something is just not correct.

The problem with this is that if a person fails it could injure somebody. An out of control airplane is quite capable of killing somebody.

For those that have been able to teach themselves how to fly, I say congratulations. You deserve a pat on the back. But as I have said earlier in this thread, you are the one out of a thousand that can do that and succeed. But you have to understand why everybody on is making a huge deal over this. While it may have been easy for you, it isn't going to be that easy for everybody. If we didn't make a point of all of the difficulties involved with this hobby we would be doing a disservice to all of the beginners that come here looking for advice. If we didn't' step up on situations like this and make these points a lot of people would walk away from here thinking how easy it is to learn to fly, and then find out the cold hard truth when they are picking up the pieces of their crashed airplane. We are just trying to keep all of those out there grounded in the reality of what the real world is like.

I understand where both of you are coming from. But you have to realize that you may have only seen one beginner (yourself) since you have been in the hobby. Or maybe a few beginners. But you have to realize that between the more experienced members that frequent this forum (Myself, Piper_chuck, Bruce88123, BubbaGates, and others) we have seen hundreds (if not thousands) of students, so we have seen a lot. I can assure you that we have seen all of the types of beginners that there are, all the way from the "timid,doesn't know anything,hangs on your every word, and won't even unload his car without your permission" beginner all the way through to "I fly the real thing, I know every thing about aviation, these are just toys that can't possibly hurt anyone, go away I don't need your help" beginner. We've seen it all. All we are doing here is trying to temper what is being said with a dose of reality for the other beginners that are reading this so that they know how the real world is for them. I do apologize if you thought we were personally attacking either of you, because that isn't what we are doing.

Ken

I don't disagree with you. You have more experience than me, and in that case I will defer to your experience. Safety is key, no doubt.


BTW I think a VPN is very obvious. :P

I just prefer RPC over HTTP with Exchange connections. VPN is nice for a LAN - LAN connection over WAN but for security I usually like to resort to using IPSEC policies internally for things like proxies, web servers and database servers.

You shouldn't use a VPN for a secure connection, at least I wouldn't. Mostly I use VPNs to bypass firewalls and whatnot when I'm trying to do something that my network administrator doesn't necessarily want me to do.