RE: I Dont Have IT
 

dupe

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Forget the sim. They don't even come close to "simulating" what it is really like flying an rc plane. Maybe if they connected electric wires to your nads it would make you alittle more nervous.

You probably did the old "reversed controls coming towards you mix up" for just a second and that is enough when flying a nitro. Even 3 mistakes high it doesn't take but a split second to be rekitted. It is probably the biggest problem for new pilots and it does take alot of flying to overcome that. You still don't have the mindset to be ahead of the plane. Your instructor should have been very keen to this problem and expecting it anytime your on a downwind turn.

A bubby box is not the save all training device. You can still crash using one. However a BB gives your instructor that extra 1 1/2 seconds to recover that may just save your plane.

The PT60 is a good sound trainer. Build another and you'll do alot better having learned what you already have.

skeeter

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I fully understand well ahead of the plane.

but nowI see a PT-60 or high wing trainer closesso fastat training paceI'm not sure the mindset required and stress ofstaying ahead of the plane is appealing to me as enjoyment.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Well it WAS your fault but we all crash them.  I've probably set the RCU Guiness Book of Crash Records.  Best advice they gave me was buy cheap planes, don't name them, don't paint them up pretty, don't fall in love with them.  Go fly, crash it, go fly, crash it.  I've given up lots of times but good people here have cheered me on, offered lessons, points and support.  All reasons I have gone out and bought another plane and gotten better over time.  Not that I'm good but I'm still hanging around despite some moderator that hates me.  Get a cheap "experienced" plane, fly it with some instruction, maybe smack it into firewood and you'll get good enough in time.  Keep on the simulator and no it's NOT the real thing but it will help with dexterity training and orientation, all of which come into play in keeping them in the same number of pieces you brought them to the field in. 

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I TELL YOU stick with you believe in. Don't give up. If you want a good trainer get a SIG LT40. If you believe in the instructor you have great back him all the way, things happen that even a instructor can not prevent[:@]. One thing I can tell you , You will crash it just is when and where. Still a great Hobby when you get in the grove.
Larry K

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

If it's moving at "a quick pace" and in an out of control fashion... and I hate to beat this to death, but that was the responsibility of your so-called instructor to prevent that from happening.

Throttles are not on-off switches. You should be flying it, with an instructor, at no more than half to three-quarters throttle.. no more. Flying slowly to keep on top of things is very important for new student pilots. It makes such events as preventable rather than inevitable.

CGr.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

You bring up great points which made me think about the different mechanical feel and reactions of the RealFlight sim controller and the Futaba Tx...exponential is it? The throttle seemed at half but that PT-60 was kicking itin abanked screaming half circleacrossthe sky towards us.

Totally different feel on the Tx that required instant adaptation in about 20 seconds and three turns of white knuckled flying

good times.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Oh no, I have a few words for you.
If someone tells you he have not crashed, he is even lying or he doesnt fly. I agree with others the only crash that evrybody laughs is when the most experienced pilot do it. All others are understandable and everybody will be supportive of you.
Then you try to find out why it happened and learn from it.
Second, once you accepted the fact you are going to crash, get a beater, an old used trainer. I bought my first one from the LHS on consigment for $100. It was an old Sig but it tought me how to fly.
Third, my instructor told me on the first lesson, (it was ground schooling, we never flew the first day) that while I was on the buddy box if the plane crashed it was his responsibility and he will fix it, or repair it at no cost. That will make you as comfortable as with the simulator and the reset button.
All that said, get the old used plane, go back to the same flying field, get an instructor with a BB and learn the right way so you can stay with us for yrs to come, because we already like you

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Appreciate it.

I am going to look into the other field and see what they to offer.

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For sure! When I was learning, it was on a B.B. and no more than half throttle, with constant attention from my p.f.i ( professional flight instructor):).Please engage a different p.f.i with a B.B. and the results will be in your favor. Like previously mentioned, go back to the same club and hold your head up! we have all been there and done that, and all still crash on occasion.;)

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

AugerDawger back in the day (late 60's/early 70's) before buddy boxes and flight sims, my brother and I built a Graupner Kwik Fly.

We spent the entire winter building a gorgeous model aircraft which emerged from literally a box of sticks.
Back then, we cherished every minute of controlled flight. As it happened, my brother had more stick time on a Carl Goldberg Jr., the Falcon 56 and then a Senior Falcon. We had to deal with North Dakota winters and windy summers. After a long winter my brother took off the Kwik Fly and it was flying great. I begged him to let me fly it, so he handed me the transmitter. I quickly got the Kwik Fly inverted after just a few seconds of flight, pulled what I thought was "up" and totally destroyed months of work.

My brother and I have never forgotten that dark day.

You won't forget this crash, but you need to move on.

When you build a kit, you get emotionally involved and there's was no reset button after a crash.
You need a buddy box, a calm day with the sun at your back, a Sig LT-40 trainer with an O.S. .46 and a good calm instructor.
Even after flying all these years I find flight simulators very helpful.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

:) Man we all have been where your at right now. Wait untill you crash a $4000 airplane and its due to stupidity or something like that :D

Everyone at that field has had this experience. IF they say they havnt, they be lying just a little bit LOL.

The first time you tride to ride a bycicle, Im sure it ended with skined knees or a bruise. Im sure you didnt go to the next neighborhood to try again. Get your plane patched up, and try again :)

Do it with a buddy box, ASK for it this time, and it will all turn out just fine. After your back on the ground and everything is in one piece you will get the congradulatory yeppin and clappin from the guys. A first succesfull flight. And all will be calm in the universe ;)

Dont give up. We need all the new guys we can get into this hobby. Then, pass it down to your kids. This will be a story to tell your son, and grandson, and so on and so on. A life lesson learned and passed on. Dont give up no matter what. :D

WBG

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A few quick thoughts..

I suggest a power glider as well... personal preference as I learned with gliders

All of us have seen new guys show up and trash the first plane ... as well as we have trashed some of our own.

lastly.. you have passed a MAJOR milestone already ..you have crashed a kit built plane and you want more.. that is a STRONG indicator you are going to be around awhile.

either way be safe ,have fun.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

My trainer was an oversized Buzzard Bomshell. A sratch built old timer that had an OS 25 on it and 3 channels. It was the biggest RC plane I had ever seen at the time. Had an 80" wingspan. But only weighed about 3 or 4 lbs. That was 36 years ago. If I got into trouble with it, I just let go of the controls and it corrected itself :) It was originally a free flight design. The man I purchased it from tought me to take off and land with it in one evening. Granted, it pretty much flew itself lol. But I flew it for 5 or 6 years off and on. I cant count the number of planes Ive had since then nor how many I crashed. And Ive flown them all except for turbine.....yet....lol. Youll do just fine :) Keep going.

The powered glider sounds like a perfect pick to me. Will take all the stress off you till you get the basics.

Tip: here is something the old man told me the evening I learned to land by myself. When keeping the plane level coming at you. Push the stick to the wing thats down..... You do that and you dont have to think about left or right :) or if its backwards and stuff like that.

WBG

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Read between the lines people. This individual is pulling your leg. He probably did crash his airplane but I'll bet you that this individual was alone when it happened. I came across the remains of a crash site last week on the dry lake bed the club flys from. I and a few others don't fly with the club since we have our own aerodrome about a 1/4 mile from the club site. The only reason why I found this debri was because it was on our flying site not the clubs. This pass Sunday while flying with members of our group I inquired about my findings. No one new about the incident but it did happen and the lone wolf was the culprit.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

PT-60 is an awsome airplane and a great trainer  [8D]

Your instructor is a DORK  :(

This is why I become an instructor in the first place.  Coming to the field is intimidating enough without having an instructor help you to wreck your plane.  Yes the Tx was in your hands but the instructor never should have handed it over without ever having seen you fly.

As an intructor I have 3 cords: round to round, square to square, and square to round.  And just in case I have a student that is not flying Futaba I have this little gem:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ntroller_.html

I put this and one of my Rx's in the students plane and I am still in control.

I have never had a student crash a plane up to and including solo.  I am on my 5th student in the past 6 months most of them solo in less than 10 sessions and had one solo within 24 hours of his first flight.

When working with a student everything has a purpose instead of aimlessly flying around.  My students learn how to control their planes instead of making corrections for the airplane not being where it is supposed to be.

GET A NEW INSTRUCTOR.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

G'day

Sorry to hear about the prang but sadly, it is all too common. I'd suggest that the "instructor" was expecting a bit too much of a complete newbie to hand over the transmitter on the first flight. I would have insisted on using a buddy cord.

I use my own old Kadet Senior when I am teaching these days. At least until the person can fly a more or less tidy circuit with it then we think of moving on to other models. I also use 5 pitch props to slow things down and I prefer four strokes for their more measured power delivery and ability to run at low throttle all day.

The Kadet Senior is very slow and will fly on most days but as it does not have ailerons, it needs to take off directly into the wind. This is not a problem as with a Saito 62 it is nicely overpowered and can get into the air very quickly if needed. Then it can settle back to about 1/3 throttle to plod slowly around.

The lack of ailerons means that the new student does not have to worry about controlling the roll axis. The plane's dihedral makes it very stable in the roll direction and this is a great help to beginners and older beginners who are having problems.

Once a student can fly the Kadet, we move on to other more capable trainers with ailerons but as we put the Kadet's rudder on the aileron channel, the conversion is very easy.

Hang in there, you will get there. It took me several years to finally be happy with my flying. I do not consider myself an expert but I took so long to get going initially, I have learned a lot about being a beginner.

Cheers

Mike in Oz

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I would not have flown you without the buddy box.....let this be a lesson to all....a simulator ace is not an ace at all....a sim is just a sim...there is no substitute for stick time...
Now I am not picking on the OP......it was the instructor

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

If we were with your life partners atyer privateAerodrome you wouldnt stroll over and call me a liar to my face.

Internet keeps GICat bay

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

This.

A trainer is so blazingly fast....not like the sim at all.

If Iput another plane together Iam going to have buy a new powerplant at the lowest end of the reco range not .60.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I have been flying and instructing for many many years and have always used the buddy box system for as long as is necessary.
Only in the last year or so have I changed over from cable connection betweeh the two Txs. to the wireless connection as described previously. This has been the best gadget for training ever. It is hard to explain but the fact you are not "wired" together appears to give the learner more cofidence, the instructor also appears to have more freedom and can move around the learner and view from different positions. You can also move away a little, always within earshot and this in itself gives the learner more confidence. I was surprised at the results and both instructors and learners seem to enjoy the experience.
Further I have to agree that there is no better model to both learn on and instruct, than the Sig LT40 either powered with a 2 stroke .46.60 4 stroke or electric conversion.
The wireless buddy box set up does entail a vast collection of connectors but done neatly, fits into a LT40 fuselage. It would be a squeeze in a smaller model but then a smaller model is not ideal for a beginner.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

G'day

I agree the LT-40 is a good trainer, though I prefer the old Kit Kadet Senior as a "first trainer".

I am currently teaching a bloke on an LT-40 that I sold him. It originally had an Enya 40SS which flew it perfectly with a 5 pitch prop. Sadly, he decided to "go solo" without me and he crashed it. To add insult to injury, he did not find the engine! It has been rebuilt (mostly by me at his expense) and an OS LA 46 is now in the nose again with a 5 pitch prop. It is very easy to fly and he generally flies it well but just occasionally he looses the plot and I have to save it for him.

This usually happens when he turns from a base leg to line up with the strip. Most beginners seem to hold the turn too long and not level the wings to pull out of the turn and when this happens, they auger into the ground - which is where the buddy cord and a reasonable instructor step in and save the day.

It takes time to get this right. It took me ages so I have sympathy with new fliers.

Then again, I am also currently teaching a 15 year old. After three flights he was doing passable circuits and figure eights and getting the plane lined up with the strip 9 times out of 10. He will solo very quickly. The hard part then will be to teach him the finer points when he just wants to go his own way.

Cheers

Mike in Oz

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Your 60 size plane is not necessarily faster then a 40 size plane. It flies more stable and can handle wind better. I think it's a good choice for a trainer.
Considering the 15 mph wind, I can understand why the plane seems so fast. If you fly with an airspeed of - lets say 30 mph against the wind, your ground speed is only 15 mph. Once you turn it around, it will have a ground speed of 45 mph, three times of what you had before.
Now, the plane does not care about ground speed at all, only the speed it moves relative to the air matters.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I love these stories. It is a view of things from a different point of view. My best part was the wireless training system. I think it is a good idea. I have never seen one or do I know how it works. I do think the person is right when he said it give the student more confidence and the instructor more freedom. Would like to more about this system.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

The PT-60 really isn't all that fast if set up correctly.  Go to a 12 x 5 or a 13 x 5 prop.  Your instructor told you not to touch the left stick, I say learn how to use the left stick IT ALSO CONTROLS THROTTLE.  :D  Most trainers will fly well on1/4 to 1/3 throttle and very seldom over 1/2.  The instructor needs to trim it out on a lower throttle setting so that the plane is more dosile.  By doing this the student learns much faster.  OliverJacob is 100% correct about the wind and the efects on a model.  As a student starting out it is highly recomended not to fly in winds over 7 to 8 MPH.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Unfortunately there are way too many people out there calling themselves "instructors". Many of them do not have the communication skills, the talent , and the disposition to train others. It sounds as if you have stumbled across one of them. Too bad for you.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Oh dear. You've opened a can of worms. Mind you, I quite agree with you.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I'm not doubting that you're accurately retelling your experience, but I'd wager that the trainer really wasn't going as much faster as you thought. We tend to fly farther away from ourselves on the simulator than we do in real life, which makes the plane seem slower. Add to that that nervousness makes everything feel like it's happening faster than it really is, and it makes for a perception of speed that isn't really there.

Here's an exercise that should help. Get on the sim and set it with some wind. Then start thinking about 1/4 circuit in front of the plane so you are ready to do the maneuver you need when the plane gets there. When you find yourself waiting for the plane to come to you, you're doing it right. Then add more wind and keep doing it. It's amazing how much thinking in front of the plane helps not only with the perception of speed but also the nerves of flying.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Reading your words here hit home. I felt the same way just 2 seasons ago. Like I already stated...most of my first flights seemed like they took forever because my thumbs literally shook the entire time!

Trust me when I say this...if you can drive a car, you can learn to eventually fly an RCmodel. The key here is "muscle memory".

You dont have to think about applying the brake on your car. you just do it when you need to stop or slow down. Same thing with the accelorator/gas pedal. You dont think...you just do. If you can drive a manual tranny vehicle. Do you think about changing gears or do you just do it when you feel it needs another gear?

Learning to fly RC is much like that. At some point it will all just become "natural response" of your thumbs(or pinch method if that is what you use). And you wont have to think about it.

Once you get there...it wont be reacting to what the plane is doing...but more making the plane do exactly what you want it to do by just sight. When I fly I dont think about what stick goes what way. I just think about what I want the plane to do, and my thumbs do it without me having to think about the stick input.

And when this happens...you will be having a blast! Also, when this happens...be prepared to start spending money on more models. This hobby is addicting, for sure!

Goodluck...and hang in there!

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

GWS slowstick, taught myself.  Get up at 6 am and go fly in 0 wind.  It doesnt provide any joy for me anymore but since flying it for the first times I've  been desparately searching for a way to reproduce the feeling I had.  Nothing seems to quite fit the bill.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Various events led up to the loss of the bird, but don't lose sleep over it. There are two kinds of flyers, those that have crashed and those that will. It happens.. work through it and you'll be a better flyer, nothing embarrassing about it, at least long term. :)

My first good one was dumb-thumbing an Eratix into the ground while was inverted, right in front of everyone at a fun fly. Just wanted to shrink and slip out of there.. but.. jumped right back into the game. Nowadays its no biggie, unless I happened to dirt nap a 3K+ bird.. then I'd just be pissed...

Simulators are great for developing thumb muscle memory, don't expect them and 'live flying' to jive up with each other. Stay with it!!! Its really gets a lot more fun once it all starts clicking..

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I totally understand, I often wonder if I have it or not, I have been flying for 4-5 years. On my second or third flight I crashed my trainer plane with my "instructor" on the buddy box, he was watching something else, I got low going behind right behind some trees, he took over, gave it full throttle into the ground, he should have never been the club president and instructing (one of those guys that thinks they are the best, buys 75 planes and crashes most of them) but someone else started helping me and we have become very good friends.

Keep at it.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

AugerDawger, that sounds a lot like my first flight, I had raced cars,trucks for years. How hard can flying be. You just add the up/down and no problem.
Well the plane was a 40 size gas trainer and it was trimmed close. I didn't want the preasure of others watching so I went to an empty field, big field and ONLY one tree way off to the left about 300 ft.
So I took off and it took 3/4 of left ail to fly straight. So it was up 200ft 3/4 power so I looked down to adjust the trims, well I trimmed it the wrong way so the plane goes into a hard turn that turns into roll and turn and flys into that tree at 3/4 throttle. Needless to say the motor, servos and receiver were recovered. There was no problem getting them out of the wood as it was all broken.
So I did the same as you. I can't fly. That 3rd direction from driving is hard.
Well I was talked into a foam Zagi and before the first one was to bad to fly I was flying without crashing. It took about 10 flights before I didn't crash at all but now I fly decent.

So dont give it up.
I think flying is the most peaceful things I do now. I enjoy it so much. I can't wait to have that little bit of nerves each weekend.
The idea about "You have to fly in the 10-15mph wind is fine after you have flown 20 times. But take your time and pick your battles right now.
Then you will be able to handle the other challenges.

Good Luck

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I have muscle memory from hours of flight of all types on the sim but it did not translate to the speed of that trainer. I dont have to think about reverse control coordination

I love the Cub or even the Nexstar on the sim...nice slower scale-likerelaxed flight.....plenty oftime to be ahead, well ahead of the aircraft.

My trainer was like flying the rc turbines on realflight.....moving out at a high close rate.

That PT-60 was streakingacross the skyhair on fire.

Ihave a lead on club and possible oppty in the next county....still need a plane which will be a month or so out to complete.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

Don't get discouraged! It will take some time but if you can fly your simulator you WILL be able to fly a real model but as you learned from your experience it is quite different. Remember to throttle back when flying. Your trainer will fly surprising slow so take advantage of that.

GOOD LUCK!
-Sean

PS - I learned to fly (before simulators( with a glider. Mine was a House of Balsa 2 x 4 but any simple 2 channel glider will work. Can't get much slower than that and you get lots of stick time on each flight!! Mine had a little cox .049 with an ounce of fuel to get it up to a few hundred feet but nowadays probably electric is the way to go...

-Sean

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I am an instructor and when flying someone "new" I only fly the plane about 1/2 throttle or so. By doing this it gives the new pilot time to be with the plane and not trying to catch up or stay ahead of it. As he/she gets more use to the plane we advance the power a little more till "I" feel they can fly the plane without playing catch up constantly. Plus I always have them fly 3 or more mistakes high to give "ME" time to recover as not to have a mishap with "their equipment".
Just My 2 cents Worth
Doug

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Don't be so hard on your self. I had the same thing happen 33 years ago. I held the ailerons during a turn with my brand new Falcon 56 Mark II, and Irolled it into a spiral.The instructorcouldn't save it in time, it wasn't his fault.No BB back then. Don't blame yourself or the instructor sh*t happens. It's part of the hobby. Luckly, we built our trainers 30 years back, so I repaired it in a week. As for the suggestions of replacing it with aflying beer coolers. Ilike old school.

Jim

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I have tried a sim and to me it is nothing like the real thing so I dont do it.
Now I have been flying a ParkZone Spitfire. It is foam and it flys quickly.
Most of the time when I am going down wind I have it at 1/4 throttle and go back to 1/2 - 3/4 just before I start my turn up wind.
Then I will use between 1/2 and full throttle depending on what I want to do.
Get something that we survive a cople of crashes. Stay away from wood for now.

Good luck and have fun.<br type="_moz" />

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

I dont really want a styrofoam electric plane......but the idea of being able to fly at a park on your own and not have to go to a club is very appealing.

Again Ifully expect to crash......just didnt expect to crash within 2-3 minutes of the maiden flight and earn the scorn of the club leadership.

I tried to do what I was told...sim, trainer, club, instructor and ended up with little to show for it and nothing to fly.

Maybe boats would be better.

RE: I Dont Have IT
 

It's a stony path en-route to flying competence.

The great majority fall by the wayside ... often because they can't handle the many disappointments.

You've had a bad start. ISTM that you have slightly unrealistic expectations of yourself; and that you got saddled with a duff instructor. That's how I interpret this thread, anyway.

The best way to start is "baby steps". Seek as many advantages as you can.

Good instructor; stable (easy-peasy) aeroplane; kind weather; directed study. That'll do for starters.

There are very few people who "don't have it", but there are huge numbers of people who "never discover it".

It's really tough, I know. You need a bit of luck in finding the right mentors.









Of course, it would be nice to hear the instructor's side of the story.